So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Share
    avatar
    Forum Pirate
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 6625
    Reputation : 232
    Join date : 2012-01-30
    Age : 26
    Location : International waters

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:51 pm

    My tweak is to make poise harder to get, with greater weight or str requirements, as well as to make any and all armors that have poise reduced movement speed, by a greater amount the more poise is granted.


    _________________
    Your rules are yours
    My honor is mine.
    Perspective is everything.
    We are Exiles, and our home is Painted with the blood of trespassers.

    Nybbles
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 785
    Reputation : 45
    Join date : 2012-07-31

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:54 pm

    Seignar wrote:The online aspect of this game has bigger problems than poise. 1-shot magic, hornet ring backstabs, these things make poise seem like a joke.

    this
    avatar
    Reaperfan
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3008
    Reputation : 135
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Age : 26
    Location : Canterlot

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Reaperfan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:00 pm

    Gazman0169 wrote:Or maybe, just maybe, it's the seemingly endless stream of threads on messageboards such as this one that constantly moan and btch about something perfectly legit in the game, until it reaches the point where the Games Developer is left with no other option but to nerf/buff the crapola out of it in order to silence the discontent, when all that was really needed was a little PPD on our part (patience, practice, and determination).

    I can say without a shadow of a doubt that any developer that actually cares about their game never caves in to the pissing and moaning of a few players. Any developer of an online game that's worried about balance issues who is worth their salt will be using what is known as metrics. If you don't know what those are, here's a nice video discussing the subject, but what it basically boils down to is that the developers are able to keep track of what players are using, how their using it, and the results thereof. If something is legitimately broken, it's not going to come to FROM's attention via some player or small community of players complaining about it, it's going to come from FROM's raw, unbiased data.

    The problem is that FROM is not really that great at competitive PvP balancing. When their metrics show that...say...the Crystal Ring Shield is being used to allow players to 3-shot bosses, or that 80% of players who invade while wearing a Fog Ring result in a victory for the invader, they know something needs to be done. However, they aren't a company known for creating competitive PvP environments since their games are mostly crafted for a PvE experience. So when it comes time to change something, they end up trying to avoid undershooting the solution (resulting in nothing being done) and going overboard instead.

    TL;DR: Pissing and moaning about problems on a forum never directly got anything nerfed, and everything that got nerfed to uselessness is a result of FROM being bad at competitive balance despite their genius with world balance.


    _________________

    "To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." ~C.S. Lewis
    avatar
    steveswede
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 652
    Reputation : 31
    Join date : 2012-10-30
    Age : 37

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by steveswede on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:05 pm

    The Letter X wrote:@Steveswede It is stupid, but not quite as much as someone running around with only a dagger stunlocking the guy with the UGS.

    I mentioned this before that the only way to deal with weapons that stun lock is to make the distance of the person getting stun locked move out of range more with each hit. It means that you can get say a 3 hit combo in if you're close up to a player but only 1 hit if you are only just in range. This is a much better system than UGS hyper armour, slowing down greatswords or nerfing poise.

    Forum Pirate wrote:My tweak is to make poise harder to get, with
    greater weight or str requirements, as well as to make any and all
    armors that have poise reduced movement speed, by a greater amount the
    more poise is granted.

    Amour is related to stamina so there is no need to have a strength requirement and the weight difference between poise armour and no poise armour is quite large. You will make poise harder to get if Havel's ring is removed, quick and effective.

    callipygias
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1776
    Reputation : 93
    Join date : 2012-02-18
    Age : 48
    Location : Oregon, US

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by callipygias on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:05 pm

    The closest anything has come to ruining the game for me is op phantoms in the early game. Then when they gift noobs those maxed out weaps it's even worse. That's the only thing I can think of that has probably ruined Dark Souls for some people (oher than dying a lot).


