TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

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    chuck woolery

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    TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by chuck woolery on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:11 am

    Dark Souls to me is art. And art doesn't compromise. It's meant to be interpreted, felt, appreciated. It is subtle.

    Making DS more 'accessible' and 'straightforward', in hopes of capturing more gamer $ will RUIN this art.

    Popularizing art RUINS ART. Is that a sacrifice From and Bandai are willing to make?

    To me, games like Skyrim are like Hungry Man dinners. They are easily accessible, available in large quantities, and sometimes (at least to me) darn good.

    Dark Souls is like your favorite fine dining or local ramen place that only takes cash. Its does not compromise, and has that something special that you love.

    To me, the Japanese have managed to elevate video games to a new art form. The way Dark Souls builds on classic video game themes and mechanics while creating such a great fiction, atmosphere, and game play is truly inspired.

    And take a game like Eternal Sonata. Call me a sap, but while on the surface its another bubblegum JRPG, it in fact has a meaningful story and all of the quotations at the end were moving and brilliant.

    PLEASE, OH PLEASE don't let Dark Souls go the way of popularization and commercialism at the expense of the art.

    Some have said that since Miyazaki will still be in a supervisor role, this is not a risk.

    I question that and fear he's been shoved aside and kept around as a name only and to generally keep the now 'franchise' at least true to its fiction if not its art.

    And he's been so humble and honorable about it in every interview. But quotes like the below make me fear he's now just part of a money-making venture:

    GC:What are you plans for the continuation of the Dark Souls franchise? Will there be any more DLC? If you are contemplating any sequel would that be for current gen consoles or next gen hardware?HM:Even if a sequel of Dark Souls is decided to be created, it is still uncertain whether I will be chosen to get involved in the development since the decision maker is not me, so I better not say anything about the uncertainty. If I reveal my unprepared opinion here, the decision makers may scold me!

    We know that these games are made to make money but I BESEECH YOU!

    This game can continue to spread in popularity be teaching folks to appreciate it; it need not be popularized and made into junk food for the masses who have not acquired the taste!!!

    Thanks for reading.
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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by defacto on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:03 pm

    Shibuya emailed me and told me that he reads these forums daily and that he has had your post translated.

    But I think he might have mistranslated it because he is now planning to make different hair colors DLC, an option to unlock +15 weapons for 5 dollars or 400 microsoft points and the default game mode will be easy mode. You can only unlock hard mode after you beat it on easy mode and every new character must start in easy mode.

    AND IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!

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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by chuck woolery on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:01 pm

    Funny.
    Whatever man.. just saying what I know is on some people's minds. No, there isn't much chance of Shibuya reading this forum but if they were smart they would; it's a great way to see what fans are thinking. Also I wouldn't be surprised if he can read english. Anyway it's the internet so things get around, and I thought I'd do something other than post smart *** comments.
    If they make Dark Souls a 'franchise' for the sheeple, it will be very disappointing
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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:33 pm

    Here, here!

    I concur.
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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:34 pm

    I don't expect them to produce anything less than awesome, but on the off chance they do, oh well! We had Demon and Dark Souls and they were great. Nothing gold can stay.

    I agree with what you say and I admired you analogy to art, but I do disagree that a failed sequel will compromise anything more than the companies reputation. DKS1 and Demon Souls will not be compromised. Not all of Da Vinci's paintings after the Mona Lisa were as great, but that doesnt subtract anything from the painting itself.

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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by chuck woolery on Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:58 pm

    BIG TIME MASTER wrote:I don't expect them to produce anything less than awesome, but on the off chance they do, oh well! We had Demon and Dark Souls and they were great. Nothing gold can stay.

    I agree with what you say and I admired you analogy to art, but I do disagree that a failed sequel will compromise anything more than the companies reputation. DKS1 and Demon Souls will not be compromised. Not all of Da Vinci's paintings after the Mona Lisa were as great, but that doesnt subtract anything from the painting itself.
    Good point... and it's possible that future generations will look back on DKS1 with reverence. Especially if DKS2 ends up being little more than the next steaming helping of stimulation for the 'mainstream' gamer's ultra-short (and shortening) attention span.
    If that's the case, I'll have to just turn the other way and plug my ears.
    Guess one doesnt "set out to make a classic". They just happen.
    But I gotta say, it's kind of like that feeling when your favorite band sells out and releases some consumer-oriented tripe. Some part of you is glad they are not starving musciains anymore, but you never hear them the same way again. Only worse, because the gamer's art already has a limited audience compared to music from day one, so it's even more questionable to sell out rather than hold the line, if that makes sense.
    But you're probably right DKS2 will be awesome either way.
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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by Buggy Virus on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:06 pm

    Popularizing isn't a bad thing. . . making it a worse game is.

