So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:18 pm

    There is no definite line there, it is an opinion and thus not suited for use as evidence that a change is needed.

    The entire purpose of competitive play is to win. The best way to win is to stack as many advantages on your side as possible. Just because its an easy advantage to gain, should it be passed over? Thats hardly a reasonable argument.

    To borrow from other sources, a real problem is when there is a broken element. A broken element is defined as: a item/character/tactic that is so powerful as to centeralise the game around stopping that 1 thing. The example given was arceus from pokemon. Where arceus is involved, the entire focus of the party of 6 has to be "not being mualed by arceus." The best way to do that, is to use arceus, thus requiring every team to have an arceus or lose.

    There are no such elements in dks (though some come close), everything has counters and nothing makes every match a race to exploit that one tactic/weapon/magic. Similarly, no one build is so powerful as to require


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:19 pm

    Every other build to be built with the sole focus of stopping the former build.

    Without such an element, there is nothing wrong with doing whatever it takes to win.

    I'm not saying the game is well balanced, its not, but no 1 thing is so powerful that its use or users need be banned to protect the integrity of the competitive nature of the game.

    This leaves try hard as a useless term for people the user doesn't like.


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Glutebrah on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:22 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:There is no definite line there, it is an opinion and thus not suited for use as evidence that a change is needed.

    The entire purpose of competitive play is to win. The best way to win is to stack as many advantages on your side as possible. Just because its an easy advantage to gain, should it be passed over? Thats hardly a reasonable argument.

    To borrow from other sources, a real problem is when there is a broken element. A broken element is defined as: a item/character/tactic that is so powerful as to centeralise the game around stopping that 1 thing. The example given was arceus from pokemon. Where arceus is involved, the entire focus of the party of 6 has to be "not being mualed by arceus." The best way to do that, is to use arceus, thus requiring every team to have an arceus or lose.

    There are no such elements in dks (though some come close), everything has counters and nothing makes every match a race to exploit that one tactic/weapon/magic. Similarly, no one build is so powerful as to require

    eh, what is the counter to a Spear besides a spear when played in this fashion.

    1. Only R1 attack
    2. Only R1 attack when enemy is max range
    3. Never R1 more then once
    4. Always Flip away after R1 attack.
    5. Never move towards enemy


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Sloth9230 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:27 pm

    Glutebrah wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:There is no definite line there, it is an opinion and thus not suited for use as evidence that a change is needed.

    The entire purpose of competitive play is to win. The best way to win is to stack as many advantages on your side as possible. Just because its an easy advantage to gain, should it be passed over? Thats hardly a reasonable argument.

    To borrow from other sources, a real problem is when there is a broken element. A broken element is defined as: a item/character/tactic that is so powerful as to centeralise the game around stopping that 1 thing. The example given was arceus from pokemon. Where arceus is involved, the entire focus of the party of 6 has to be "not being mualed by arceus." The best way to do that, is to use arceus, thus requiring every team to have an arceus or lose.

    There are no such elements in dks (though some come close), everything has counters and nothing makes every match a race to exploit that one tactic/weapon/magic. Similarly, no one build is so powerful as to require

    eh, what is the counter to a Spear besides a spear when played in this fashion.

    1. Only R1 attack
    2. Only R1 attack when enemy is max range
    3. Never R1 more then once
    4. Always Flip away after R1 attack.
    5. Never move towards enemy

    Poison, it doesn't really do much but most players tend to panick and get sloppy lol


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:29 pm

    bow, stealth, magic, washing pole. I hate spears with a passion, but they do not necessitate the sole focus of a build to be stopping spears for one to overcome them.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Glutebrah on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:35 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:bow, stealth, magic, washing pole. I hate spears with a passion, but they do not necessitate the sole focus of a build to be stopping spears for one to overcome them.

    i can not accept bows as an acceptable counter, you know how easy it is to roll side to side at a distance to never get hit once.

    washing pole has less reach then a spear, magic can be dodged easily at range with DWGR, but magic would be your only chance, but requires an error to be made by the spear user, or lag.

    and i was talking a duel setting like in the arena. i don't know how the arena is now, but when DLC first came out every single person had a Spear because it was required, just like your pokemon example.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Rynn on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:45 pm

    Glutebrah wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:There is no definite line there, it is an opinion and thus not suited for use as evidence that a change is needed.

    The entire purpose of competitive play is to win. The best way to win is to stack as many advantages on your side as possible. Just because its an easy advantage to gain, should it be passed over? Thats hardly a reasonable argument.