    _________________
    XBL: callipygias33
    PSN: callipygias33


    "It's just common sense to NOT go into battle naked." ~ Yarxov

    "Billy - what type of gladiator do you plan on being?" ~ TehInfamousAmos

    "Troll the big drunk guy at the bar. Get punched in the face. Repeat until desire to troll is gone." ~ Forum Pirate
    avatar
    The Letter X
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2613
    Reputation : 122
    Join date : 2012-09-15
    Location : Southern US

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by The Letter X on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:09 pm

    steveswede wrote:
    The Letter X wrote:@Steveswede It is stupid, but not quite as much as someone running around with only a dagger stunlocking the guy with the UGS.

    I mentioned this before that the only way to deal with weapons that stun lock is to make the distance of the person getting stun locked move out of range more with each hit. It means that you can get say a 3 hit combo in if you're close up to a player but only 1 hit if you are only just in range. This is a much better system than UGS hyper armour, slowing down greatswords or nerfing poise.

    I was only suggesting hyper armor in the case of poise being removed. I'm personally against hyper armor, the GS nerf, and nerfing/removing poise. That's why I don't think poise should be removed.


    _________________
    avatar
    Forum Pirate
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 6625
    Reputation : 232
    Join date : 2012-01-30
    Age : 26
    Location : International waters

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:13 pm

    Wolf ring as well or nothing is accomplished, but it is still extremely easy to have full giants and mid roll, a bit off for one of the heaviest armors in game, no?


    _________________
    Your rules are yours
    My honor is mine.
    Perspective is everything.
    We are Exiles, and our home is Painted with the blood of trespassers.
    avatar
    Reaperfan
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3008
    Reputation : 135
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Age : 26
    Location : Canterlot

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Reaperfan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:19 pm

    steveswede wrote:I mentioned this before that the only way to deal with weapons that stun lock is to make the distance of the person getting stun locked move out of range more with each hit. It means that you can get say a 3 hit combo in if you're close up to a player but only 1 hit if you are only just in range. This is a much better system than UGS hyper armour, slowing down greatswords or nerfing poise.

    Or you could just take the very basic effect of recovery frames and how they work with combos in most fighting games. Basically, each consecutive stun-locked hit would stun you for less and less time, allowing you to recover even in the middle of their swing after a hit or two. This keeps fast weapons viable since if you manage to stunlock someone with a dagger, you should be able to get more combo'd hits off than with a big weapon. It also means you'll still only be able to be hit once or twice in a row with big, heavy damage weapons. In your adjustment, shorter and faster weapons like Curved Swords and Daggers would be almost useless since they could never get off more than one or two hits before the opponent was out of range, and those weapons rely on strings of attacks for maximum effectiveness (when not being used for BS or parrying winking).


    _________________

    "To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." ~C.S. Lewis
    avatar
    steveswede
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 652
    Reputation : 31
    Join date : 2012-10-30
    Age : 37

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by steveswede on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:20 pm

    The Letter X wrote:
    steveswede wrote:
    The Letter X wrote:@Steveswede It is stupid, but not quite as much as someone running around with only a dagger stunlocking the guy with the UGS.

    I mentioned this before that the only way to deal with weapons that stun lock is to make the distance of the person getting stun locked move out of range more with each hit. It means that you can get say a 3 hit combo in if you're close up to a player but only 1 hit if you are only just in range. This is a much better system than UGS hyper armour, slowing down greatswords or nerfing poise.

    I was only suggesting hyper armor in the case of poise being removed. I'm personally against hyper armor, the GS nerf, and nerfing/removing poise. That's why I don't think poise should be removed.

    Exactly. I know where you were coming from and you were just countering a stupid nerf idea with another one. Hope I wasn't sounding hostile when replying to you as it wasn't my intention. I seem to have this habit of talking blunt sometimes and people get the wrong context.
    avatar
    The Letter X
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2613
    Reputation : 122
    Join date : 2012-09-15
    Location : Southern US

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by The Letter X on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:28 pm

    steveswede wrote:
    The Letter X wrote:
    steveswede wrote:
    The Letter X wrote:@Steveswede It is stupid, but not quite as much as someone running around with only a dagger stunlocking the guy with the UGS.

