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    What's the story on the hidden critical for the Estoc?

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    What's the story on the hidden critical for the Estoc? Empty What's the story on the hidden critical for the Estoc?

    Post by Back Lot Basher Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:24 pm

    It says the crit is 100, but this is obviously incorrect, since backstabs do much more damage than comparable weapons. I've read posts where people refer to hidden criticals. Is this just an error in the game's weapon description? Has anyone tried to guess-timate what the actual critical is? I'm trying to decide whether to upgrade either the Estoc or the Rapier, and wanted to know which was the better choice.
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    Post by Sloth9230 Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:29 pm

    Maybe cause it thrust damage?
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    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:29 pm

    It's all Rapiers, not just the Estoc.

    It's some sort of hidden armor-piercing bonus. What it is ain't exactly clear, but it does exist.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:29 pm

    I'm not sure of exact numbers, but I've noticed the same thing. Don't take only my word on this, because I'm nowhere near positive, but I'm pretty sure the Rapier does more critical damage than the Estoc, but the Estoc also does more normal damage, has a longer reach, and I'd argue is more versatile because of it's R2's. If I'm going with a thrusting sword, and my toon isn't INT based, then usually I go with the Estoc, for those reasons.

    It also looks almost identical to the BSS, which means that, if you were so inclined, some fun PvP trickery can be had.


    Last edited by PlasticandRage on Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by FinPeku Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:31 pm

    Rapier for criticals, estoc if you are going to use it for something else as well. Estoc has better range and damage but rapier has higher criticals.
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    Post by Back Lot Basher Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:35 pm

    Damn...so hard to choose. I've always loved the Estoc's movest and decent reach, but I'm intrigued by the idea of having better crits for using the hornet ring. I'll try out the rapier for a good run and see how I like it.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:41 pm

    Be sure to post your results. I'd be interested in hearing them.
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    Post by FinPeku Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:05 pm

    I did some quick testing and here's some numbers:

    Stats 27 str 40 dex. NG Silver knights in anor londo. Hornet ring equipped.

    Backstab damage with +15 estoc: 899
    Backstab damage with +15 rapier: 980

    Whether that difference is significant enough to give up range and more versatile move set, is up to you.
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    Post by callipygias Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:05 pm

    Like Fin said, rapiers out-crit Estocs. But if you aren't in NG++ or anything the Estoc is still strong enough to 1-shot lots of bad guys. Great reach, too.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:09 pm

    FinPeku wrote:I did some quick testing and here's some numbers:

    Stats 27 str 40 dex. NG Silver knights in anor londo. Hornet ring equipped.

    Backstab damage with +15 estoc: 899
    Backstab damage with +15 rapier: 980

    Whether that difference is significant enough to give up range and more versatile move set, is up to you.

    That's good to know. I think I'll at least continue to use the Estoc
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    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:13 pm

    Velka's Rapier pwns all rapiers, BTW. tongue
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    Post by Sentiel Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:15 pm

    All Rapiers do extra critical damage on Backstab and Riposte.

    Rapier is the strongest when it comes to criticals, but it has terrible moveset and reach, compared with the rest. As soon as someone notices you using it, he will know you want to do criticals as it is very bad in normal fight.

    Estoc has great reach, as it is the longest rapier and it's R2 is great if used properly. It has the highest normal damage, but low critical.
    I persoanlly like it the best, as it can still do great critical and is usable in normal fight.

    Ricard's Rapier is similar to normal Rapier, but a bit longer. It's R2 is very fast spam of stabbing attacks, which is very deadly if buffed, but quite easy to parry, or backstab.

    Velka's Rapier is for Int builds, preferably with some Dex too. It's got the second longest reach and very usefull moveset, but thanks to it having split damage, it does the least actuall damage, especially in PvP and can't be buffed. It's still an awesome weapon for casters.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:16 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Velka's Rapier pwns all rapiers, BTW. tongue
    It's more situational though. I've found I generally do better damage with the Estoc if I'm not scaling INT
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    Post by callipygias Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:18 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Velka's Rapier pwns all rapiers, BTW. tongue
    In damage, no. In coolness, hell yes.
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    Post by The Letter X Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:52 pm

    Sentiel wrote:All Rapiers do extra critical damage on Backstab and Riposte.

    Rapier is the strongest when it comes to criticals, but it has terrible moveset and reach, compared with the rest. As soon as someone notices you using it, he will know you want to do criticals as it is very bad in normal fight.

    Estoc has great reach, as it is the longest rapier and it's R2 is great if used properly. It has the highest normal damage, but low critical.
    I persoanlly like it the best, as it can still do great critical and is usable in normal fight.

    Ricard's Rapier is similar to normal Rapier, but a bit longer. It's R2 is very fast spam of stabbing attacks, which is very deadly if buffed, but quite easy to parry, or backstab.

    Velka's Rapier is for Int builds, preferably with some Dex too. It's got the second longest reach and very usefull moveset, but thanks to it having split damage, it does the least actuall damage, especially in PvP and can't be buffed. It's still an awesome weapon for casters.

