2H Bonus Modifier

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    ChizFreak
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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by ChizFreak on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:37 pm

    Spoiler:
    Emergence wrote:
    lordgodofhell wrote:Rynn at your maxed out int and high str level I would not be surprised if you did those numbers against a great magic barrier user.

    Also, as Wyrm mentioned here, Xach brought up a good point on my thread about Black Flame being split dmg which I am 99% sure it is fire/physical split.

    Chances are, dark magic is also split. If it follows the same pattern as black flame it should be majority magic damage with just enough physical to do high damage on magic resist enemies at your advanced str and int levels.

    Yeah just with some quick number scratching based off of Plastic's observations blocking Dark Orb, I got these numbers (without being able to calculate what his armor actually blocked as well, these numbers would be bare minimum strength of the Orb):

    AR of the Dark Orb was at least 239

    Of that 239, Physical Dmg would comprise 153, Magical Dmg 86. Nearly a 2 to 1 ratio. Adjusting for armor would increase the AR's across the board, but likely not distort them away from the ratio.

    That said, there still seems to be a "heft" component to the spells, knowing that with the Manus at least, there is Str based scaling. I am wondering if the variance people are encountering in gameplay may be due to the AR being calculated as a Ratio of INT to STR and applying a different scaling grade to each of those stats. Perhaps STR is weighted more, and INT reaches diminishing returns sooner. The actual make up of the AR may vary to reflect the stat allocation. Who knows? We need more testing.


    Only thing I'm realizing here is that From doesn't know to make accurate and solid calculators for their game's stats silly

    Like why the hell you do more damage when 2-handing non-STR-Scaling weapons.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by Major_kenny on Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:09 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Spoiler:
    Emergence wrote:
    lordgodofhell wrote:Rynn at your maxed out int and high str level I would not be surprised if you did those numbers against a great magic barrier user.

    Also, as Wyrm mentioned here, Xach brought up a good point on my thread about Black Flame being split dmg which I am 99% sure it is fire/physical split.

    Chances are, dark magic is also split. If it follows the same pattern as black flame it should be majority magic damage with just enough physical to do high damage on magic resist enemies at your advanced str and int levels.

    Yeah just with some quick number scratching based off of Plastic's observations blocking Dark Orb, I got these numbers (without being able to calculate what his armor actually blocked as well, these numbers would be bare minimum strength of the Orb):

    AR of the Dark Orb was at least 239

    Of that 239, Physical Dmg would comprise 153, Magical Dmg 86. Nearly a 2 to 1 ratio. Adjusting for armor would increase the AR's across the board, but likely not distort them away from the ratio.

    That said, there still seems to be a "heft" component to the spells, knowing that with the Manus at least, there is Str based scaling. I am wondering if the variance people are encountering in gameplay may be due to the AR being calculated as a Ratio of INT to STR and applying a different scaling grade to each of those stats. Perhaps STR is weighted more, and INT reaches diminishing returns sooner. The actual make up of the AR may vary to reflect the stat allocation. Who knows? We need more testing.


    Only thing I'm realizing here is that From doesn't know to make accurate and solid calculators for their game's stats silly

    Like why the hell you do more damage when 2-handing non-STR-Scaling weapons.

    That sounds pretty logical to me -.-!

    and they're asians, how can you say they suck at math? Look Skyward


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by ChizFreak on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:27 am

    Major_kenny wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Spoiler:
    Emergence wrote:
    lordgodofhell wrote:Rynn at your maxed out int and high str level I would not be surprised if you did those numbers against a great magic barrier user.

    Also, as Wyrm mentioned here, Xach brought up a good point on my thread about Black Flame being split dmg which I am 99% sure it is fire/physical split.

    Chances are, dark magic is also split. If it follows the same pattern as black flame it should be majority magic damage with just enough physical to do high damage on magic resist enemies at your advanced str and int levels.

    Yeah just with some quick number scratching based off of Plastic's observations blocking Dark Orb, I got these numbers (without being able to calculate what his armor actually blocked as well, these numbers would be bare minimum strength of the Orb):

    AR of the Dark Orb was at least 239

    Of that 239, Physical Dmg would comprise 153, Magical Dmg 86. Nearly a 2 to 1 ratio. Adjusting for armor would increase the AR's across the board, but likely not distort them away from the ratio.