    I mentioned this before that the only way to deal with weapons that stun lock is to make the distance of the person getting stun locked move out of range more with each hit. It means that you can get say a 3 hit combo in if you're close up to a player but only 1 hit if you are only just in range. This is a much better system than UGS hyper armour, slowing down greatswords or nerfing poise.

    I was only suggesting hyper armor in the case of poise being removed. I'm personally against hyper armor, the GS nerf, and nerfing/removing poise. That's why I don't think poise should be removed.

    Exactly. I know where you were coming from and you were just countering a stupid nerf idea with another one. Hope I wasn't sounding hostile when replying to you as it wasn't my intention. I seem to have this habit of talking blunt sometimes and people get the wrong context.

    I was doing the same thing. My apologies as well.


    _________________
    avatar
    steveswede
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 652
    Reputation : 31
    Join date : 2012-10-30
    Age : 37

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by steveswede on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:30 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:Or you could just take the very basic effect of recovery frames and how they work with combos in most fighting games. Basically, each consecutive stun-locked hit would stun you for less and less time, allowing you to recover even in the middle of their swing after a hit or two. This keeps fast weapons viable since if you manage to stunlock someone with a dagger, you should be able to get more combo'd hits off than with a big weapon. It also means you'll still only be able to be hit once or twice in a row with big, heavy damage weapons. In your adjustment, shorter and faster weapons like Curved Swords and Daggers would be almost useless since they could never get off more than one or two hits before the opponent was out of range, and those weapons rely on strings of attacks for maximum effectiveness (when not being used for BS or parrying winking).

    That's a good way to deal with stun locking but I do prefer my idea for balance. With yours it will guarantee combo hits no matter your range but with mine, the person who is attacking would have to take in consideration it's consequences if they want to take another swing. What I mean is that say you're out of range after your opponent has hit you once with his zweihander., you could then use your invincibility frames to roll forward to get some quick hits in or even parry due to his UGS being slow.
    avatar
    Forum Pirate
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 6625
    Reputation : 232
    Join date : 2012-01-30
    Age : 26
    Location : International waters

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:37 pm

    There is always push back, reapers point is valid, as well as tried and true, yours undercutts faster weapons most effective trait.


    _________________
    Your rules are yours
    My honor is mine.
    Perspective is everything.
    We are Exiles, and our home is Painted with the blood of trespassers.
    avatar
    Reaperfan
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3008
    Reputation : 135
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Age : 26
    Location : Canterlot

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Reaperfan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:40 pm

    steveswede wrote:That's a good way to deal with stun locking but I do prefer my idea for balance. With yours it will guarantee combo hits no matter your range but with mine, the person who is attacking would have to take in consideration it's consequences if they want to take another swing. What I mean is that say you're out of range after your opponent has hit you once with his zweihander., you could then use your invincibility frames to roll forward to get some quick hits in or even parry due to his UGS being slow.

    I suppose parrying could be an issue, but I believe there's one bit you're mistaken on in what I meant. Improved recovery frames are not invincibility frames. You wouldn't just stand there while their weapon swung through you, you would simply be able to dodge away from the hit sooner. And I'm literally talking by just a few frames per consecutive hit. There would be no time to roll forward and do some attacks, as the increase in recovery would only account for 1/30th to 1/20th of a second, just enough time to activate a roll and give yourself invincibility frames to get out of the combo. If your opponent kept swinging away, then basically any other action you took besides rolling would be interrupted by their next hit and you'd be stunlocked all over again.


    _________________

    "To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." ~C.S. Lewis
    avatar
    steveswede
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 652
    Reputation : 31
    Join date : 2012-10-30
    Age : 37

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by steveswede on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:42 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:There is always push back, reapers point is valid, as well as tried and true, yours undercutts faster weapons most effective trait.

