Testing of Karmic Justice (NEED Candidates!)

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    ChizFreak
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    Testing of Karmic Justice (NEED Candidates!)

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:37 am

    I'm doing all this to put my final results in the wiki. Don't worry about it, once my testings are finished, I will be posting this in the wiki.

    I've testing this miracle against the painted guardians in Anor Londo. It seems that the damage of the miracle depends on how much damage you receive until it is triggered. I'm not sure if stacks the damage of the 5 consecutive hits it's required to be triggered, or stacks the damage of all the hits you receive, even from those which where not included in the succession of hits that triggered the explosion.

    I don't like to write numbers. I'm just saying the results I get from on-field testing. I was also testing the glitch concerning this miracle and catalysts. I will not go into details with this glitch, but for now my testing suggests it's still working.

    In the following days I will be testing this Miracle in PvP.

    EDIT 1: Further testing confirmed that health remaining doesn't affect the damage output. I tested this by triggering the miracle, and then triggering the miracle in the same instances but while healing with Estus. The damage was the same.

    EDIT 2: Important NEWS. My testing indicates that having any kind of item in the right hand when the effect is triggered causes the damage to be amplified. Even if it's a weapon like in my case: Magic Long Sword +5. I'm still testing what are calculations behind the damage output, but I'm 100% sure of this.

    EDIT 3: The damage does not depend AT ALL of the Talisman you use to cast it with, nor of it's MAG ADJ.

    EDIT 4: I'm still some times getting different numbers, I have 2 theories: the time it takes between the cast and the trigger affects the damage output (very unlikely) OR the enemies you're facing receive the full damage, and to the sides and behind you receive reduced. UPDATE: This was caused because sometimes the miracle did Counter Damage, Karmic Justice tends to do counter damage as it triggers when an enemy is attacking you, that's why sometimes you do more damage than usual when the explosion triggers.

    EDIT 5: I'm going to get into what I don't like: numbers. According to my calculations, for each 1 point of MAG ADJ, damage is increased by 2,68 points (aprox.). This equation gave me a margin of error of 2 points, so I'm staying with this one, which is 99% exact. The MAG ADJ I'm talking about is the one of the catalyst you're holding in your right hand at the time of the trigger. I can say that the damage of the miracle is calculated at the moment of the trigger and not before. Another details: Dusk Crown increases it's damage, I have to do the math of how much, but I believe it will be the standard amount it does to other spells, and finally, Bellowing Crest Ring doesn't increase damage in any way. Oh, and same rule applies for Talismans in the right hand. I still have to test how is the damage affected when you have a standard weapon in your right hand (either magic or not). I almost forgot, those 2 previous theories I mentioned in EDIT 4 were both incorrect.

    EDIT 6: Obviously the damage is affected by magic defenses and such, so testing it in different enemies generates different damages, but always between the equations I'm posting. I ask for the help of the forum now: test my equation to see if it's correct. Remember the result can vary by 2 or 3 points (I just got a variety of 2). And to be more specific, if someone could test how much damage you do to the hollows holding torches of Painted World, it would be great. You have to test it with bellowing crest ring (just in case, though it doesn't modify damage), and without any weapons equipped (you also can't equip Dusk Crown or the Crown of Gwyndolin), and you have to test it against the 3 first hollows in that area, because I don't know if the others have the same stats. Following these rules, the damage to those hollows should be 185. With a catalyst or talisman with 180 MAG ADJ (like Oolacile Ivory Catalyst), the damage should be most of the time 400. Remember to do all of this without Dusk Crown.

    EDIT 7: I have one new theory: there are counter attacks, at least when it comes to this miracle, because it seems to always do the same damage, except in few situations, and I think the cause is the current state of the enemy. This is very hard to test, so it will take some time.

    EDIT 8: All these numbers are worthless if I can't test them on a player. So I need a candidate to do it. If possible with many different sets of armors and the ring that boosts magic defense by 50. After this final test I can get exact numbers of Attack Rating, not damage, because all my findings are based on the magic defense of the hollow torch holders of Painted World. I need a player to calculate his defenses and take from there the true Attack Rating of this miracle. Attack Rating is the pure damage something does, before calculating the defenses of the opponent (thus reducing it). Once I have the AR, I can figure out the true Equation based on the MAG ADJ.

