To make or break: Vehicles?

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    Vehicles

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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by ComaPrison on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:13 pm

    Sir Zero wrote:I really like the idea of exploring the world while on a chariot so could be cool

    Vehicles, yay!

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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:17 pm

    Is that a Chocobo?


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by ComaPrison on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:22 pm

    Sir Zero wrote:I really like the idea of exploring the world while on a chariot so could be cool

    Your wish shall be granted.

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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:37 pm

    I won't have any complaints if done well. Hopefully they will add new faster mobs to really increase the pace of combat.


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by ComaPrison on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:52 pm

    Buggy Virus wrote:I won't have any complaints if done well. Hopefully they will add new faster mobs to really increase the pace of combat.

    lol that's a pretty huge if
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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by Solid Knight on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:07 am

    I voted no. Vehicles have me me worried. Consider the level design in Dark Souls. Where in the hell would a chariot be able to maneuver? Vehicles, player controlled or otherwise, are a major game changer. Vehicles always sound fun initially but in my experience, when you take a game that was never designed with them since inception, it just makes the game go south.

    Cases in point:
    * SOCOM 3 -- Changed gameplay completely; lost the feel of the previous games.

    * Zelda -- Does nothing more than create boring, empty spaces to traverse.

    Now people might scoff at the idea of using SOCOM as an example but let me explain why. SOCOM was a game that revolved around relatively small maps that were dense in content and full of tight spaces. This isn't unlike Dark Souls in terms of level design on a macro level. In order to accomodate vehicles maps had to be bigger--much, much bigger. Bigger maps changed the pacing and dynamics of combat to a great degree. The degree in which it was changed pretty much eliminated the "SOCOM feel". It was a totally different game and nobody wanted that. SOCOM used to be fairly popular. Where is it now? No where.

    It's in my opinion that when you have it, you have it. You need only produce new content and make minor improvements to gameplay. Some people whine about not "innovating" or "changing things up" or "growing". Let me tell you, those things aren't always what you need to do to succeed. Consider Call of Duty. Everyone derides the game for being a rehash of previous releases. But consider this: record sales every release and the playerbase is just as big as it ever was. Sometimes staying the course is the best option. In my opinion, Dark Souls would do better if they stayed the course. People are warming up to the series. Trying to force the growth through change is too risky especially when it already experienced growth while only making minor changes (besides world design).
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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:15 am

    If they used Assasin Creeds or Red Dead Redemptions Horse mechanics, I wouldn't mind that much. But god, please no prince of persia!


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by Solid Knight on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:57 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:If they used Assasin Creeds or Red Dead Redemptions Horse mechanics, I wouldn't mind that much. But god, please no prince of persia!

    Red Dead Redemption has sprawling maps. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls has mostly confined spaces. It's a completely new approach to map design which in turn is a completely new approach to combat overall as the spacing issue is different.
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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by eminusx on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:32 am

    Like any changes or additions they need to seriously consider how it will affect the core gameplay, the only feasible way in my eyes would be as a means of fast travelling or to introduce some enemies on horseback or in carriages, this wouldnt stray from the overall design or feel of DS. The main problem is that the verticality of DS doesnt lend itself to vehicles so the map will have at least some more typically flat areas which doesnt sit too confortably with me, the verticality was one of the true innovations of DS in my view, it really emphasised that claustrophobic, impending doom feel, so i'd hope it remains in some aspect!

    But I do like the fact that they are thinking about water based locations as an addition, it could be really effective if done right (thought about that myself a while back, as below), and in fairness he said that boats could be introduced but wouldnt likely be controllable. . .which kinda makes me think that theyre at least putting some thought into how and why theyre making changes or adding new elements, and not just throwing in stuff that seems cool at first but would upset the tone of the DS series, thankfully.


    also, I wrote something on here ages ago about possible new souls locations and water seemed like it would fit quite nicely:
    eminusx wrote:

    . . a deserted trading post / seaport, it hints at its gloriously exotic past in the tattered banners and lighthouse where someone or something keeps the torch lit. . there are a number of seemingly empty, decrepit old galleons that are linked to eachother at various levels along the dockside, in the bowels of the galleons, creatures have made their way in from the sea, lured by the light of the impending stone tower. Think New Londo with Galleons, maybe one huge gothic galleon? leading to. . .