    Honestly, what turned a ton of players off in the first two hours of playing was that you really didn't know what you were doing at all. I know people who quit at the drake bridge, because after being set on fire the first time they figured they couldn't go that way.

    I really enjoy it, but at a point, it is somewhat overly inaccessible.


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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by chuck woolery on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:44 pm

    If DkS could be popularized, without compromising it's artistic merits, I would be all for it.
    The beauty of this game was that it was UNCOMPROMISING. Now, they are talking about making compromises. Wrong way to go, and I contend not necessary to get more gamers!
    What the designers did here was drop you into a world and insist you find your way through it based on your senses, wits, and skill alone. All of the clues were there if you looked for them. crestfallen warrior, others you talked to, for example.
    And I, for one, was not so foolhardy as to go across that bridge when there was barbecued corpses and charred bricks all over the place, without looking for an alternative first happy
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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by Buggy Virus on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:59 pm

    chuck woolery wrote:If DkS could be popularized, without compromising it's artistic merits, I would be all for it.
    The beauty of this game was that it was UNCOMPROMISING. Now, they are talking about making compromises. Wrong way to go, and I contend not necessary to get more gamers!
    What the designers did here was drop you into a world and insist you find your way through it based on your senses, wits, and skill alone. All of the clues were there if you looked for them. crestfallen warrior, others you talked to, for example.
    And I, for one, was not so foolhardy as to go across that bridge when there was barbecued corpses and charred bricks all over the place, without looking for an alternative first happy

    I mean, there is no way to learn about poise/magic/defense/scaling/covenant uses in game. . . Unless you randomly guessed or tested, you had to look online. There is a balance to strike here.


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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by chuck woolery on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:31 pm

    Yeah there is a balance to strike on some of that info so that testing is not the only means of discovery, I would agree... as far as the stats go. There should at least be detailed descriptions available somewhere on what the impact of the stat is. The impact of scaling was particularly unclear, although you could infer alot.
    As far as things like impact of covenants go.. I think it's part of the mystery of discovery...
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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:16 am

    Just a few more orange soapstone messages at the beginning to explain the usage of humanity would have been all I needed, TBH. Sure I got lost and extremely frustrated and actually quit the game for a while at the beginning, but that is precisely why I love it. I am somewhat proud of the fact that I stuck with it where I know that others quit, and the best part is getting new players into the game, the type who wouldn't play themselves or would quit, and giving them just enough help to get through and enjoy it. I am helping my brother through his first playthrough, and he seemed to quit at Blighttown for a while until I was able to help him via jolly co-operation, and after ringing the bell he was pretty excited. What other game can make an experience like that? It's the same as if I taught a kid how to throw a ball of ride a bike.

    Let me restate that I do NOT expect FROM to compromise this nearly as much as we expect, but I think if the game gave you the help you need and takes away that challenge that is enough to turn away some gamers, it would lose half of its charm.
    Like OP said, DKS is special because it is uncompromising, which forces you the player to be compromising to meet the games rules! In essence, it forces you to change yourself and obviously in todays culture of "gimme,gimme,gimme, I want more, now!" this isn't what the majority of people want. But enough people do want a game with some real character to warrant a sequel, it seems.
    It's not the fact of popularization that would detract from the game, it is the likelihood that the only way to make it appeal to more people is to make the game more compromising, so that the less determined among us get enough relief when they need it to stick with the game.


    That being said, if they explain the games mechanics outright either in game in or the manual, I would expect that they could then increase the difficulty of the combat itself and still be fair. Most of DKS difficulty lays in the beginning when you have to figure everything out, so if they gave you the knowledge to begin with they could decrease the games threshold for player mistakes (like increase combat speed, enemy hitting power, aggression, etc). I think I would like that more later in the game, but nothing is like that first play through where you are like a blind man learning to walk.






    NOTE: Sorry for the long post, but I love talking about things I love, and I love DKS
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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by bloodpixel on Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:34 am

    I think you guys are overreacting.


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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:46 am

    The way I see it even if DKS2 is a total flop, at least they'll know what not to do for DKS3. Anyway, I think everyone should wait for more announcements before jumping the gun.

    And yes explaining the mechanics more clearly would go a long way to making this game more accessible.


