So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

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    So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by aceluby on Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:15 pm

    Yes, another DM thread, but I didn't feel it was appropriate in the other threads.

    So, I don't think lag really helps out DM all that much, pursuers maybe if the user is try to roll into it, but other than that, lag doesn't help all that much.

    I think the reason people hate it so much is that it counters aggression when being an agressive melee was easily the most viable PvP build. If your opponent is super aggressive it's difficult for them to dodge pursuers as well as it makes dark bead more powerful as more orbs can hit. I think this is the core issue people are having since before this being aggressive was heavily rewarded vs being cautious in PvP. This is a fairly fundamental change in how PvP works and I think because of this change, many people are angry that their tactics that work against every other build don't work the same against the new magic.

    Just a thought I had.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by skarekrow13 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:19 pm

    That's an interesting take. I haven't considered that Dark Magic was even a major change actually. I fight pretty conservatively and hadn't seen this as anything different than other spell spammer types.

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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Jester's Tears on Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:32 pm

    STILL HATE IT.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:44 pm

    skarekrow13 wrote:I haven't considered that Dark Magic was even a major change actually. I fight pretty conservatively and hadn't seen this as anything different than other spell spammer types.

    i agree with this,

    dark magic gets all the hate that back stab fishing housewives used to get because the housewives have traded their hornet rings and ultra great weapons for tin crystal catalysts, elf ears and dark magic. otherwise, it's still the same argument as it was before.
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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by aceluby on Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:10 pm

    skarekrow13 wrote:That's an interesting take. I haven't considered that Dark Magic was even a major change actually. I fight pretty conservatively and hadn't seen this as anything different than other spell spammer types.

    Right, which fits w/ my theory. If you play somewhat conservatively the magic is no different than any other, but if you're looking for BS openings, go for bleed, or play a super aggressive style (which admittedly, wins often), then the new magic is quite different than other magic types because it punishes that playstyle. A CSS to a BS fisher will miss 90%+ of the time, but a Dark Bead will at least hit him to give you space and could possibly kill him.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by GkMrBane on Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:13 pm

    aceluby wrote:Yes, another DM thread, but I didn't feel it was appropriate in the other threads.

    So, I don't think lag really helps out DM all that much, pursuers maybe if the user is try to roll into it, but other than that, lag doesn't help all that much.

    I think the reason people hate it so much is that it counters aggression when being an agressive melee was easily the most viable PvP build. If your opponent is super aggressive it's difficult for them to dodge pursuers as well as it makes dark bead more powerful as more orbs can hit. I think this is the core issue people are having since before this being aggressive was heavily rewarded vs being cautious in PvP. This is a fairly fundamental change in how PvP works and I think because of this change, many people are angry that their tactics that work against every other build don't work the same against the new magic.

    Just a thought I had.

    I agree with you sir.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by aceluby on Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:25 pm

    Nybbles wrote:
    skarekrow13 wrote:I haven't considered that Dark Magic was even a major change actually. I fight pretty conservatively and hadn't seen this as anything different than other spell spammer types.

    i agree with this,

    dark magic gets all the hate that back stab fishing housewives used to get because the housewives have traded their hornet rings and ultra great weapons for tin crystal catalysts, elf ears and dark magic. otherwise, it's still the same argument as it was before.

    How do you know people 'traded' x for y? Simply because Int is now viable to PvP with and now you see more of them doesn't mean it's the same players who BS fish.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:10 pm

    aceluby wrote:
    Nybbles wrote:
    skarekrow13 wrote:I haven't considered that Dark Magic was even a major change actually. I fight pretty conservatively and hadn't seen this as anything different than other spell spammer types.

    i agree with this,

    dark magic gets all the hate that back stab fishing housewives used to get because the housewives have traded their hornet rings and ultra great weapons for tin crystal catalysts, elf ears and dark magic. otherwise, it's still the same argument as it was before.

