What do backstabs really add to the game?

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    Sloth9230
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:59 am

    Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

    How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

    Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:06 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

    How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

    Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

    If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
    an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:09 am

    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

    How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

    Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

    If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
    an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

    That's kind of one of the reasons I think BS with heavy weapons should still be possible BUT with the nerfs I said above, again kind of. And don't tell me "stack poise, and attack at the same time duh", because THAT certainly would mean STR builds can only be viable if they stack poise, and that would mean we are taking out variety from the game. See?


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:09 am

    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

    How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

    Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

    If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
    an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

    if they rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:11 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:10 am

    ChizFreak wrote:
    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:That's already been suggested and I agree with it. I don't understand how a BS with some of those big weapons work, you hold a guy in place for a couple of seconds, wind up, and then hit them twice. Unrealistic. While with the smaller weapons it's just a quick thrust through your back.

    Then again, some people argue that DEX already enjoys a huge edge over Strength weapons as it is and this would just be another huge perk going towards DEX. You'd need to give something big weapon users something that would compensate for that.

    Well now I think about it, you're right about that. You should still BE ABLE to backstab with big weapons, but they should have a nerf.

    Rynn what I'm trying to tell you is that they have a purpose, if you don't like the fact they are so powerful, then we can talk about nerfing it, NOT REMOVING IT. I agree that in certain situations Backstabs require a nerf.

    These are my suggestions:

    • Make Hornet's Ring only work in light weapons (Straight Swords, Piercing Swords, and lower, NOT including Curved Swords [they have their own buff which is bleed]).
    • Nerf the damage heavier weapons do on BS, this includes greatswords, curved greatswords, and everything above.
    • In the middle point, the Curved Swords are left, aren't affected by Hornet, but at the same time they don't have a nerf like the heavier weapons do.
    What do you think about these Rynn? All together.
    How about they get auto-counter damage if they hit behind me? Daggers would receive a bigger bonus due to being designed for that purpose. I know that would affect dead angling, but it would be a lot less ******** looking when they lock me into an un-interuptible animation halfway through a battle and steal 66% or more of my life-pool; furthermore a backstab of this variety could still be rolled out of if you saw it coming, rather then our current system that only takes a milisecond, and is greatly assisted by lag.

    How about they still perform the current backstab if I'm not locked on, so that an assassin can still get their major reward, but all these people that just run up in the middle of a battle and use lag to get a free backstab can't do that any longer?

    Furthermore, if an alert enemy could not be backstabbed, PvE would be more difficult, since many players I've seen fight the silver knights in anor londo with backstabs, black knights with backstabs, at the early parts of the game, the balder knights with backstabs...

    I can't think of many enemies you can backstab that players don't just backstab rather then fight when I am summoned to another hosts world, so that's why my OP states it brings nothing positive to either PvE or PvP.
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:14 am

    At the very least the window for backstabs should be a lot smaller, I can get backtabbed from the left, from the right, during a roll, it's almost never even a backstab anymore >.>


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:15 am

    Rynn wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:That's already been suggested and I agree with it. I don't understand how a BS with some of those big weapons work, you hold a guy in place for a couple of seconds, wind up, and then hit them twice. Unrealistic. While with the smaller weapons it's just a quick thrust through your back.

    Then again, some people argue that DEX already enjoys a huge edge over Strength weapons as it is and this would just be another huge perk going towards DEX. You'd need to give something big weapon users something that would compensate for that.

    Well now I think about it, you're right about that. You should still BE ABLE to backstab with big weapons, but they should have a nerf.

    Rynn what I'm trying to tell you is that they have a purpose, if you don't like the fact they are so powerful, then we can talk about nerfing it, NOT REMOVING IT. I agree that in certain situations Backstabs require a nerf.

    These are my suggestions:

    • Make Hornet's Ring only work in light weapons (Straight Swords, Piercing Swords, and lower, NOT including Curved Swords [they have their own buff which is bleed]).
    • Nerf the damage heavier weapons do on BS, this includes greatswords, curved greatswords, and everything above.
    • In the middle point, the Curved Swords are left, aren't affected by Hornet, but at the same time they don't have a nerf like the heavier weapons do.
    What do you think about these Rynn? All together.
    How about they get auto-counter damage if they hit behind me? Daggers would receive a bigger bonus due to being designed for that purpose. I know that would affect dead angling, but it would be a lot less ******** looking when they lock me into an un-interuptible animation halfway through a battle and steal 66% or more of my life-pool; furthermore a backstab of this variety could still be rolled out of if you saw it coming, rather then our current system that only takes a milisecond, and is greatly assisted by lag.

