What do backstabs really add to the game?

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    Rynn
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    What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Rynn on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:50 pm

    I'm of the honest opinion they add nothing. I'd prefer they were not in the next souls game.
    Can you think of many times where you backstabbed an enemy and they really hadn't seen you? I certainly can't. Backstabs contribute nothing in PvE, except for allowing undergeared players to beat content truly by just circling their opponent until an opportunity to backstab arises. I know I got through a lot of the content on my first playthrough by backstabbing, and I know of several lets plays I've watched where the same happens. And yet, not often do I think I've seen a backstab used for a real assassination.

    Then we have PvP, where backstabs give birth to many players that just circle around, desperately trying to backstab you. Roll-stabs where the player rolls through your attack for a quick and cheap backstab, and of course the major problems where a player stacks poise to tank a single hit to backstab you. While these are all avoidable, it raises the question... Why is a feature that is never used appropriately, in PvE or PvP situations, and rather adds a frustrating and downright unfair tactic to our arsenals included in the game?

    I'd like to see backstabs not included in the next souls release. If a tactic is so powerful that a backstab is considered the only way to counter it, rather it's power should either be scaled back, or it should be adjusted so there is better, and less idiotic counters to it.

    Discuss.
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by LunarFog on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:56 pm

    I think backstabs should still be in the next souls game, since I actually DO use them for assassinations, but it would be fair if they couldn't be used if the other guy was locking on to you, which means that he's aware of your presence and is FOCUSING on you. Hence, the inability to backstab him.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by RedderAI on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:59 pm

    I absolutely hate when the BS mechanic gets abused. In pve and pvp. It reallys just makes everyone who tries to bs you look unskilled. It's boring and I wouldn't mind for it to be completely out of the game.

    On the other hand though, I do enjoy playing as my assassin in Upper Blightown. My build needs BS and ripostes. Except I don't fish for them. I quietly follow them around and when they are entirely distracted or unprepared off I go running for their back. Or I just shoot arrows at them from hard to reach places.

    IMO they need to be tweaked so BS can't be abused anymore.
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:15 am

    I'm getting so sick of seeing these threads. I felt the same way for awhile, then I learned to effectively BS counter, thanks Rant, credit where it's due, and now I actually kind of like it. There are all these players out there, who think they're amazing at the game because they can BS fish well, and I love fighting them now. I never BS unless it's countering a BS attempt, and I've been BSing a lot lately.

    I wouldn't mind if it stuck around in the next souls game, but I'd be happy to see its window shrank enough to not be able to abuse at all.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:20 am

    PlasticandRage wrote:I'm getting so sick of seeing these threads. I felt the same way for awhile, then I learned to effectively BS counter,
    That isnt the point of my OP... my point is... why is backstabbing in the game in the first place? It accomplishes nothing, and it's harming variety to the game in a lot of ways. If a feature is only ever exploited, and is never or rarely used appropriately, that says a lot about the feature to me. Do you think it's actually contributing anything in the game for it to stay around as is.

    Quote the Raven
    While these are all avoidable, it raises the question... Why is a feature that is never used appropriately, in PvE or PvP situations, and rather adds a frustrating and downright unfair tactic to our arsenals included in the game?
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Glutebrah on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:21 am

    they add a way to beat gankers.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:23 am

    I gotta admit.... I suck at backstabs in all shapes and forms, same thing with ripostes. That being said, I wouldn't mind if they stayed, though I sure would be happy if backstabs were gone, or a hell of a lot weaker.

    And you're right Rynn, it doesn't really contribute anything. If someone wants havels ring early then they better learn to riposte, instead of just cheesing the poor guy over and over.