    That said, there still seems to be a "heft" component to the spells, knowing that with the Manus at least, there is Str based scaling. I am wondering if the variance people are encountering in gameplay may be due to the AR being calculated as a Ratio of INT to STR and applying a different scaling grade to each of those stats. Perhaps STR is weighted more, and INT reaches diminishing returns sooner. The actual make up of the AR may vary to reflect the stat allocation. Who knows? We need more testing.


    Only thing I'm realizing here is that From doesn't know to make accurate and solid calculators for their game's stats silly

    Like why the hell you do more damage when 2-handing non-STR-Scaling weapons.

    That sounds pretty logical to me -.-!

    and they're asians, how can you say they suck at math?

    It's not logical, because we are talking about weapons that DON'T depend on your STR for damage (AKA no STR scaling). That means that even if you use it with all your STR while 2-handing, it shouldn't do more damage. And even so, it should at least show that damage increase in stats.

    Moonlight Greatsword, it's made of pure magic energy. It only scales with INT. It only does magic damage. It doesn't make any sense for it to cause more damage if you have more STR aka 2 handing it, yet it happens.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:32 am

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Major_kenny wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Spoiler:
    Emergence wrote:
    lordgodofhell wrote:Rynn at your maxed out int and high str level I would not be surprised if you did those numbers against a great magic barrier user.

    Also, as Wyrm mentioned here, Xach brought up a good point on my thread about Black Flame being split dmg which I am 99% sure it is fire/physical split.

    Chances are, dark magic is also split. If it follows the same pattern as black flame it should be majority magic damage with just enough physical to do high damage on magic resist enemies at your advanced str and int levels.

    Yeah just with some quick number scratching based off of Plastic's observations blocking Dark Orb, I got these numbers (without being able to calculate what his armor actually blocked as well, these numbers would be bare minimum strength of the Orb):

    AR of the Dark Orb was at least 239

    Of that 239, Physical Dmg would comprise 153, Magical Dmg 86. Nearly a 2 to 1 ratio. Adjusting for armor would increase the AR's across the board, but likely not distort them away from the ratio.

    That said, there still seems to be a "heft" component to the spells, knowing that with the Manus at least, there is Str based scaling. I am wondering if the variance people are encountering in gameplay may be due to the AR being calculated as a Ratio of INT to STR and applying a different scaling grade to each of those stats. Perhaps STR is weighted more, and INT reaches diminishing returns sooner. The actual make up of the AR may vary to reflect the stat allocation. Who knows? We need more testing.


    Only thing I'm realizing here is that From doesn't know to make accurate and solid calculators for their game's stats silly

    Like why the hell you do more damage when 2-handing non-STR-Scaling weapons.

    That sounds pretty logical to me -.-!

    and they're asians, how can you say they suck at math?

    It's not logical, because we are talking about weapons that DON'T depend on your STR for damage (AKA no STR scaling). That means that even if you use it with all your STR while 2-handing, it shouldn't do more damage. And even so, it should at least show that damage increase in stats.

    Moonlight Greatsword, it's made of pure magic energy. It only scales with INT. It only does magic damage. It doesn't make any sense for it to cause more damage if you have more STR aka 2 handing it, yet it happens.

    there is more force behind a swing with 2 hands vs 1 hand.. lol wut are you talking about.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by Ghadis_God on Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:44 am

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Spoiler:
    Emergence wrote:
    lordgodofhell wrote:Rynn at your maxed out int and high str level I would not be surprised if you did those numbers against a great magic barrier user.

    Also, as Wyrm mentioned here, Xach brought up a good point on my thread about Black Flame being split dmg which I am 99% sure it is fire/physical split.

    Chances are, dark magic is also split. If it follows the same pattern as black flame it should be majority magic damage with just enough physical to do high damage on magic resist enemies at your advanced str and int levels.

    Yeah just with some quick number scratching based off of Plastic's observations blocking Dark Orb, I got these numbers (without being able to calculate what his armor actually blocked as well, these numbers would be bare minimum strength of the Orb):

    AR of the Dark Orb was at least 239

    Of that 239, Physical Dmg would comprise 153, Magical Dmg 86. Nearly a 2 to 1 ratio. Adjusting for armor would increase the AR's across the board, but likely not distort them away from the ratio.

    That said, there still seems to be a "heft" component to the spells, knowing that with the Manus at least, there is Str based scaling. I am wondering if the variance people are encountering in gameplay may be due to the AR being calculated as a Ratio of INT to STR and applying a different scaling grade to each of those stats. Perhaps STR is weighted more, and INT reaches diminishing returns sooner. The actual make up of the AR may vary to reflect the stat allocation. Who knows? We need more testing.