    EDIT 10: I have confirmed that when you have a weapon in your right hand, it only amplifies the spell if it has somekind of magic damage, the more magic damage the weapon has, the more the spell is amplified. Now there is something strange: it seems that either Occult weapons, or just weapons that scale with Faith, have a higher multiplier than Magic Weapons. This means that even if a Magic weapon does more magic damage than an Occult weapon, there is still possible that the Occult weapons amplifies more the Miracle. I'm still testing this because I have very few weapons with these properties.

    EDIT 11: Here are some numbers related to what I mentioned in the previous EDIT:

    Occult Club +0 - 154 magic damage - 267 miracle damage - multiplier of 1,73 almost 1,74

    Magic Long Sword +5 - 158 magic damage - 248 miracle damage - multiplier of 1,56
    Magic Warrior Round Shield +3 - 61 magic damage - 201 miracle damage - multiplier of 3,29
    Moonlight Butterfly Horn +0 - 168 magic damage - 293 miracle damage - multiplier of 1,74

    Multipliers are very close, the odd thing is the shield, which while only having 61 magic damage does 201 miracle damage. This makes me think that there may be a minimum of damage output. Unarmed the miracle damage is 185, so it would make sense that having a magic weapon in your right hand, even though the calculations wouldn't match, it would have to be above the miracle damage while unarmed.

    These tests where made on the 3 first hollows of Painted World of Ariamis in NG (standard NG).


    Last edited by ChizFreak on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:41 pm; edited 19 times in total


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    Re: Testing of Karmic Justice (NEED Candidates!)

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:03 am

    Some testing results were already posted on YT.
    The miracle activates itself based on a number of consecutive hits that do damage to your HP. That means you can activate it by blocking with less that 100% physical reduction shield.
    For some reason, people aren't used to Karmic Justice in PvP and will bash your Grass Crest Shield and get blasted away. I think they misinterpret the spell with Wolf Ring, or with VoS.

    Also, Karmic Justice doesn't use MagAdjust of your talisman, but of your right hand weapon in the moment it activates. It uses any MagAdjust, or makes it's own MagAdjust based on magical damage of the equipped weapon. MLGS works well for this.
    If you would have 50 Faith and 50 Int and equipped TCC in your right hand, it will do crazy damage, around 1200 and more, while if you would have equipped Darkmoon Talisman it would do around 900-1000.
    The damage is from random PvP, so it can vary a lot.

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    Re: Testing of Karmic Justice (NEED Candidates!)

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:20 am

    Sentiel wrote:Some testing results were already posted on YT.
    The miracle activates itself based on a number of consecutive hits that do damage to your HP. That means you can activate it by blocking with less that 100% physical reduction shield.
    For some reason, people aren't used to Karmic Justice in PvP and will bash your Grass Crest Shield and get blasted away. I think they misinterpret the spell with Wolf Ring, or with VoS.

    Also, Karmic Justice doesn't use MagAdjust of your talisman, but of your right hand weapon in the moment it activates. It uses any MagAdjust, or makes it's own MagAdjust based on magical damage of the equipped weapon. MLGS works well for this.
    If you would have 50 Faith and 50 Int and equipped TCC in your right hand, it will do crazy damage, around 1200 and more, while if you would have equipped Darkmoon Talisman it would do around 900-1000.
    The damage is from random PvP, so it can vary a lot.

    I already knew that about shields. And I haven't seen those testings about damage you talk about, but I'm glad that my testings ended with the same results. I'm going for exact numbers here. Check my last edit.

    And that variaton between TCC and Darkmoon is because TCC has higher MAG ADJ. And the damage in PvP it's not random, it's affected by magic defenses and such, that's why it changes from player to player, I need a candidate to test Karmic Justice on.


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    Re: Testing of Karmic Justice (NEED Candidates!)

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:47 am

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:Some testing results were already posted on YT.
    The miracle activates itself based on a number of consecutive hits that do damage to your HP. That means you can activate it by blocking with less that 100% physical reduction shield.
    For some reason, people aren't used to Karmic Justice in PvP and will bash your Grass Crest Shield and get blasted away. I think they misinterpret the spell with Wolf Ring, or with VoS.

    Also, Karmic Justice doesn't use MagAdjust of your talisman, but of your right hand weapon in the moment it activates. It uses any MagAdjust, or makes it's own MagAdjust based on magical damage of the equipped weapon. MLGS works well for this.
    If you would have 50 Faith and 50 Int and equipped TCC in your right hand, it will do crazy damage, around 1200 and more, while if you would have equipped Darkmoon Talisman it would do around 900-1000.
    The damage is from random PvP, so it can vary a lot.