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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by Tomhet on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:07 am

    Although I must say I agree with OP, I also must admit that I panicked after watching the trailer and hearing all that stuff about the new directors. We should probably wait but I do feel more optimistic now. My reasoning is this: if they decided to expand the Dark Souls story, they must feel pretty confident with the project. Besides, I suspect that they have tons of cool unused stuff from the first game that will be featured in the next.

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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by chuck woolery on Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:52 am

    Indeed.
    Hope we're overreacting.. but why did Shibuya assert that he is more straightforward?
    I swear if the hardcore fans cake walk thru this, better put on your gas mask cause there's gonna be a big stink... starting with people crapping all over these forums. :p
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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by DE5PA1R on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:09 pm

    OP: I appreciate that others see the Souls series in this light. I devote some time to the design aspect of Dark Souls in my vid below. Please let me know what you think.

    http://youtu.be/_VBzaxJba8E?t=3m


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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by Raem on Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:22 pm

    I don't care if the new Dark Souls 2 will be a moneymaker. I will just send the game back. And wherever one falls a new hero rises from the ashes. As long the ember glows there will be good games. But beware of the Dark Lord.

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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by chuck woolery on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:52 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:OP: I appreciate that others see the Souls series in this light. I devote some time to the design aspect of Dark Souls in my vid below. Please let me know what you think.

    [url=http://youtu.be/_VBzaxJba8E?t=3m
    http://youtu.be/_VBzaxJba8E?t=3m[/quote[/url]]
    Hey man, enjoying listening to your thoughts on the art. Havent gotten through it all yet, have it open for free time. What you say about the nature of design and the consistency of artistic expression makes sense as well. It's the whole package: visuals, sound, atmosphere, gameplay, how it makes the player _feel_. You can really tell they put alot into that. And to your point, I dont think alot of it was "designed up front", that concept is a fallacy.
    Take a game like The Witcher2.. the way it "looks" and it's fiction have alot of artistic merit, but I don't think it's original or unique in terms of design. Although very creative, as a whole, it doesnt feel new or unique. But still very cool, with some new elements. And man that intro was bad-***.
    Dark Souls as a whole takes video games to a higher level, IMO. I also think ME (the original) did this, but not as well as DkS.
    Anyway, props to you for getting it out there. Do you do design work for a living? Is that something you aspire to?
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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by DE5PA1R on Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:30 pm

    chuck woolery wrote:Hey man, enjoying listening to your thoughts on the art. Havent gotten through it all yet, have it open for free time. What you say about the nature of design and the consistency of artistic expression makes sense as well. It's the whole package: visuals, sound, atmosphere, gameplay, how it makes the player _feel_. You can really tell they put alot into that. And to your point, I dont think alot of it was "designed up front", that concept is a fallacy.
    Take a game like The Witcher2.. the way it "looks" and it's fiction have alot of artistic merit, but I don't think it's original or unique in terms of design. Although very creative, as a whole, it doesnt feel new or unique. But still very cool, with some new elements. And man that intro was bad-***.
    Dark Souls as a whole takes video games to a higher level, IMO. I also think ME (the original) did this, but not as well as DkS.
    Anyway, props to you for getting it out there. Do you do design work for a living? Is that something you aspire to?

    Thanks! Always great to know the vid(s) I make are enjoyable.

    I 100% agree that quality-wise, the Souls series is on a different playing field compared to most games today.

    Funny you ask about my background. My wife is a designer at a magazine, and she introduced me to the field. I have a lot of respect for the trade, and I think that so far as design represents deep thought and care for a product, the world could use more of it.

    I'm personally a marketer at a mobile app company. We have plans to help out the Dark Souls/Dark Souls II community, but I can't say any more just yet. If you subscribe on Youtube, I'll have an update as soon as we can proceed.

    Thanks again.
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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by SlakeMoth on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:00 pm

    We all started the game reading from the same hymn sheet, none of us knew what we were in for but some threw a hissy fit at the first sign of failure. Those that didn't went on to experience one of the best, if not the best game ever made. It took me hours just to get past that first part in the Undead Burg but I persevered. I don't see why people who want success handed to them on a plate should take precedence over those who keep on keeping on.
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    Re: TOMOHIRO SHIBUYA: Dont compromise the art for new $$!!

    Post by Zakkia on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:46 pm

    Agreed on most of your points. I think back to the time when the Demons Souls wiki first got started. A ton of us were helping on the site and it was big for meeting people in game and it eventually became an analyzed builder. What if we never did that? What if we didn input those things, imagine what weapons and other things people would use instead of FaP ring, and havels other popular items. Just a thought, that they might be going for that. It would be a nice new twist if they reshaped it!

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