    ... a european style gothic chateau, half of which is dilapidated and has fallen into the ravine and the sea below. The path up is a spaghetti of make-shift towers and platforms jutting out of the rockface. .

    . . a maze that sits up the side of a volcano, at the top of the volcano is an iron smelting works that uses the lava as its furnace, occasionally spillages burn their way down the mountainside and cut paths through the maze.


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by eminusx on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:48 am

    Solid Knight wrote:Sometimes staying the course is the best option. In my opinion, Dark Souls would do better if they stayed the course. People are warming up to the series. Trying to force the growth through change is too risky especially when it already experienced growth while only making minor changes (besides world design).

    nail on the head!! I couldnt agree more mate, DS is pulling in new fans all the time because its different, people appreciate its depth and audacity, making it more mainstream seems like shooting yourself in the foot, betraying the virtues that brought success in the firstplace!
    Nobody is saying they cant add new ideas, but they have to be sympathetic to the core of the game, crucially it needs to feel dark and perilous like DS.


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:20 am

    i could see an npc giving the player a lift on a wagon or something or a fat dude with a huge axe bearing down on the player while riding a giant hog, but no direct control by the player or invaders, maybe make special "unhorsing" animations for mounted enemies (like the special plunging attack animations) then depending on the vehicle it'll either attack you if its a beast or sit there if its a contraption, if the player takes to long to kill the rider or destroy the mount/ vehicle the rider mob can re mount and become super deadly once again.


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by Mr. Tart on Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:44 am

    That would have to depend. I believe most people would think that adding vehicles or mounts would ruin the Souls Series, but i actually think it could be a good idea if they managed to make the worlds larger and more open than they currently are. Because in the current state, the maps in the Souls Series have not proven to be ''vehicle friendly''. I would love to see that along with a more open world though.


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by eminusx on Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:39 am

    the world should be open like DS, not checkpointed like DeS, but it needs that spiraling verticality like DS I think, that contributed a lot to the character and atmosphere I think, be a shame to see it flatten out. Dark looming towers ftw


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by Nybbles on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:49 pm

    there are many games where having vehicles is a welcome addition, CoDBlops, BF3 etc. but i just don't see it fitting into a Dark Souls style of game play. like what was said earlier, if vehicles are an option for players, then the entire game has to be designed around that fact, meaning bigger sprawling maps ala Elder Scrolls, which is just empty space and filler "look how gigantic our world is!" yeah thats nice, but it takes forever to get from one location to another with not much in between and it bores me.

    but the designers have already said that Dark Souls II will be about the same size as Dark Souls I. if this is true, then it seems like there just isn't any room for players to traipse about on some sort of transportation like a horse or chariot. this isn't Final Fantasy, we don't need a Chockobo to get around on. which leaves vehicles being left on the rails, possibly a boat or coach that will carry the player from one place to another ala the lordvessel, in which case, why point it out as a feature?

    there was a vehicle section in Dark Siders that i quite enjoyed, where you galloped around a large desert like arena. but it didn't appear until much later in the game and it was specific to that one spot. it was fun, but it was also wasted because you only had the one opportunity to take advantage of having a horse. Dark Souls II could easily afford to have such an event in it's design, but it will end up as a one of instance during the game, and why give us the option only to limit it's use during a specific sequence? it would end up feeling superfluous.

    the other thing that might happen is to have mobs or bosses riding around on horses or chariots which could be super challenging and really fun. perhaps you have to knock them off first before you can actually fight them properly or some such. while this might be a part of the design, i got the impression that what they were talking about was vehicles that are used for the players…so we return to the above arguments.

    i suppose their is also the option of having a flying mount, such a s a gryphon or something, this would open up a whole new style of play while not necessarily having to redesign the whole game. but i have my fears concerning this style of event in that it would likely end up as an aerial dog fight on rails. like so many other games have done already, Dark Siders had this as well, the worst part of that game imo.

    something else that might happen is an arena style battle that is set up like a Roman Circus or Jousting or some such. i don't know if this would fit in with the regular design or theme of the game, it might work like the DLC arenas currently do, a special area you access for a new type of duel. some might really like this, but i'm not sure that it would be a selling point for me though.

    so while i'm confused and uncertain about what they mean by "vehicles" i will withhold my judgement until we know what they actually have in mind. still, i have trouble seeing how it could possibly turn out to be a positive addition to Dark Souls.
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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by Seignar on Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:04 pm

    Fair points are made. Dark Souls is way to cramped to make effective use of vehicles and to allow the player to use vehicles might unbalance the game. Like I said, I can only see vehicles being used by mobs as a method of offense (Horse kicks, rams, spear lunges, etc) and defense (Have to take down vehicle to get to rider, immune to backstabs).