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:24 am

    Glutebrah wrote:they add a way to beat gankers.
    I find a lot more success killing gankers with things other then the backstab.
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:28 am

    I think they do. If I'm fighting someone who isn't being a cheap ***. In other words someone whose having an honorable fight with me, I use it the way I feel it was intended, which is to punish stupid things, and in return, be punished for doing stupid things. Under that logic, it helps me to be a better player, by teaching me to not do stupid things.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Glutebrah on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:38 am

    Rynn wrote:
    Glutebrah wrote:they add a way to beat gankers.
    I find a lot more success killing gankers with things other then the backstab.

    not everyone has a magic build, or wants to play magic.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:45 am

    I still find more success at it without backstabs.
    http://mmdks.com/i0s
    One of my favorite ganker hunting builds. Two Poison Mists that I usually use to mess around.
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Carphil on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:58 am

    Rynn wrote:I still find more success at it without backstabs.
    http://mmdks.com/i0s
    One of my favorite ganker hunting builds. Two Poison Mists that I usually use to mess around.

    But its still not the same thing. Its far more dificult to beat 3 at once without magic or backstabs. Possible? Yes. But very dificult.


    The only thing they should remove is chain backstab

    I'm guilty on this. Everytime I see a host healing, my next step its to chain BS. I don't even think anymore, its in auto-mode.

    Its a great way to deal with healers, but thats why you have Loyds talismans. And if they are spamming divine blessings, the BB glitch was removed, so they can't stack 99 again. (I think so, there is so many glitches about this) and humanity is slow as the miracle.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:18 am

    yea
    I agree with op
    people who swing a katana or poke with a spear and roll away are highly honorable skillful expert of Dark Soul
    and people who roll BS are hopeless noob
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:22 am

    Balance.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:26 am

    raphael1019 wrote:yea
    I agree with op
    people who swing a katana or poke with a spear and roll away are highly honorable skillful expert of Dark Soul
    and people who roll BS are hopeless noob
    I don't think I called a backstabber any names. I mention both PvP and PvE in my post.

    Please read the post for it's contents, not for some invisible insinuation you feel I must have meant. I only mean exactly what is written.
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:35 am

    You'd still need some sort of a mechanic in place (were you to get rid of the BS) to punish enemies (in both PvE and PvP) who give their back to you.

    It is exploitable and it does needs a major overhaul but it fills an important role. If it didn't exist then it would only encourage even more reckless plystyles and, not to mention, mage builds would be even more powerful.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by raphael1019 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:37 am

    Rynn wrote:
    raphael1019 wrote:yea
    I agree with op
    people who swing a katana or poke with a spear and roll away are highly honorable skillful expert of Dark Soul
    and people who roll BS are hopeless noob
    I don't think I called a backstabber any names. I mention both PvP and PvE in my post.

    Please read the post for it's contents, not for some invisible insinuation you feel I must have meant. I only mean exactly what is written.

    it is clearly stated in your 2nd paragraph that
    a BS is cheap, unfair, inappropriate and frustrating
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:41 am

    Rynn wrote:
    PlasticandRage wrote:I'm getting so sick of seeing these threads. I felt the same way for awhile, then I learned to effectively BS counter,
    That isnt the point of my OP... my point is... why is backstabbing in the game in the first place? It accomplishes nothing, and it's harming variety to the game in a lot of ways. If a feature is only ever exploited, and is never or rarely used appropriately, that says a lot about the feature to me. Do you think it's actually contributing anything in the game for it to stay around as is.

    Quote the Raven
    While these are all avoidable, it raises the question... Why is a feature that is never used appropriately, in PvE or PvP situations, and rather adds a frustrating and downright unfair tactic to our arsenals included in the game?

    That's the problem, it's not an exploit. It's a feature. You must learn to counter it. I know lots of feature that sound like exploits but they are certainly understandable and add depth to the gameplay. Like the un-avoidable stunlock: Kick+attack of Falchion on the left hand. It may sound like an exploit but it's not.