    To borrow from other sources, a real problem is when there is a broken element. A broken element is defined as: a item/character/tactic that is so powerful as to centeralise the game around stopping that 1 thing. The example given was arceus from pokemon. Where arceus is involved, the entire focus of the party of 6 has to be "not being mualed by arceus." The best way to do that, is to use arceus, thus requiring every team to have an arceus or lose.

    There are no such elements in dks (though some come close), everything has counters and nothing makes every match a race to exploit that one tactic/weapon/magic. Similarly, no one build is so powerful as to require

    eh, what is the counter to a Spear besides a spear when played in this fashion.

    1. Only R1 attack
    2. Only R1 attack when enemy is max range
    3. Never R1 more then once
    4. Always Flip away after R1 attack.
    5. Never move towards enemy
    Simple. Don't engage. The spear user can do nothing unless you engage. Once they attempt to engage you, you can attack them back. If they are poking, the shotel.
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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:47 pm

    The r2 has longer reach than most spears, the arena has pillars, thus allowing stealth (especially in the form of fire tempest or twop), a well timed wog will hit them as thay exit their roll, the mlgs r2 is aoe and can tag them exiting a roll, bows can quickscope, and they give you control over the range, The lava from a well placed gcfb will hit them as they exit a roll.

    Numerose things other than spears can deal with spears ably. They do necessitate a way to counter them, but so does every powerful tactic.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Emergence on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:48 pm

    I understand what it is to be presented with a setup that is powerful and seemingly demanding of exceptional tactics to overcome. Everything has a counter yes, but not all counters are created equal. However, it's one thing to identify that distention and then another to cross over into vitriol and label the people who use those tactics with words like "housewives" and "tryhards". In my opinion, that vehemence steers the conversation away from a refined, honest discourse about game elements and into something that amounts to polarizing bemoaning. We've all faced that foe who just frustrated the hell out of us at the time, but there is no moral victory in dismissing the other individual as something tawdry.

    Let's be thankful this game doesn't have a KDR.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Sloth9230 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:52 pm

    Emergence wrote:I understand what it is to be presented with a setup that is powerful and seemingly demanding of exceptional tactics to overcome. Everything has a counter yes, but not all counters are created equal. However, it's one thing to identify that distention and then another to cross over into vitriol and label the people who use those tactics with words like "housewives" and "tryhards". In my opinion, that vehemence steers the conversation away from a refined, honest discourse about game elements and into something that amounts to polarizing bemoaning. We've all faced that foe who just frustrated the hell out of us at the time, but there is no moral victory in dismissing the other individual as something tawdry.

    Let's be thankful this game doesn't have a KDR.

    I wish to speak like you one :Baal02: lol


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:57 pm

    Emergence wrote:I understand what it is to be presented with a setup that is powerful and seemingly demanding of exceptional tactics to overcome. Everything has a counter yes, but not all counters are created equal. However, it's one thing to identify that distention and then another to cross over into vitriol and label the people who use those tactics with words like "housewives" and "tryhards". In my opinion, that vehemence steers the conversation away from a refined, honest discourse about game elements and into something that amounts to polarizing bemoaning. We've all faced that foe who just frustrated the hell out of us at the time, but there is no moral victory in dismissing the other individual as something tawdry.

    Let's be thankful this game doesn't have a KDR.

    KDR?


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:01 pm

    Kill/death ratio


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:02 pm

    ^Oh. Thanks Forum.

    Ya know, I'd actually be kind of interested in seeing something like that for myself. Just out of sheer morbid curiosity, but I guess I can also see the inherent risks in having something like that.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:04 pm

    It encourages honest competition, but it also encourages douchebaggery and cheating


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:07 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:It encourages honest competition, but it also encourages douchebaggery and cheating

    Yeah, the first thing I thought of was the kind of reaction the arena leader boards seem to be getting.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:16 pm

    Glutebrah wrote:magic can be dodged easily at range with DWGR, but magic would be your only chance, but requires an error to be made by the spear user, or lag.

    this is exactly my point right here. magic just isn't that useful in PVP because it is so easily avoidable…unless

    the problem is that magic can kill most builds in one shot but to get that one shot, the magic user has to either get lucky or the latency has to be in their favour. deciding any type of bout in this manner is silly.

    a similar argument could be made about back stab fishers thankfully the hornet ring was nerfed so that it is less of an issue.

    there are exceptions as always.