    So I think that vehicles would be an awesome move for Dark Souls if they were used as a type of "danger" for the player, like hollows getting on horses when they see you, making life difficult for you. Despite Dark Souls is cramped for vehicle travel, there is plenty of space to make adequate use for vehicles as combat tools (The armored boar in Undead Parish, Anor Londo, Blighttown, Before Crystal Forest, Ash Lake, Most boss areas, etc.). I can't find it hard to imagine vehicles as combat-only features.

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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by eminusx on Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:30 pm

    armored boar riders. . . nice

    plated-up Sif cubs?


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by Seignar on Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:00 pm

    I was thinking more of:

    Armored/Unarmored Boars
    Armored/Unarmored Horses
    Chariot Riders
    Drake Riders (I would say their design get changed so they can fit the picture as mounts better)

    ...and whatever new creature they might think of. Imagine having any spearmen or Black Knight in those things.

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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by Sloth9230 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:07 pm

    In Castlevania LOS you could mount Wargs and other enemies, that's be pretty cool though I don't think that would work out to well for this series. It would be cool to see someone riding a warg though.


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by MoGuNZ on Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:30 am

    I would agree that in the case of boss battles and such, yes riding on a horse to keep up with a fast moving boss or having to fight off enemys while in a carage would be intresting but I don't see how having a horse (or whatever animal they pick) to just ride around on would do anything but hurt the experience. I vote no


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by ComaPrison on Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:42 am

    I hope they give us a flying dragon mount that can breathe fire. A Kalameet of our own, so to speak. Instead of it being only for a boss battle, they could let us ride it everywhere and at all times.


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by eminusx on Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:51 am

    ComaPrison wrote:I hope they give us a flying dragon mount that can breathe fire. A Kalameet of our own, so to speak. Instead of it being only for a boss battle, they could let us ride it everywhere and at all times.

    with all due respect that would totally ruin Dark Souls. making everything instantly accessible from the air would make the world feel very small and would detract from its overarching, menacing atmosphere. The environment itself is a huge character in the game, anything that belittles it is a no-no


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by ComaPrison on Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:23 am

    eminusx wrote:
    ComaPrison wrote:I hope they give us a flying dragon mount that can breathe fire. A Kalameet of our own, so to speak. Instead of it being only for a boss battle, they could let us ride it everywhere and at all times.

    with all due respect that would totally ruin Dark Souls. making everything instantly accessible from the air would make the world feel very small and would detract from its overarching, menacing atmosphere. The environment itself is a huge character in the game, anything that belittles it is a no-no

    Okay, how about a DeLorean DMC-12 with all its associated powers. Or better yet, Kalameet riding a DeLorean.


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by eminusx on Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:28 am

    ComaPrison wrote:
    eminusx wrote:
    ComaPrison wrote:I hope they give us a flying dragon mount that can breathe fire. A Kalameet of our own, so to speak. Instead of it being only for a boss battle, they could let us ride it everywhere and at all times.

    with all due respect that would totally ruin Dark Souls. making everything instantly accessible from the air would make the world feel very small and would detract from its overarching, menacing atmosphere. The environment itself is a huge character in the game, anything that belittles it is a no-no

    Okay, how about a DeLorean DMC-12 with all its associated powers. Or better yet, Kalameet riding a DeLorean.

    That would be better, now if Ricki Lake was sat in the car, that would be fu(kin amazing!


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by Xero on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:25 am

    I always wanted to mount Gwynevere.


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    Re: To make or break: Vehicles?

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:24 am

    I think it would be a clever Miyazaki type troll if there was some kind of vehicle that you could mount early in the game but it was broken, and an in game message hinted that it might be possible to use, but it's not.

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