    Backstabs are there as a tool, for sneaky or light players that dodge every attack and go up to your back because you full of armor and can resist most weapons. Backstabs ARE NOT only for assassinations. They were invented in the old RPG games for a reason, to prove armor is not all, and skill matters. Doing a roll-BS takes some skill, avoid being roll-BSed takes the same amount of skill, now, BSing a good player that knows how to Roll-BS, that's requires more skill.

    I just can't explain it more without going in circles: it's about a character being faster than you, so he can dodge your attacks and go to your back and attack you from there. BS as an animation exist because that way ultra-tanks won't poise that attack from the back and just attack at the same time again while facing backwards where you are.

    That's the point of thieves in RPGs. Dodge the opponent's attacks and attacking at the right time, in DkS the right time is backstabbing an opponent after they swing. It's not just assasinations and I think you're blinded by that fact, that you only want BS to exist when your target haven't detected you when that doesn't make sense and it's possible in Third Person games. Backstabs existed always both from assassins and from guys dodging attacks.

    Think of: WoW, the Rogue has both the ability to backstab while being stealth (having an ultra bonus of damage) and backstab while not being stealth (lower bonus), the point is that in an actual fight, you can't backstab your opponent because he is always facing you (I mean mobs controlled by AI). Now when it comes to real people, they make mistakes, they may give you their backs at some point and that's when you can take advantage of your speed and critical ratio, and it's completely fair.


    Last edited by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:47 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:45 am

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:You'd still need some sort of a mechanic in place (were you to get rid of the BS) to punish enemies (in both PvE and PvP) who give their back to you.

    It is exploitable and it does needs a major overhaul but it fills an important role. If it didn't exist then it would only encourage even more reckless plystyles and, not to mention, mage builds would be even more powerful.

    That's exactly what I mean, it's explotaible (I don't consider it an exploit, but I know what you mean with that and I agree), but it FILLS a role, it has PURPOSE.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:48 am

    I don't mean an exploit like the DWGR skip Ceaseless Dischargew trick, but I think you understood that.

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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:49 am

    Getting backstabed by a thief makes sense, getting backstabbed by a guy in full Havels using a Black Knight great axe.. no

    Maybe if backstabs were limited to certain weapons they wouldn't be such a problem.

    Like maybe straight swords and lower.


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:52 am

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Rynn wrote:
    PlasticandRage wrote:I'm getting so sick of seeing these threads. I felt the same way for awhile, then I learned to effectively BS counter,
    That isnt the point of my OP... my point is... why is backstabbing in the game in the first place? It accomplishes nothing, and it's harming variety to the game in a lot of ways. If a feature is only ever exploited, and is never or rarely used appropriately, that says a lot about the feature to me. Do you think it's actually contributing anything in the game for it to stay around as is.

    Quote the Raven
    While these are all avoidable, it raises the question... Why is a feature that is never used appropriately, in PvE or PvP situations, and rather adds a frustrating and downright unfair tactic to our arsenals included in the game?

    That's the problem, it's not an exploit. It's a feature. You must learn to counter it. I know lots of feature that sound like exploits but they are certainly understandable and add depth to the gameplay. Like the un-avoidable stunlock: Kick+attack of Falchion on the left hand. It may sound like an exploit but it's not.

    Backstabs are there as a tool, for sneaky or light players that dodge every attack and go up to your back because you full of armor and can resist most weapons. Backstabs ARE NOT only for assassinations. They were invented in the old RPG games for a reason, to prove armor is not all, and skill matters. Doing a roll-BS takes some skill, avoid being roll-BSed takes the same amount of skill, now, BSing a good player that knows how to Roll-BS, that's requires more skill.

    I just can't explain it more without going in circles: it's about a character being faster than you, so he can dodge your attacks and go to your back and attack you from there. BS as an animation exist because that way ultra-tanks won't poise that attack from the back and just attack at the same time again while facing backwards where you are.