    How do you know people 'traded' x for y? Simply because Int is now viable to PvP with and now you see more of them doesn't mean it's the same players who BS fish.

    it's a gut feeling more than a fact, true. but i haven't seen many housewives fishing for backstabs since the patch. i have seen a metric ton of cookie cutter try hard builds spamming dark magic though. so i figured it was a pretty sound conclusion.

    either way, the problem is the same, one shot power plus lag equals an easy to exploit tactic which cannot be defended against. no matter the method, it is a try hard tactic that not many like to play against. not even the try hards that do it, no one sends more hate mail than those types of players lol.
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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Sloth9230 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:26 pm

    Nybbles: you need only venture into the forest to find the "housewives fishing for backstabs" you seek


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by aceluby on Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:59 pm

    Sloth9230 wrote:Nybbles: you need only venture into the forest to find the "housewives fishing for backstabs" you seek

    Yep, which is why I go there w/ my pure caster build and Dark Bead absolutely punishes them.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by aceluby on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:02 pm

    Nybbles wrote:
    aceluby wrote:
    Nybbles wrote:
    skarekrow13 wrote:I haven't considered that Dark Magic was even a major change actually. I fight pretty conservatively and hadn't seen this as anything different than other spell spammer types.

    i agree with this,

    dark magic gets all the hate that back stab fishing housewives used to get because the housewives have traded their hornet rings and ultra great weapons for tin crystal catalysts, elf ears and dark magic. otherwise, it's still the same argument as it was before.

    How do you know people 'traded' x for y? Simply because Int is now viable to PvP with and now you see more of them doesn't mean it's the same players who BS fish.

    it's a gut feeling more than a fact, true. but i haven't seen many housewives fishing for backstabs since the patch. i have seen a metric ton of cookie cutter try hard builds spamming dark magic though. so i figured it was a pretty sound conclusion.

    either way, the problem is the same, one shot power plus lag equals an easy to exploit tactic which cannot be defended against. no matter the method, it is a try hard tactic that not many like to play against. not even the try hards that do it, no one sends more hate mail than those types of players lol.

    Again, lag has very little to do w/ the success of dark bead or pursuers. If you stay far enough away and don't go all aggro you would never get OHKO by either of these spells.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Sloth9230 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:06 pm

    aceluby wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Nybbles: you need only venture into the forest to find the "housewives fishing for backstabs" you seek

    Yep, which is why I go there w/ my pure caster build and Dark Bead absolutely punishes them.

    I like 1 shoting them when I'm bored, or if I've lost against the same pair over and over(just to let them know I was going easy on them before, and that I could have beat them lang ago if I felt like it.



    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:08 pm

    Out of all my builds one is mage (I have another INT build but that one is a DEX/INT build built around the Velka's Rapier, it also only has 2 ATT slots none of which are devoted to Dark Magic) in fact it was the second I ever made and she was made way before the DLC was even being hinted at, she is now SL 200 and has 34 Attunement, naturally, some of those slots have become devoted to Dark Magic.

    My question is: how is this a try-hard build if it was made long before the DLC and Dark Magic? Unless I'm psychic it makes no sense to me. My other question is should I have not added Dark Magic to this build that was already tailor-made for them?

    So this notion that as soon as the DLC hit the consoles everyone went out of their way to create an INT build is false. I did no such thing, I already had an INT build and I incorporated the new magics in the DLC. Is that so wrong?


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:25 pm

    Sloth9230 wrote:Nybbles: you need only venture into the forest to find the "housewives fishing for backstabs" you seek

    i am a forest hunter at the moment, every invasion is pretty much a carbon copy of every other invasion. just a bunch of scrubs spamming dark bead and pursuers or some other OHKO spell combo. i've only had maybe one or two gankers that were bs fishers. i'm invading with a SL124 Artorias build, the abyss version. with fast roll it's pretty easy to run around all these jokers even without a shield, except when there's any amount of lag, there's nothing i can do, i get hit once and i die. Look Skyward

    i did some hosting in the forest before joining the hunters, i was by myself with the above build and felt bad for trashing so many hunters. but at least they used a variety of tactics and kept it entertaining, so kudos to all you hunters out there for not being so try hard.
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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by GkMrBane on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:26 pm

    Im going to be honest before the DLC I didnt have any INT toons cause it didnt seem viable. Now fast forward to the DLC once I discovered Dark magic I found that INT felt more viable so I made 3 new INT toons. happy


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:35 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Out of all my builds one is mage (I have another INT build but that one is a DEX/INT build built around the Velka's Rapier, it also only has 2 ATT slots none of which are devoted to Dark Magic) in fact it was the second I ever made and she was made way before the DLC was even being hinted at, she is now SL 200 and has 34 Attunement, naturally, some of those slots have become devoted to Dark Magic.

    My question is: how is this a try-hard build if it was made long before the DLC and Dark Magic? Unless I'm psychic it makes no sense to me. My other question is should I have not added Dark Magic to this build that was already tailor-made for them?