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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:23 pm

    Emergence wrote:I understand what it is to be presented with a setup that is powerful and seemingly demanding of exceptional tactics to overcome. Everything has a counter yes, but not all counters are created equal. However, it's one thing to identify that distention and then another to cross over into vitriol and label the people who use those tactics with words like "housewives" and "tryhards". In my opinion, that vehemence steers the conversation away from a refined, honest discourse about game elements and into something that amounts to polarizing bemoaning. We've all faced that foe who just frustrated the hell out of us at the time, but there is no moral victory in dismissing the other individual as something tawdry.

    Let's be thankful this game doesn't have a KDR.

    there is no counter to one shot lag kills which is my issue with those who's tactics seem to rely on this as their only game plan.

    i will stop using "try hard" and housewife" but i have no idea what else to call these types of builds?

    by the gawds! no KDR in any Souls game!

    i liked the rating system from Demon's though, that was pretty cool. i would be happy with something similar.
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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:29 pm

    Dark Bead abuser? Fashion faux-pas?

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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:32 pm

    I can go through 1100+hp with a bs using a mace without the hornets ring or pw. If somebody wants to fish for insta-kill back stabs, there is nothing stopping them.


    There is no counter to lag. There are many counters to 1 hit kills. Everybody has lag issues, learn to adjust and accept that sometimes you made no mistake, lag and luck were against you. Its unfortunate, but sometimes you just have to dust yourself off and move on.

    As for the people who hunt for 1 hit kills, there are many ways to do that and there is nothing wrong with most of them (the exception being hacking), just as there is nothing wrong with tanking or chipping or roll poking or turtling.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:33 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Dark Bead abuser?

    do not ever google this
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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by PlasticandRage on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:34 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:I can go through 1100+hp with a bs using a mace without the hornets ring or pw. If somebody wants to fish for insta-kill back stabs, there is nothing stopping them.


    There is no counter to lag. There are many counters to 1 hit kills. Everybody has lag issues, learn to adjust and accept that sometimes you made no mistake, lag and luck were against you. Its unfortunate, but sometimes you just have to dust yourself off and move on.

    As for the people who hunt for 1 hit kills, there are many ways to do that and there is nothing wrong with most of them (the exception being hacking), just as there is nothing wrong with tanking or chipping or roll poking or turtling.

    This is pretty much verbatim how I feel about it.

    I think if you're ever PvPing, and you're losing to lag a lot, and finding yourself getting overly bent out of shape about it, maybe you should consider countering it by not playing for awhile. Winning becomes obsession so easily, and it really ceases to be enjoyable. If you're not having fun, than why are you still playing? Lag happens. It sucks, but if the positive experiences aren't still outweighing the negative ones, then why continue?


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Sloth9230 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:35 pm

    Allso keep in mind that people who rely on lag tend to to lose when their is no lag, which happens just as often if not more.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:56 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:I can go through 1100+hp with a bs using a mace without the hornets ring or pw. If somebody wants to fish for insta-kill back stabs, there is nothing stopping them.


    There is no counter to lag. There are many counters to 1 hit kills. Everybody has lag issues, learn to adjust and accept that sometimes you made no mistake, lag and luck were against you. Its unfortunate, but sometimes you just have to dust yourself off and move on.

    As for the people who hunt for 1 hit kills, there are many ways to do that and there is nothing wrong with most of them (the exception being hacking), just as there is nothing wrong with tanking or chipping or roll poking or turtling.

    for me, it has more to do with what seems to be how such things are designed, mechanics wise. including something that is difficult to land a hit with, save for lag, and making it do so much damage that it one shots most builds is flawed and should be re-thought for the next Souls. such things are to easily abused by those who shall from now on remain nameless.

    lag is inevitable, everyone is aware of this, including the designers i'm sure. so why not adjust the design so this one shot lag kill thing isn't so prevalent. because winning or losing based on a single laggy hit is no fun for anyone, well it's certainly not fun for me anyway. after all they did adjust the hornet ring for exactly this reason, didn't they?

    don't get me wrong, i can take my lumps and losses like a boss. but i have this character flaw that says i should try to play fair and not abuse what can be seen as an easily exploitable design flaw. especially in competitive play. but that's just me.

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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:58 pm

    Sloth9230 wrote:Allso keep in mind that people who rely on lag tend to to lose when their is no lag, which happens just as often if not more.

    indeed … and the love letters they send afterwards are amusing.
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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:05 pm

    The thing about the one hit builds, is that they're one trick ponies. They trade most of their versatility for that ability, and the 1 hit wonder nature of their build means lag affects the outcome of the fight the most, like sniper rifles or shotguns in shooters. Nothing can be done about it, short of removing the methods entirely.

    They dominate their area. If you want to win, you must use your versatility to play to their weakness. They tend to die quickly when you do.


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