    How about they still perform the current backstab if I'm not locked on, so that an assassin can still get their major reward, but all these people that just run up in the middle of a battle and use lag to get a free backstab can't do that any longer?

    Furthermore, if an alert enemy could not be backstabbed, PvE would be more difficult, since many players I've seen fight the silver knights in anor londo with backstabs, black knights with backstabs, at the early parts of the game, the balder knights with backstabs...

    I can't think of many enemies you can backstab that players don't just backstab rather then fight when I am summoned to another hosts world, so that's why my OP states it brings nothing positive to either PvE or PvP.

    Now we are getting to the point happy. Let's think how to "fix" backstabs. But let's not be extreme and remove them. I think the starting point is that backstabs:

    • Have a purpose and fill a roll in the game, and add depth.
    • Are NOT broken in every aspect, but they could be tweaked in certain situations.
    • And we most agree that heavier weapons should have some kind of nerf when it comes to BSing. In opinion I truly believe "one" of the best choices is what I proposed.


    Now I have to sleep (I'm very tired and it's late here). I will read your suggestions tomorrow happy. Goodnight everyone.


    Last edited by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:15 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:15 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

    How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

    Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

    If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
    an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

    if he rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

    you are wrong
    you can roll bs a poke away spear
    you can poise bs a dex user if he decide to hit and roll
    but if he continue on swinging instead of rolling away, the bs would be cancel
    so its like scissors ,paper and rocks
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:17 am

    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

    How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

    Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

    If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
    an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

    if he rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

    you are wrong
    you can roll bs a poke away spear
    you can poise bs a dex user if he decide to hit and roll
    but if he continue on swinging instead of rolling away, the bs would be cancel
    so its like scissors ,paper and rocks

    Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him happy) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:21 am

    ChizFreak wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

    How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

    Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

    If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
    an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

    if he rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

    you are wrong
    you can roll bs a poke away spear
    you can poise bs a dex user if he decide to hit and roll
    but if he continue on swinging instead of rolling away, the bs would be cancel
    so its like scissors ,paper and rocks

    Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him happy) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.

    what you wrote was good
    but.....
    the current dominant weapons are DEX WEAPON
    and STR weapon need a buff, not a neff
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:25 am

    You can roll BS with any weapon, and even though they take the same skill to execute strength weapons do more damage because? Becuase you happened to be wielding a strength weapon when you did one particular action, that had nothing to do with your choice in weapon.

    In most games grab attacks are cancel-able at the beginning, since backstabs are pretty much grabs, then maybe their should be a way to cancel them if your quick enough.



    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:12 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by BeeSeaEss on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:28 am

    raphael1019 wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

    How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

    Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

    If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
    an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

    if he rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

    you are wrong
    you can roll bs a poke away spear
    you can poise bs a dex user if he decide to hit and roll
    but if he continue on swinging instead of rolling away, the bs would be cancel
    so its like scissors ,paper and rocks

    Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him happy) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.

    what you wrote was good
    but.....
    the current dominant weapons are DEX WEAPON
    and STR weapon need a buff, not a neff


    str weapons do need a nerf, but only for the backstabs, they do not need buffs, you sacrifice quick attacks for big hitting ones that can either sweep, smash, or fling you up into the air. Str builds should learn to fight unlocked imo because those slow attacks can trace in any angle, but locking on to someone will limit it to the exact position of where they were when u are swinging. to counter the "grab" of a backstab all you do is pivote 180* and parry, it is so funny to see those backstabbers fail.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:31 am

    And most people use Dex weapons because they go better with other builds, not necessarily because they're better on their own.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:34 am

    BeeSeaEss wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

    How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

    Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

    If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
    an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

    if he rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

    you are wrong
    you can roll bs a poke away spear
    you can poise bs a dex user if he decide to hit and roll
    but if he continue on swinging instead of rolling away, the bs would be cancel
    so its like scissors ,paper and rocks

    Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him happy) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.

    what you wrote was good
    but.....
    the current dominant weapons are DEX WEAPON
    and STR weapon need a buff, not a neff


    str weapons do need a nerf, but only for the backstabs, they do not need buffs, you sacrifice quick attacks for big hitting ones that can either sweep, smash, or fling you up into the air. Str builds should learn to fight unlocked imo because those slow attacks can trace in any angle, but locking on to someone will limit it to the exact position of where they were when u are swinging. to counter the "grab" of a backstab all you do is pivote 180* and parry, it is so funny to see those backstabbers fail.

    first of all, you think the 22kg demon great axe which force me to either go naked or mid roll should do similar critical damage to a 1 kg dagger?

    and swinging to your back doesn't make you invicible to roll BS
    it somehow depends on how fast your opponent perform the roll BS
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:34 am

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him happy) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.