    I already knew that about shields. And I haven't seen those testings about damage you talk about, but I'm glad that my testings ended with the same results. I'm going for exact numbers here. Check my last edit.

    And that variaton between TCC and Darkmoon is because TCC has higher MAG ADJ. And the damage in PvP it's not random, it's affected by magic defenses and such, that's why it changes from player to player, I need a candidate to test Karmic Justice on.
    Yes, I wanted to say, that all that matters is MagAdjust, or Mag Dmg, not if it is Talisman, or no.

    I know the damage isn't random. I meant that it was used in random PvP, that it wasn't a test when I tried it out.

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    Re: Testing of Karmic Justice (NEED Candidates!)

    Post by Seignar on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:29 am

    Click my signature on "The Karmic Justice Phenomenon" (which you did post in Chiz) it should provide some info on the damage of Karmic Justice and has a video as "evidence" I think.

    Basically, what it says (and confirms a bit a few posts on) is that Karmic Justice is affected by your right hand, not your left. I tested it and casting the same talisman in your right hand as you did in your left yields different results.

    Btw, don't post it, it's kind of old.

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    Re: Testing of Karmic Justice (NEED Candidates!)

    Post by bunnywink on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:33 am

    As someone who uses Karmic Justice on all my faith builds and never completely understanding how it works, thank you for posting this! big grin

    I was in Oolacile and got invaded by a phantom who casted Dark Bead on me and my KJ counter killed him. If you need any help with testing, let me know!


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    Re: Testing of Karmic Justice (NEED Candidates!)

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:01 pm

    bunnywink wrote:As someone who uses Karmic Justice on all my faith builds and never completely understanding how it works, thank you for posting this! big grin

    I was in Oolacile and got invaded by a phantom who casted Dark Bead on me and my KJ counter killed him. If you need any help with testing, let me know!

    That would be awesome bunny! I'm gonna add you right now on PSN, ok? If I see you online playing Dark Souls I will send you a message asking for help in these testings.


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    Re: Testing of Karmic Justice (NEED Candidates!)

    Post by Alastro on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:08 am

    Okay so here are the results of my testing. Things most know: Crown of Dusk and Ring of the Sun's Firstborn both amplify the power of KJ.

    Things we may not know: For best affects you want the talisman in your left hand when you cast KJ. (I'd suggest Tin Crystal Cat in the right) The reason being, is because the magic amplifier value increases the power of this particular miracle. KJ is a weird spell as it seems to be casted as a sorcery but deals damage as a Miracle. Which is why using the Velka's talisman may actually serve you better then DMT. It's also the same reason why the Bellowing Dragoncrest Ring won't affect the damage but the Ring of the Sun's Firstborn will. BDR amplifies magic damage. RotSF amplifies Miracle damage.

    How much damage I've taken generally doesn't seemingly matter. This may be because the build I'm using is a glass cannon. Currently only at 60 but with 40 int and 21 faith I'm doing on average about 800-1200. The people I'm doing 800 to are usually those who have hire magic def armor so it makes sense. The point I'm trying to make is that my int may be drastically affecting the damage I do.

    With all this said triggering seems to be the most troubling thing for me. 5 consecutive hits seems to be best way to trigger KJ, but I have taken massive damage that has also activated it. The trouble is that it can't be just basic attacks, potentially even strong attacks. I'm unsure as of right now because I'm doing all my testing on trial and error invasions but knock downs do seem to active it. Just knock downs kill me pretty easily.

    Pro Tip: Don't get back-stabbed. While this would be a fantastic counter to lag-stabs, (my arch nemesis) it won't assist you in any form or fashion. UNLESS: It is the 5th hit that comes from a furry of blows. I've been BS'ed before and triggered KJ but it was when being swarmed by a summoner and his summons. Killed them all. It was a great feeling.
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    Re: Testing of Karmic Justice (NEED Candidates!)

    Post by Rynn on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:42 am

    So does it do the 1200 when you use both the Firstborn and the dusk crown?
    was 1200 boosted or base?

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    Re: Testing of Karmic Justice (NEED Candidates!)

    Post by Panther180 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:23 pm

    Karmic justice is so funny, i have record some videos happy

    I have 50 fe and 50 int using red ring and firstborn ring
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBrY761Gfyc
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhW9xI8vu54

    In this video is a counter attack of spam de Wrath of the Gods lol!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q45LnaFshRQ
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    Re: Testing of Karmic Justice (NEED Candidates!)

    Post by ChizFreak on Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:48 pm

    Lol guys you should stop with reviving dead threads with Necromancy.


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