Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

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    Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by bosslugger on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:01 pm

    So everyone is freaking out and speculating wildly about what Tomohiro Shibuya means by making the game more accessible....

    What are people's thoughts about bringing back a tutorial level like in Demon's Souls? It can be entirely optional, but would train players as to new or unfamiliar game mechanics to help get them up to speed before turning them loose in the world.

    Do you support a tutorial level, or no? If so, what would you like to see in it? If not, what else would you rather see?

    Note: this topic has nothing to do with game difficulty, so let's try to avoid that discussion here.
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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by BartholomewWenceslas on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:48 pm

    I would be perfectly fine with a tutorial level in DkSII. A lot of the turn off for most people with DeS and DkS was the steep learning curve, and while it was rewarding, a lot of people would be able to enjoy the game more if they actually knew what they were doing.

    As far as what the level could be, maybe just a sort of training room, kind of like the training in Super Smash Bros. where you can spawn any amount of enemies with certain traits (stationary, aggressive, passive, etc.) and then you could pull up tips or have the tutorial focus on a certain aspect of the game so if there's something specific you don't understand, it could help you out. It wouldn't make you a master at the game, but it would at least hopefully prevent newcomers to the series from getting too frustrated with the learning curve and just giving up on the game all together, proceeding to give it bad reviews to everyone they know, thus turning even more people off from the game :|


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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by bosslugger on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:27 pm

    BartholomewWenceslas wrote:I would be perfectly fine with a tutorial level in DkSII. A lot of the turn off for most people with DeS and DkS was the steep learning curve, and while it was rewarding, a lot of people would be able to enjoy the game more if they actually knew what they were doing.

    As far as what the level could be, maybe just a sort of training room, kind of like the training in Super Smash Bros. where you can spawn any amount of enemies with certain traits (stationary, aggressive, passive, etc.) and then you could pull up tips or have the tutorial focus on a certain aspect of the game so if there's something specific you don't understand, it could help you out. It wouldn't make you a master at the game, but it would at least hopefully prevent newcomers to the series from getting too frustrated with the learning curve and just giving up on the game all together, proceeding to give it bad reviews to everyone they know, thus turning even more people off from the game :|

    I don't know how I feel about that. What I liked about Demon's Souls training level is that I felt like "ok, I have the basics" when I started Boletaria Palace. I still got slapped around a lot and it was still a steep learning curve, but that was by design. Miyazaki wanted to force the player to pay attention constantly, to learn how enemies fight, so the player could grow and master defeating the enemy through trial and error.

    This is what I worry about with the direction Shibuya will take - if this process gets dumbed down, I think it will ruin the game for seasoned Souls players.

    I think it's completely fair to offer a training level that's more than what we had in Dark Souls, maybe not as specific as what we got in Demon's Souls. Just enough to get you comfortable with how things work.
    I wonder if adding a description graphic to each new object you encounter would help. It only pops up the first time you encounter something (bonfire, estus flask, summon sign, etc), but the description gets added to your journal/inventory so you can reference it later.

    Now that I think of it, a journal would be awesome. We currently have no way to study the DS lore except in loading screens...
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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by DE5PA1R on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:59 pm

    I think the journey to the Nexus was pretty well-done. Maybe we could even summon an NPC to see how that works. I think a lot of the "inaccessibility" comes down to the fact that the online components are not closely linked to the rest of the game.

    I do think that the game did much more hand-holding for the player than is given credit for, though it's so extremely subtle that I'm still discovering such tiny details. IMO, the learning/difficulty curve in Dark Souls was flawlessly executed.


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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by aprilmanha on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:30 pm

    bosslugger wrote:
    This is what I worry about with the direction Shibuya will take - if this process gets dumbed down, I think it will ruin the game for seasoned Souls players.

    If it was made skip-able then I don't see any tutorial ruining the game for the seasoned players, who already know how to play the game?
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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:38 pm

    There already is a tutorial level: The Undead Asylum.

    Teaches you: basic combat mechanics, bonfires respawn you, look for ways out of or around a fight that is at first insurmountable, how to heal, how to equip gear, trying to roll while running will jump (and catches arrows with your chest if you were trying to dodge!), watch out for traps, look around corners before rushing in, how to parry, plunging attack, etc., etc.

    What more do you possibly need to know in order to be able to start the game? In Dark Souls, you learn by doing--both by doing well, and from your mistakes! Having a completely in-depth tutorial would take all that learning process out of the game, and would be a huge loss for the player. It's the whole soul of the game! And it would be wasted.

    Also: I definitely don't want any videos or graphical prompts 1. Interrupting my gameplay and 2. Being far too obvious. The tutorial, the way it is now, is absolutely fine. If it's too steep a learning curve for some, THEIR LOSS. Because any more tutorial would be OUR LOSS, to the fans, and that would be unacceptable of a franchise that built itself on a solid fanbase.


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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by defacto on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:45 pm

    Honestly a tutorial like in Demon's but with a coop tutorial would be all you need.