    So this notion that as soon as the DLC hit the consoles everyone went out of their way to create an INT build is false. I did no such thing, I already had an INT build and I incorporated the new magics in the DLC. Is that so wrong?
    No. Tryhard is an ignorant term for people who use effective tactics.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:37 pm

    As always, Pirate, you are the voice of reason in the harsh wilderness. :pharis:

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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by befowler on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:41 pm

    I am a pretty cautious and defensive player, and still hate dark magic. I've also seen pursuers chase a completely different player, hit them, explode, and then kill me while leaving that other player unharmed even though on my screen they were nowhere near me. That's either horrible lag or some deeper implementation issue.

    The only silver lining is that DM is so OP that its users are getting lazy. I've had several wins recently where I used hidden body and they completely panicked when they realized their pursuers were not going to fire. The only thing missing was the Benny Hill chase music.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Sloth9230 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:42 pm

    Nybbles wrote:
    Sloth9230 wrote:Nybbles: you need only venture into the forest to find the "housewives fishing for backstabs" you seek

    i am a forest hunter at the moment, every invasion is pretty much a carbon copy of every other invasion. just a bunch of scrubs spamming dark bead and pursuers or some other OHKO spell combo. i've only had maybe one or two gankers that were bs fishers. i'm invading with a SL124 Artorias build, the abyss version. with fast roll it's pretty easy to run around all these jokers even without a shield, except when there's any amount of lag, there's nothing i can do, i get hit once and i die. Look Skyward

    i did some hosting in the forest before joining the hunters, i was by myself with the above build and felt bad for trashing so many hunters. but at least they used a variety of tactics and kept it entertaining, so kudos to all you hunters out there for not being so try hard.

    I almost never run into magic users, that or they're too scared to use it since they have no guarantee of getting back to the bonfire to restock without getting invaded and dying. Though the few I do run into them usually results in a double knockout lol

    Befowler: Indeed, whenever I go in spamming DM I find that I get hit a lot more by attacks that I usually would have dodged, like CSS, HCS and DB -_-


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:46 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:46 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Out of all my builds one is mage (I have another INT build but that one is a DEX/INT build built around the Velka's Rapier, it also only has 2 ATT slots none of which are devoted to Dark Magic) in fact it was the second I ever made and she was made way before the DLC was even being hinted at, she is now SL 200 and has 34 Attunement, naturally, some of those slots have become devoted to Dark Magic.

    My question is: how is this a try-hard build if it was made long before the DLC and Dark Magic? Unless I'm psychic it makes no sense to me. My other question is should I have not added Dark Magic to this build that was already tailor-made for them?

    So this notion that as soon as the DLC hit the consoles everyone went out of their way to create an INT build is false. I did no such thing, I already had an INT build and I incorporated the new magics in the DLC. Is that so wrong?

    in my opinion, a try hard build is a toon that stacks as big a damage boost as is possible, looking to hit that one shot kill butter zone (1200-1600 damage) and then spam the crap out of it hoping to land a lucky shot. it's the i don't care how i win as long as i win attitude. doesn't really matter if it was pre or post patch, dark bead is just super easy for these clowns to use in this way thanks to latency and its immense amount of damage.

    it's just not that fun when a bout is determined in a single blow and by whoever has the least amount of latency.

    folks who like to play casters are unfortunately lumped in with these try hard clowns. similar to how all dragons were accused of cheating thanks to the head glitch and the bow backstab. i've been accused of cheating just for using the full dragon form even though the dude (or dudette) disconnected before we even had a chance to fight each other. i'm not trying to do this, but nine times out of ten, that's how it turns out. i would really love to fight a caster that mixed it up a little. maybe i should just leave the forest.
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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Sloth9230 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:50 pm

    Nybbles wrote:
    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Out of all my builds one is mage (I have another INT build but that one is a DEX/INT build built around the Velka's Rapier, it also only has 2 ATT slots none of which are devoted to Dark Magic) in fact it was the second I ever made and she was made way before the DLC was even being hinted at, she is now SL 200 and has 34 Attunement, naturally, some of those slots have become devoted to Dark Magic.

    My question is: how is this a try-hard build if it was made long before the DLC and Dark Magic? Unless I'm psychic it makes no sense to me. My other question is should I have not added Dark Magic to this build that was already tailor-made for them?