    How? Show me where this is tried and true.

    The concept is very simple. The closer you are the more stun lock hits you get in. The amount of stun lock hits can be different to each weapon, they don't have to be the same across the board.
    avatar
    WhatDoesThePendantDo?
    Duke's Archivist
    Duke's Archivist

    Posts : 11501
    Reputation : 327
    Join date : 2012-04-18
    Age : 28
    Location : WPB, Florida

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:42 pm

    Ooh, Reaper, you so smart. Sun

    avatar
    steveswede
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 652
    Reputation : 31
    Join date : 2012-10-30
    Age : 37

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by steveswede on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:47 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:
    steveswede wrote:That's a good way to deal with stun locking but I do prefer my idea for balance. With yours it will guarantee combo hits no matter your range but with mine, the person who is attacking would have to take in consideration it's consequences if they want to take another swing. What I mean is that say you're out of range after your opponent has hit you once with his zweihander., you could then use your invincibility frames to roll forward to get some quick hits in or even parry due to his UGS being slow.

    I suppose parrying could be an issue, but I believe there's one bit you're mistaken on in what I meant. Improved recovery frames are not invincibility frames. You wouldn't just stand there while their weapon swung through you, you would simply be able to dodge away from the hit sooner. And I'm literally talking by just a few frames per consecutive hit. There would be no time to roll forward and do some attacks, as the increase in recovery would only account for 1/30th to 1/20th of a second, just enough time to activate a roll and give yourself invincibility frames to get out of the combo. If your opponent kept swinging away, then basically any other action you took besides rolling would be interrupted by their next hit and you'd be stunlocked all over again.

    But that means that just in range attacks can't be punished if the person doing it is being careless. Surely having options other than escape adds more depth to the combat system?
    avatar
    Reaperfan
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3008
    Reputation : 135
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Age : 26
    Location : Canterlot

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Reaperfan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:48 pm

    steveswede wrote:Show me where this is tried and true.

    Every 2d Fighting game with a deliberately-implemented combo system ever made.

    A specific one off the top of my head would be Blazblue: Calamity Trigger or its follow-up, Blazblue: Continuum Shift.


    _________________

    "To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." ~C.S. Lewis
    avatar
    steveswede
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 652
    Reputation : 31
    Join date : 2012-10-30
    Age : 37

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by steveswede on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:56 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:
    steveswede wrote:Show me where this is tried and true.

    Every 2d Fighting game with a deliberately-implemented combo system ever made.

    A specific one off the top of my head would be Blazblue: Calamity Trigger or its follow-up, Blazblue: Continuum Shift.

    Hmmm I've been out of 2D fighting games for a while so forgive me when I only see knockdown animations and reduced damage when doing long combos are used.
    avatar
    Forum Pirate
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 6625
    Reputation : 232
    Join date : 2012-01-30
    Age : 26
    Location : International waters

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:57 pm

    Over complicating things is bad for the system. Careless attackers don't attack "just in range," because they don't know how to control the spacing. There also wouldn't be anything stopping you from immediately counter attacking once you broke stun, his suggestion is simply a way to allow players to break stun.


    _________________
    Your rules are yours
    My honor is mine.
    Perspective is everything.
    We are Exiles, and our home is Painted with the blood of trespassers.
    avatar
    Reaperfan
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3008
    Reputation : 135
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Age : 26
    Location : Canterlot

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Reaperfan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:00 pm

    steveswede wrote:
    Reaperfan wrote:I suppose parrying could be an issue, but I believe there's one bit you're mistaken on in what I meant. Improved recovery frames are not invincibility frames. You wouldn't just stand there while their weapon swung through you, you would simply be able to dodge away from the hit sooner. And I'm literally talking by just a few frames per consecutive hit. There would be no time to roll forward and do some attacks, as the increase in recovery would only account for 1/30th to 1/20th of a second, just enough time to activate a roll and give yourself invincibility frames to get out of the combo. If your opponent kept swinging away, then basically any other action you took besides rolling would be interrupted by their next hit and you'd be stunlocked all over again.