    That's the point of thieves in RPGs. Dodge the opponent's attacks and attacking at the right time, in DkS the right time is backstabbing an opponent after they swing. It's not just assasinations and I think you're blinded by that fact, that you only want BS to exist when your target haven't detected you when that doesn't make sense and it's possible in Third Person games. Backstabs existed always both from assassins and from guys dodging attacks.

    Think of: WoW, the Rogue has both the ability to backstab while being stealth (having an ultra bonus of damage) and backstab while not being stealth (lower bonus), the point is that in an actual fight, you can't backstab your opponent because he is always facing you (I mean mobs controlled by AI). Now when it comes to real people, they make mistakes, they may give you their backs at some point and that's when you can take advantage of your speed and critical ratio, and it's completely fair.

    @Chiz: So your argument to me asking why this is even a feature, is to tell me it's a feature and to learn to counter it? What is this?

    Backstabs were made so that a person could exploit lag to get a free hit for two thirds of your HP, that is once procced completely unavoidable and without any ability to react to?

    Backstabs are implemented horribly in this game. Imagine if in your WoW example, that rogue could proc the ultra bonus to damage even without being in sneak mode. That's what we have here. We have a massive damage bonus that is easily exploited. We have a feature that is so powerful and so easy to use that every strategy has to revolve around it in PvP, and in PvE it's the primary tactic people use for slaying mobs (that can be backstabbed)

    As implemented backstabs are not a positive contribution to Dark Souls.
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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:53 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:Getting backstabed by a thief makes sense, getting backstabbed by a guy in full Havels using a Black Knight great axe.. no

    Maybe if backstabs were limited to certain weapons they wouldn't be such a problem.

    Like maybe straight swords and lower.

    That would require a serious revamp of all the heavier weapons.

    And why it's not right? If you're foolish enough (supposing it wasn't a mistake silly, thus being your fault and still deserving it) why shouldn't be able to punish you giving him your back?


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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:53 am

    That's already been suggested and I agree with it. I don't understand how a BS with some of those big weapons work, you hold a guy in place for a couple of seconds, wind up, and then hit them twice. Unrealistic. While with the smaller weapons it's just a quick thrust through your back.

    Then again, some people argue that DEX already enjoys a huge edge over Strength weapons as it is and this would just be another huge perk going towards DEX. You'd need to give something big weapon users something that would compensate for that.

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    Re: What do backstabs really add to the game?

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:58 am

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:That's already been suggested and I agree with it. I don't understand how a BS with some of those big weapons work, you hold a guy in place for a couple of seconds, wind up, and then hit them twice. Unrealistic. While with the smaller weapons it's just a quick thrust through your back.

    Then again, some people argue that DEX already enjoys a huge edge over Strength weapons as it is and this would just be another huge perk going towards DEX. You'd need to give something big weapon users something that would compensate for that.

    Well now I think about it, you're right about that. You should still BE ABLE to backstab with big weapons, but they should have a nerf.

    Rynn what I'm trying to tell you is that they have a purpose, if you don't like the fact they are so powerful, then we can talk about nerfing it, NOT REMOVING IT. I agree that in certain situations Backstabs require a nerf.

    These are my suggestions:

    • Make Hornet's Ring only work in light weapons (Straight Swords, Piercing Swords, and lower, NOT including Curved Swords [they have their own buff which is bleed]).
    • Nerf the damage heavier weapons do on BS, this includes greatswords, curved greatswords, and everything above. From Greatswords they have their own nerf, and going above the nerf is stronger. The point is to make BS of big weapons still possible not because they do lot of damage but as an option to punish an opponent giving you his back. NEVER be as strong as a light weapons, and not even think about light weapons with hornets.
    • In the middle point, the Curved Swords are left, aren't affected by Hornet, but at the same time they don't have a nerf like the heavier weapons do.
    • Still there are certain weapons which are just too strong, like the Balder Side Sword buffed is too strong IMO.


    What do you think about these Rynn? All together.


    Last edited by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:02 am; edited 1 time in total


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