    The way backstabs are implemented right now is completely wrong. The system needs to be ripped out from the roots and replanted, or not implemented at all with how it's set up...

    But here is my two cents on a strength build, and it's advantages over a dex build.

    With the exception of spears, most dex weapons have the liberty of swinging more often, but when the strength weapon hits; damn does it hurt, and often stun. One of my favorite strength weapons is the Greatsword. It's actually an Ultra-Greatsword, and it does thrust damage. I like to use it's heavy attack and it's rolling attack, especially on dex builds, because dex build users will rush forward and try to get a single hit on you quickly, before rolling away. However the rolling attack is boosted by the leo ring and whacks the Dex user for 1100 damage, and punishes him for being so tragically predictable.

    Other forum members, and myself, have in the past discussed how spears have too little cons for their vast list of positive benefits. While not an undefeatable weapon, spears are clearly overpowered IMHO, and I think some other forum members might agree with me that they are pretty ridiculous weapons.

    Strength builds are reactive builds, while dex builds are active builds. The Strength user should be reacting to the actions of the dex user, and it would only take 1 well timed blow in order to end the dex build's actions.

    Currently however, instead of getting to react, the strength user ends up getting backstabbed. The strength user either continues to get backstabbed by dex users whom instead of striking, try back backstab him, or is forced to counter-backstab them, and then is left with a likely dead opponent due to how rediculously overpowered their backstabs damage was.

    IMHO we'd see more strength builds without the backstab mechanic being the way it currently is.
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:39 am

    raphael1019 wrote:
    BeeSeaEss wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

    How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

    Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

    If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
    an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

    if he rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

    you are wrong
    you can roll bs a poke away spear
    you can poise bs a dex user if he decide to hit and roll
    but if he continue on swinging instead of rolling away, the bs would be cancel
    so its like scissors ,paper and rocks

    Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him happy) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.

    what you wrote was good
    but.....
    the current dominant weapons are DEX WEAPON
    and STR weapon need a buff, not a neff


    str weapons do need a nerf, but only for the backstabs, they do not need buffs, you sacrifice quick attacks for big hitting ones that can either sweep, smash, or fling you up into the air. Str builds should learn to fight unlocked imo because those slow attacks can trace in any angle, but locking on to someone will limit it to the exact position of where they were when u are swinging. to counter the "grab" of a backstab all you do is pivote 180* and parry, it is so funny to see those backstabbers fail.

    first of all, you think the 22kg demon great axe which force me to either go naked or mid roll should do similar critical damage to a 1 kg dagger?

    and swinging to your back doesn't make you invicible to roll BS
    it somehow depends on how fast your opponent perform the roll BS

    Considering it's just as easy to initiate a backstab with a heavy weapon as it is with light weapon, yes I do think they're damage ranges should be closer.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:40 am

    Rynn wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him happy) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.

    The way backstabs are implemented right now is completely wrong. The system needs to be ripped out from the roots and replanted, or not implemented at all with how it's set up...

    But here is my two cents on a strength build, and it's advantages over a dex build.

    With the exception of spears, most dex weapons have the liberty of swinging more often, but when the strength weapon hits; damn does it hurt, and often stun. One of my favorite strength weapons is the Greatsword. It's actually an Ultra-Greatsword, and it does thrust damage. I like to use it's heavy attack and it's rolling attack, especially on dex builds, because dex build users will rush forward and try to get a single hit on you quickly, before rolling away. However the rolling attack is boosted by the leo ring and whacks the Dex user for 1100 damage, and punishes him for being so tragically predictable.

    Other forum members, and myself, have in the past discussed how spears have too little cons for their vast list of positive benefits. While not an undefeatable weapon, spears are clearly overpowered IMHO, and I think some other forum members might agree with me that they are pretty ridiculous weapons.