    But that means that just in range attacks can't be punished if the person doing it is being careless. Surely having options other than escape adds more depth to the combat system?

    This is where we get the whole idea I was talking about with "parrying could be an issue." Depending on the recovery reduction, it may make parrying too strong of an option as it almost guarantees you'll land a successful parry if you do it immediately out of a recovered stunlock because the small recovery window will put you back in control right before another attack is about to hit. The point being that parrying is an option that you could use instead of escaping.

    You also treat rolling like it's only meant for escape. My adjustment would simply allow you to roll to avoid the next hit in a stunlock. Where that roll goes is up to the player, be it away from the opponent, into them for an attempted BS punish, to the side to get better positioning in the environment, etc. You dodge right at the start of their next attack, so you have the entirety of it's animation to set up a punish.


    _________________

    "To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." ~C.S. Lewis
    avatar
    reim0027
    Moderator
    Moderator

    Posts : 6715
    Reputation : 381
    Join date : 2012-01-28

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:55 pm

    Nothing is wrecking this game. It is still going strong. I wouldn't expect a ruined game to last this long. It even has a place for gankers! And, a place where they are welcomed and hunted. Love it.


    _________________


    PSN usernames: reim0027_2,   reim0027_3,  and reim0027_5.  Skype ID: reim0027  
    Tour of Lordran Soul Levels  //  Official Wiki Fight Club // Forest Invasion Soul Levels // Low Level Invasion Rules
    avatar
    Odinbear
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 986
    Reputation : 28
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Sitting here in limbo, but I know it won't be long. Sitting here in limbo, like a bird without a song. Well they're putting up resistance, but I know that my faith will lead me on. Sitting here in limbo, waiting for the dice to roll.

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Odinbear on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:44 am

    Nothing.

    Nothing is ruining Dark Souls In fact it just keeps getting better. The DLC is evidence of this, the bosses are just brutal, the dark magic equally so. As they incorporate more AI into the enemies, it can only get better.
    I trust these FROM guys to move forward with more surprises and challanges and nothing they build will ruin it for me.


    _________________
    Shrug What up homey? (then he Back Stabbed me) lol!

    In a world with so few RULES, its always rough when someone plays in a way you think is unfair. Get over it.
    avatar
    Odinbear
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 986
    Reputation : 28
    Join date : 2012-04-25
    Location : Sitting here in limbo, but I know it won't be long. Sitting here in limbo, like a bird without a song. Well they're putting up resistance, but I know that my faith will lead me on. Sitting here in limbo, waiting for the dice to roll.

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Odinbear on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:46 am

    reim0027 wrote:Nothing is wrecking this game. It is still going strong. I wouldn't expect a ruined game to last this long. It even has a place for gankers! And, a place where they are welcomed and hunted. Love it.

    Funny, I wrote mine, then saw yours. Good to see DS isn't ruined in your eyes either. Lol


    _________________
    Shrug What up homey? (then he Back Stabbed me) lol!

    In a world with so few RULES, its always rough when someone plays in a way you think is unfair. Get over it.
    avatar
    Tomhet
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 176
    Reputation : 8
    Join date : 2012-10-09

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Tomhet on Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:04 am

    For me the thing that is ruining Dark Souls is all the annoying moaning :roll:
    avatar
    defacto
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 152
    Reputation : 6
    Join date : 2012-08-01

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by defacto on Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:51 am

    It's very narcissistic to think that the dev team is reading this forum and wringing their hands thinking of ways to please us.

    The number of game changes that originated from this forum? Zero. We are in a vacuum here. Don't make me explain why a Japanese dev team isn't reading tis forum lol and no they don't employ translators just to get our ever important ideas to them.

    So sit back, relax and complain about any part of the game you want. It literally has no impact.

    Sponsored content

    Re: So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:50 pm