    Only thing I'm realizing here is that From doesn't know to make accurate and solid calculators for their game's stats silly

    Like why the hell you do more damage when 2-handing non-STR-Scaling weapons.
    Every weapon has a hidden damage modifier for 2h attacks regardless of Str. From simply has those formulas working in the background and not displayed in stats, probably because they modify damage and not AR. Same with the cats; damage and Magic Adjust are two different things. For example, the BKGA suffered a 20% damage nerf even though its AR stayed the same.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by ChizFreak on Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:48 am

    Ghadis_God wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Spoiler:
    Emergence wrote:
    lordgodofhell wrote:Rynn at your maxed out int and high str level I would not be surprised if you did those numbers against a great magic barrier user.

    Also, as Wyrm mentioned here, Xach brought up a good point on my thread about Black Flame being split dmg which I am 99% sure it is fire/physical split.

    Chances are, dark magic is also split. If it follows the same pattern as black flame it should be majority magic damage with just enough physical to do high damage on magic resist enemies at your advanced str and int levels.

    Yeah just with some quick number scratching based off of Plastic's observations blocking Dark Orb, I got these numbers (without being able to calculate what his armor actually blocked as well, these numbers would be bare minimum strength of the Orb):

    AR of the Dark Orb was at least 239

    Of that 239, Physical Dmg would comprise 153, Magical Dmg 86. Nearly a 2 to 1 ratio. Adjusting for armor would increase the AR's across the board, but likely not distort them away from the ratio.

    That said, there still seems to be a "heft" component to the spells, knowing that with the Manus at least, there is Str based scaling. I am wondering if the variance people are encountering in gameplay may be due to the AR being calculated as a Ratio of INT to STR and applying a different scaling grade to each of those stats. Perhaps STR is weighted more, and INT reaches diminishing returns sooner. The actual make up of the AR may vary to reflect the stat allocation. Who knows? We need more testing.


    Only thing I'm realizing here is that From doesn't know to make accurate and solid calculators for their game's stats silly

    Like why the hell you do more damage when 2-handing non-STR-Scaling weapons.
    Every weapon has a hidden damage modifier for 2h attacks regardless of Str. From simply has those formulas working in the background and not displayed in stats, probably because they modify damage and not AR. Same with the cats; damage and Magic Adjust are two different things. For example, the BKGA suffered a 20% damage nerf even though its AR stayed the same.

    That's the problem, there shouldn't be any "hidden" modifiers. If they want to put them, fine, but at least show them in the stats.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by ChizFreak on Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:50 am

    Glutebrah wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Major_kenny wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Spoiler:
    Emergence wrote:
    lordgodofhell wrote:Rynn at your maxed out int and high str level I would not be surprised if you did those numbers against a great magic barrier user.

    Also, as Wyrm mentioned here, Xach brought up a good point on my thread about Black Flame being split dmg which I am 99% sure it is fire/physical split.

    Chances are, dark magic is also split. If it follows the same pattern as black flame it should be majority magic damage with just enough physical to do high damage on magic resist enemies at your advanced str and int levels.

    Yeah just with some quick number scratching based off of Plastic's observations blocking Dark Orb, I got these numbers (without being able to calculate what his armor actually blocked as well, these numbers would be bare minimum strength of the Orb):

    AR of the Dark Orb was at least 239

    Of that 239, Physical Dmg would comprise 153, Magical Dmg 86. Nearly a 2 to 1 ratio. Adjusting for armor would increase the AR's across the board, but likely not distort them away from the ratio.

    That said, there still seems to be a "heft" component to the spells, knowing that with the Manus at least, there is Str based scaling. I am wondering if the variance people are encountering in gameplay may be due to the AR being calculated as a Ratio of INT to STR and applying a different scaling grade to each of those stats. Perhaps STR is weighted more, and INT reaches diminishing returns sooner. The actual make up of the AR may vary to reflect the stat allocation. Who knows? We need more testing.


    Only thing I'm realizing here is that From doesn't know to make accurate and solid calculators for their game's stats silly

    Like why the hell you do more damage when 2-handing non-STR-Scaling weapons.

    That sounds pretty logical to me -.-!

    and they're asians, how can you say they suck at math?

    It's not logical, because we are talking about weapons that DON'T depend on your STR for damage (AKA no STR scaling). That means that even if you use it with all your STR while 2-handing, it shouldn't do more damage. And even so, it should at least show that damage increase in stats.