    This game is a joke once you know how to summon. Having 3 people will allow you to mow down anything in your path.
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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by Seignar on Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:21 pm

    BLA1NE wrote:There already is a tutorial level: The Undead Asylum.

    Teaches you: basic combat mechanics, bonfires respawn you, look for ways out of or around a fight that is at first insurmountable, how to heal, how to equip gear, trying to roll while running will jump (and catches arrows with your chest if you were trying to dodge!), watch out for traps, look around corners before rushing in, how to parry, plunging attack, etc., etc.

    What more do you possibly need to know in order to be able to start the game? In Dark Souls, you learn by doing--both by doing well, and from your mistakes! Having a completely in-depth tutorial would take all that learning process out of the game, and would be a huge loss for the player. It's the whole soul of the game! And it would be wasted.

    Also: I definitely don't want any videos or graphical prompts 1. Interrupting my gameplay and 2. Being far too obvious. The tutorial, the way it is now, is absolutely fine. If it's too steep a learning curve for some, THEIR LOSS. Because any more tutorial would be OUR LOSS, to the fans, and that would be unacceptable of a franchise that built itself on a solid fanbase.
    You're exaggerating. The undead asylum did not provide crucial information like the basic workings of online or throw escape. No one (except you) is going to think it is a step back if the tutorial actually goes in to tell you that you can avoid online by remaining hollow. Also, you learn by practice of what you were taught in the tutorial, how can you practice if you don't know all your controls!?


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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by bosslugger on Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:29 pm

    aprilmanha wrote:
    bosslugger wrote:
    This is what I worry about with the direction Shibuya will take - if this process gets dumbed down, I think it will ruin the game for seasoned Souls players.

    If it was made skip-able then I don't see any tutorial ruining the game for the seasoned players, who already know how to play the game?

    That's not what concerns me. What I'm worried about is Shibuya making the overall experience "more accessible", ie, dumbing down the mechanics and spelling out everything for the player, rather than letting us discover on our own.

    Not knowing the history of people, places and things and being fed only tidbits at a time, piecing the story together through hard work - that is the Souls experience, and I'd like to see that remain intact. Building a solid tutorial level would help that.
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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:59 pm

    Seignar wrote:You're exaggerating. The undead asylum did not provide crucial information like the basic workings of online or throw escape. No one (except you) is going to think it is a step back if the tutorial actually goes in to tell you that you can avoid online by remaining hollow. Also, you learn by practice of what you were taught in the tutorial, how can you practice if you don't know all your controls!?
    You learn online mechanics through Solaire and other NPCs, item descriptions, and experience, experimentation. And if you want to learn more, you can always turn to the community. It's true, the first thing I looked online to learn about Dark Souls was covenants, because online mechanics were quite obscure at first. But what did that lead to? Me joining what has become this amazing community we have now. If the Asylum had taught me everything I needed to know about online, I guarantee you I would never have looked or joined a wiki for this game. Like I said, it would have been a huge loss for me, and I'm sure I wouldn't have been the only one, it would have been a huge loss to this game's community and fanbase.

    And about the controls, I don't know what you mean... You're holding the controller, press the buttons. You've learned the controls! You learn Dark Souls by playing it, it's part of the experience. You learn the basics in the first level, then develop your skills yourself. If there were any more depth to the Asylum tutorial, it would be way too much information right away.


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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by wolfboy on Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:45 am

    BLA1NE wrote:You learn online mechanics through Solaire and other NPCs, item descriptions, and experience, experimentation. And if you want to learn more, you can always turn to the community. It's true, the first thing I looked online to learn about Dark Souls was covenants, because online mechanics were quite obscure at first. But what did that lead to? Me joining what has become this amazing community we have now. If the Asylum had taught me everything I needed to know about online, I guarantee you I would never have looked or joined a wiki for this game. Like I said, it would have been a huge loss for me, and I'm sure I wouldn't have been the only one, it would have been a huge loss to this game's community and fanbase.

    This^

    The community is stronger because of this game's difficulty. Because the game is so frustrating, you have to seek out help- whether through a forum, or an orange message or a summon.

    I think the Asylum is a perfect tutorial for the game- and I hope Dark Souls II takes a similar approach...
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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by hageshisa on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:41 am

    I wish for no tutorial level. I liked the confusion i got for my first 100 hours of DkS : ) Steep learningcurves for the win!


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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by Bioraptor on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:38 am

    BLA1NE wrote:There already is a tutorial level: The Undead Asylum.

    Teaches you: basic combat mechanics, bonfires respawn you, look for ways out of or around a fight that is at first insurmountable, how to heal, how to equip gear, trying to roll while running will jump (and catches arrows with your chest if you were trying to dodge!), watch out for traps, look around corners before rushing in, how to parry, plunging attack, etc., etc.

    What more do you possibly need to know in order to be able to start the game? In Dark Souls, you learn by doing--both by doing well, and from your mistakes! Having a completely in-depth tutorial would take all that learning process out of the game, and would be a huge loss for the player. It's the whole soul of the game! And it would be wasted.