    So this notion that as soon as the DLC hit the consoles everyone went out of their way to create an INT build is false. I did no such thing, I already had an INT build and I incorporated the new magics in the DLC. Is that so wrong?

    in my opinion, a try hard build is a toon that stacks as big a damage boost as is possible, looking to hit that one shot kill butter zone (1200-1600 damage) and then spam the crap out of it hoping to land a lucky shot. it's the i don't care how i win as long as i win attitude. doesn't really matter if it was pre or post patch, dark bead is just super easy for these clowns to use in this way thanks to latency and its immense amount of damage.

    it's just not that fun when a bout is determined in a single blow and by whoever has the least amount of latency.

    folks who like to play casters are unfortunately lumped in with these try hard clowns. similar to how all dragons were accused of cheating thanks to the head glitch and the bow backstab. i've been accused of cheating just for using the full dragon form even though the dude (or dudette) disconnected before we even had a chance to fight each other. i'm not trying to do this, but nine times out of ten, that's how it turns out. i would really love to fight a caster that mixed it up a little. maybe i should just leave the forest.

    In the forest(I'm a FH too) I usually spam w/e gets the kill. In the Kiln I usually still use them but only to breack gaurds so i can go back to swinging away with my bss lol.

    And when you run into just take the loss and move on, theirs not much you could have done about it and luckily us forest hunters lose nothing lol


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:53 pm

    I try. Thats what your friendly neighborhood pirate is here for. Bow

    Everybody has a different definition of a try hard. On a broad scale, anyone who cares wether or not they win could be called a try hard, because they try hard to win. Its a ridiculous derogatory term, that failes in its purpose by being nonspecific to a fualt.

    Never mind that trying hard is not a bad thing. If nobody ever tried hard, the species wouldn't excist.


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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:56 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:No. Tryhard is an ignorant term for people who use effective tactics.

    no doubt, i have nothing against using effective tactics, the bandit knife is damn effective in the right hands. there is effective and then there's it's so easy to exploit that it makes everything laughably easy. i'm also pretty sure that lag is one of those things that wasn't factored into what makes something "effective".
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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Glutebrah on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:58 pm

    the only issue i have with it is what i call the "vanishing Pursuers bug"

    not sure if its just lag, but it seems to bad to be lag.

    what happens is enemy casts pursuers, they chase me, i roll dodge/evade the pursuers vanish, and i pick up my offensive on the caster, but about 5-10 seconds later i get super staggered with a lot of damage and see al the dark magic explosions hitting me.

    the amount of times this has happened to me when lag other wise seems fine is growing.

    it happened just the other day when i was doing 2v2 in the arena with other forum members, i successfully dodged the pursuers, back stabbed the caster the caster died about 5 seconds later as i was running to help my team mate 2v1 the other guy, i get OHKOd by them.


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    SL 55 (Ele) http://mmdks.com/2b2g (Avelyn + WP)
    SL100 (Dex) http://mmdks.com/25vk (Chaos Blade)
    SL100 (Str) http://mmdks.com/2b2h (MSGS)
    SL100 (Pyro) http://mmdks.com/2b2l (FIRE)
    SL120 (Str) http://mmdks.com/2n6r (DGA)
    SL120 (Dex) http://mmdks.com/2n6v (murk) i did it, i sold out
    SL150 (Int) http://mmdks.com/25vm (Velkas + TCC)
    SL149 (Cos) http://mmdks.com/2b2q (Black Knight)
    SL200 (Cos) http://mmdks.com/2b2j (Ornstein)
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    Glutebrah
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    Join date : 2012-01-18

    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

    Post by Glutebrah on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:01 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:No. Tryhard is an ignorant term for people who use effective tactics.

    the only time i would label some one a "tryhard" is when they are on the verge of death and need to heal 3-5x, and still end up losing.

    instead of just accepting defeat in a 1v1 duel that you bowed to in a designated "dueling area" you need to run off and give your self 5 chances to win.


    _________________
    Chaos Blade is Best Blade

    **NEW**PSN: Glute_brah **NEW**
    SL 55 (Ele) http://mmdks.com/2b2g (Avelyn + WP)
    SL100 (Dex) http://mmdks.com/25vk (Chaos Blade)
    SL100 (Str) http://mmdks.com/2b2h (MSGS)
    SL100 (Pyro) http://mmdks.com/2b2l (FIRE)
    SL120 (Str) http://mmdks.com/2n6r (DGA)
    SL120 (Dex) http://mmdks.com/2n6v (murk) i did it, i sold out
    SL150 (Int) http://mmdks.com/25vm (Velkas + TCC)
    SL149 (Cos) http://mmdks.com/2b2q (Black Knight)
    SL200 (Cos) http://mmdks.com/2b2j (Ornstein)

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    Re: So I think I know the issue w/ Dark Magic

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