    I'd just like to chime in and say that the rapier's moveset is not terrible, quite good in my opinion. I'm sure you know that all weapons have their potential in the right hands, but I don't personally think the rapier is outclassed in every area by the Estoc besides critical damage. I know people will disagree with me, but I actually think the Estoc is more predictable. When you're only thinking "backstab" when you see a rapier you can be in real trouble if it doesn't come.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:14 pm

    The Letter X wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:All Rapiers do extra critical damage on Backstab and Riposte.

    Rapier is the strongest when it comes to criticals, but it has terrible moveset and reach, compared with the rest. As soon as someone notices you using it, he will know you want to do criticals as it is very bad in normal fight.

    Estoc has great reach, as it is the longest rapier and it's R2 is great if used properly. It has the highest normal damage, but low critical.
    I persoanlly like it the best, as it can still do great critical and is usable in normal fight.

    Ricard's Rapier is similar to normal Rapier, but a bit longer. It's R2 is very fast spam of stabbing attacks, which is very deadly if buffed, but quite easy to parry, or backstab.

    Velka's Rapier is for Int builds, preferably with some Dex too. It's got the second longest reach and very usefull moveset, but thanks to it having split damage, it does the least actuall damage, especially in PvP and can't be buffed. It's still an awesome weapon for casters.

    I'd just like to chime in and say that the rapier's moveset is not terrible, quite good in my opinion. I'm sure you know that all weapons have their potential in the right hands, but I don't personally think the rapier is outclassed in every area by the Estoc besides critical damage. I know people will disagree with me, but I actually think the Estoc is more predictable. When you're only thinking "backstab" when you see a rapier you can be in real trouble if it doesn't come.



    Yeah, I don't think the Rapier has a bad moveset either. I prefer the Estoc, but I've used the Rapier before, and there's nothing wrong with it at all.

    I actually use the Mail Breaker sometimes too for that matter. We forgot that one. I'd be willing to bet it has a higher critical than the Rapier.
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    Post by The Letter X Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:32 pm

    I think the Mail Breaker's lower AR holds it back, but it is still very close to the rapier in terms of critical damage IIRC.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:34 pm

    The only reason I ever use it is as a surprise secondary equip on heavy characters. It's super fast and does okay turtle damage. Nice to be able to pull out against someone trying to screw with your heavy weapon techniques for some quick cheese damage.
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    Post by The Letter X Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:43 pm

    Yeah, I think it's one of the best, if not the best, backup weapon for PvP.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:50 pm

    ^ There's nothing quite like killing an annoying foe with a little Mail Breaker poke either. It's such an unassuming little weapon.
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    Post by Sentiel Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:22 am

    Usually, when I see Rapier, normal one, or Mail Breaker (that's a mega rare weapon in PvP) I treat that as a big sign, saying "imma gonna bs the :dung: out of ya pal".

    So I'll take out Shotel, so you can't turtle with it, but I'm not aggresive with it, if you don't turtle I won't use it (got Black Flame in case someone thinks he can parry) and I watch my left side (the usuall bs way) and bs my opponent first.

    I know bs with Shotel is pathetic, but I don't do it to kill him, but to protect myself from his bs. I'll keep this up, until he hides the Rapier, or dies.

    I treat other rapiers the same way, but I'm not as cautious about bs as with these two.

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    Post by Halicarnassis Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:18 am

    For the additional weight the Estoc brings with it I always choose the rapier or Ricards instead. Most of my PVP builds are low endurance so eeking out the right weight is imperative for fast rolling.

    Saying that, I've been looking into armour defences and its astounding how many heavy and medium sets carry huge defences to slashing weapons! I've begun equipping the Leo and Hornets ring with thrust weapons only as pierce damage seems less defended against overall. The Lucerne is fast becoming my BFF; given its reach, damage and thrust ability!
    Unfortunately I can't post any stats till the new year guys sorry
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    Post by Back Lot Basher Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:23 am

    FinPeku wrote:I did some quick testing and here's some numbers:

    Stats 27 str 40 dex. NG Silver knights in anor londo. Hornet ring equipped.

    Backstab damage with +15 estoc: 899
    Backstab damage with +15 rapier: 980

    Whether that difference is significant enough to give up range and more versatile move set, is up to you.

    That seems close to the difference I was seeing (although I was using elemental paths, so the differences probably depended on enemy resistances). I'd be using this mostly for PvE situations, so I'm not worried about it being predictable or anything. I'm going to try one as a Chaos weapon and see how it does.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:44 pm

    Sentiel wrote:Usually, when I see Rapier, normal one, or Mail Breaker (that's a mega rare weapon in PvP) I treat that as a big sign, saying "imma gonna bs the What's the story on the hidden critical for the Estoc? 2324285107 out of ya pal".

    So I'll take out Shotel, so you can't turtle with it, but I'm not aggresive with it, if you don't turtle I won't use it (got Black Flame in case someone thinks he can parry) and I watch my left side (the usuall bs way) and bs my opponent first.

    I know bs with Shotel is pathetic, but I don't do it to kill him, but to protect myself from his bs. I'll keep this up, until he hides the Rapier, or dies.

    I treat other rapiers the same way, but I'm not as cautious about bs as with these two.

    I generally carry shotels in my inventory unequipped with all toons, just like bows. I'm a big advocate of the shotel. Rips turtles to pieces.

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