    Also: I definitely don't want any videos or graphical prompts 1. Interrupting my gameplay and 2. Being far too obvious. The tutorial, the way it is now, is absolutely fine. If it's too steep a learning curve for some, THEIR LOSS. Because any more tutorial would be OUR LOSS, to the fans, and that would be unacceptable of a franchise that built itself on a solid fanbase.
    Good point.I am hoping they do not go to far with this like telling you what everything in the game does or what X Y Z is for and how to use it.This would kill the game for me.The whole concept that DkS did not hold your hand was what got me hooked.I hope they keep that integrinty to the game.


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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:42 am

    I'm fine with it since both games had them. Though I would like if as in Demon's, you could skip it. Or get a special reward if you defeat the boss at the end.

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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by bosslugger on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:45 am

    Yes but remember, that was Miyazumi's style, not to hold your hand and let you explore. Shibuya may have a completely different approach here, which is what concerns me about making the game "more straightforward".
    I think it's safe to say that Souls is a franchise, whether we like it or not. All we can hope is that Shibuya and team find a way to strike that balance between casual gamers who want to check out the game and the hardcore of us who've invested the time and love getting our butts kicked. I'm not sure how to do that, but I get the feeling Shibuya will want to compromise here.

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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by Nybbles on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:57 pm

    a good tutorial for a Souls game is needed and the Demon's tutorial was pretty good in my opinion. it was a better introduction to the game than the tutorial in Dark. it placed a bad guy in front of you that needed to be defeated using a particular tactic and once you figured out the tactic you could move on. by the end of the tutorial you understood the basic mechanics of combat. i don't think Dark did this nearly as well as Demon's did.

    the biggest problem with either tutorial was that new players didn't read the messages that told them exactly what they were supposed to do. i definitely DO NOT want hints or prompts to get all up in my face telling me to "Do This Now". the messages are fine as is, but you have to actually read them!

    having an NPC or phantom you could follow and mimic would be a really good idea though. monkey see, monkey do in a manner of speaking.

    what would be even more helpful would be to include a controller schematic in the options menu. not to change the button mapping, but so you can at least get a glimpse of what the button layout is.

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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by hageshisa on Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:26 pm

    bosslugger wrote:Yes but remember, that was Miyazumi's style, not to hold your hand and let you explore. Shibuya may have a completely different approach here, which is what concerns me about making the game "more straightforward".
    I think it's safe to say that Souls is a franchise, whether we like it or not. All we can hope is that Shibuya and team find a way to strike that balance between casual gamers who want to check out the game and the hardcore of us who've invested the time and love getting our butts kicked. I'm not sure how to do that, but I get the feeling Shibuya will want to compromise here.

    If you have played Monster Hunter you'll now that Shibuya ain't famous for an easy approach to the games he's involved with : )


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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:39 pm

    Bosslugger, the Bolterian palace was the training level, half health, no summons, no invasions, just you all by yourself. Dark Souls really needed something similar, you could summon as soon you got to the burg, you were never forced to fight on your own and so there are players that never developed the proper skills.


    And Taurus was a joke compared to Phallanx.


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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by bosslugger on Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:01 pm

    Sloth9230 wrote:Bosslugger, the Bolterian palace was the training level, half health, no summons, no invasions, just you all by yourself. Dark Souls really needed something similar, you could summon as soon you got to the burg, you were never forced to fight on your own and so there are players that never developed the proper skills.


    And Taurus was a joke compared to Phallanx.

    Yes and no. You had to fight through half the Burg before getting to Solaire, but yes, after that you had phantoms that could help with the Gargoyles. Still there's nothing that explained how summoning works, or rules of engagement or anything - that all happened because of the community, which is as it should be.

    I will agree though, plunging as a means of cheap-shotting a boss sucks. I'd rather fight one-on-one, fair and square. To me, Artorias was the best boss battle out there - mano a mano, duking it out, a great battle. I never needed help with him, just learned his move set and beat the crap outta him.

    But I do think new players should get to experience what we've come to love. However, the game should not be dumbed down to accommodate them, nor should there be any hand-holding after said tutorial level. Once you've been trained, you're on your own. No maps, no quicktime explanations, no casual mode. Just you, and your imminent death.
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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:05 pm

    Actually, you can summon without getting the stone from Solaire... I've done it lol

    And Artorias is also my favorite boss, something about watching him smash me into the ground over and over again is just so enetertaining.


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    Re: Adding a tutorial level to Dark Souls II...discuss

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:59 pm

    http://youtu.be/8FpigqfcvlM

    All I need out of a tutorial.

    I think that the Dark Tutorial wasn't as good as the Demon's one, but not in conveyance. The main two issues for me was that you couldn't skip it, and the boss was too easy. In general I consider Dark more difficult but I feel the Asylum Demon was absolutely pitiful. You can of course rush through the Asylum really quickly, but I still wouldn't mind an options to just skip it.

    But I do like the idea of having an NPC to give you ideas. Maybe having someone not side by side with you. But someone you can see, like looking into the distance and seeing someone showing off an attack, how to dodge, show someone fighting a boss before you.

    Yet, bloodstains also can fill that role really. I think there are ways to improve the tutorial, but I'm fine with the current method really.

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