    Strength builds are reactive builds, while dex builds are active builds. The Strength user should be reacting to the actions of the dex user, and it would only take 1 well timed blow in order to end the dex build's actions.

    Currently however, instead of getting to react, the strength user ends up getting backstabbed. The strength user either continues to get backstabbed by dex users whom instead of striking, try back backstab him, or is forced to counter-backstab them, and then is left with a likely dead opponent due to how rediculously overpowered their backstabs damage was.

    IMHO we'd see more strength builds without the backstab mechanic being the way it currently is.

    what you said make sense

    but

    without BS mechanic
    a Dex weapon user will just roll arround until a STR user attack
    and there is nothing a STR user can do to catch roll
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:43 am

    Then don't attack, patience is key in dark souls.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:45 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    BeeSeaEss wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

    How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

    Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

    If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
    an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

    if he rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

    you are wrong
    you can roll bs a poke away spear
    you can poise bs a dex user if he decide to hit and roll
    but if he continue on swinging instead of rolling away, the bs would be cancel
    so its like scissors ,paper and rocks

    Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him happy) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.

    what you wrote was good
    but.....
    the current dominant weapons are DEX WEAPON
    and STR weapon need a buff, not a neff


    str weapons do need a nerf, but only for the backstabs, they do not need buffs, you sacrifice quick attacks for big hitting ones that can either sweep, smash, or fling you up into the air. Str builds should learn to fight unlocked imo because those slow attacks can trace in any angle, but locking on to someone will limit it to the exact position of where they were when u are swinging. to counter the "grab" of a backstab all you do is pivote 180* and parry, it is so funny to see those backstabbers fail.

    first of all, you think the 22kg demon great axe which force me to either go naked or mid roll should do similar critical damage to a 1 kg dagger?

    and swinging to your back doesn't make you invicible to roll BS
    it somehow depends on how fast your opponent perform the roll BS

    Considering it's just as easy to initiate a backstab with a heavy weapon as it is with light weapon, yes I do think they're damage ranges should be closer.

    no
    the risk you run when BSing with a ultra great and dagger is huge different

    when you pivot BS and miss with an ultra great, you end up doing the stupid smash the ground running attack and is a guarantee BS punish by your opponent
    Dagger on the other hand, could get away like nothing happens

    no the mention when using a dagger, you will have TONES of poise and deffence
    when if you choose to use ultra great, you will have none or 40
    and becoz your are near naked, you suffer hugh risk for being bleed out or poison
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:47 am

    raphael1019 wrote:
    without BS mechanic
    a Dex weapon user will just roll arround until a STR user attack
    and there is nothing a STR user can do to catch roll
    There is this little thing called Up + R1
    It does a little kick animation that stuns.
    Problem solved, the dex guy is now stunned and you can hit him. All animations except for great hammers are fast enough to peg a hit after this.

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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:50 am

    Rynn wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:
    without BS mechanic
    a Dex weapon user will just roll arround until a STR user attack
    and there is nothing a STR user can do to catch roll
    There is this little thing called Up + R1
    It does a little kick animation that stuns.
    Problem solved, the dex guy is now stunned and you can hit him. All animations except for great hammers are fast enough to peg a hit after this.

    u are joking right?
    NONE of the ultra great weapon attack would connect with a kick
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:52 am

    raphael1019 wrote:
    no the mention when using a dagger, you will have TONES of poise and deffence
    when if you choose to use ultra great, you will have none or 40
    and becoz your are near naked, you suffer hugh risk for being bleed out or poison

    the only reason your Armor/poise is so limited is because you want a fast roll.. so you can roll backtab.

    Kicks are the same for all weapons, except curved swords and rapiers as far as I know. And they're pretty effective.


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:53 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:52 am

    Try it sometime. You'll be surprised.
    If you're using the R1, you might not get surprised, but I like to Kick then R2 with a Zwei, or kick then jumping attack with any other ultra-great. The jumping attacks are faster then the R1 and have more stunning power.
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:54 am

    Indeed, the gravelord sword jumping attack and backstep attack are great for punishing. If I can land an attack after that then the match is over.


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:55 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:55 am

    Rynn wrote:Try it sometime. You'll be surprised.
    If you're using the R1, you might not get surprised, but I like to Kick then R2 with a Zwei, or kick then jumping attack with any other ultra-great. The jumping attacks are faster then the R1 and have more stunning power.

    are you on PS3?
    I would like to test this with you

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