    Moonlight Greatsword, it's made of pure magic energy. It only scales with INT. It only does magic damage. It doesn't make any sense for it to cause more damage if you have more STR aka 2 handing it, yet it happens.

    there is more force behind a swing with 2 hands vs 1 hand.. lol wut are you talking about.

    It's pure energy. It doesn't matter the STR. It cuts because of it's magical nature, and the magic itself it carries. The power of the magic, depends on your INT. It's like some kind of lightsaber, even if I gently put it through your stomach, it will go through you, it's the same to do it fast and stronger.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by raecor14 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:20 am

    2 hands may let you conduct more power into the sword + its just a game play mechanic or why bother 2 handing it?


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by Major_kenny on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:17 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:

    I don't know what's so hard to understand. In real life, if you hold something with both hands it'll hit harder than with one. Do you want them to tell you too that attacking drains stamina and if it hits it will hurt your opponent?

    Next time ask From Software to add Captain obvious as a helper for you Well What is it

    edit - If dexterity weapons didnt do more damage 2 handed, tell me the advantage of being able to use them 2 handed please Shrug


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    2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:22 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Glutebrah wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Major_kenny wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Spoiler:
    Emergence wrote:
    lordgodofhell wrote:Rynn at your maxed out int and high str level I would not be surprised if you did those numbers against a great magic barrier user.

    Also, as Wyrm mentioned here, Xach brought up a good point on my thread about Black Flame being split dmg which I am 99% sure it is fire/physical split.

    Chances are, dark magic is also split. If it follows the same pattern as black flame it should be majority magic damage with just enough physical to do high damage on magic resist enemies at your advanced str and int levels.

    Yeah just with some quick number scratching based off of Plastic's observations blocking Dark Orb, I got these numbers (without being able to calculate what his armor actually blocked as well, these numbers would be bare minimum strength of the Orb):

    AR of the Dark Orb was at least 239

    Of that 239, Physical Dmg would comprise 153, Magical Dmg 86. Nearly a 2 to 1 ratio. Adjusting for armor would increase the AR's across the board, but likely not distort them away from the ratio.

    That said, there still seems to be a "heft" component to the spells, knowing that with the Manus at least, there is Str based scaling. I am wondering if the variance people are encountering in gameplay may be due to the AR being calculated as a Ratio of INT to STR and applying a different scaling grade to each of those stats. Perhaps STR is weighted more, and INT reaches diminishing returns sooner. The actual make up of the AR may vary to reflect the stat allocation. Who knows? We need more testing.


    Only thing I'm realizing here is that From doesn't know to make accurate and solid calculators for their game's stats silly

    Like why the hell you do more damage when 2-handing non-STR-Scaling weapons.

    That sounds pretty logical to me -.-!

    and they're asians, how can you say they suck at math?

    It's not logical, because we are talking about weapons that DON'T depend on your STR for damage (AKA no STR scaling). That means that even if you use it with all your STR while 2-handing, it shouldn't do more damage. And even so, it should at least show that damage increase in stats.

    Moonlight Greatsword, it's made of pure magic energy. It only scales with INT. It only does magic damage. It doesn't make any sense for it to cause more damage if you have more STR aka 2 handing it, yet it happens.

    there is more force behind a swing with 2 hands vs 1 hand.. lol wut are you talking about.

    It's pure energy. It doesn't matter the STR. It cuts because of it's magical nature, and the magic itself it carries. The power of the magic, depends on your INT. It's like some kind of lightsaber, even if I gently put it through your stomach, it will go through you, it's the same to do it fast and stronger.

    1 handed swing of the Moonlight Greatsword goes horizontal you are hitting just the abdominal region. when you 2 hand it you are hitting from their Head to their feet, a lot more contact is made, thus more damage is done.

    i win. happy


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by ublug on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:17 pm

    I mentioned this in another thread. 2H attacks also drain more of your stamina than 1H, so the dps (or combo damage before you run out of stamina) should be comparable.
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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by defacto on Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:36 pm

    ITS A GAMEPLAY MECHANIC!!!!

    WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF 2 HANDING WEAPONS IF 90% OF THEM DIDN'T DO MORE DAMAGE????

    DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    If you let realism get in the way of good game mechanics you end up with a horrible game.
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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:40 pm

    defacto wrote:ITS A GAMEPLAY MECHANIC!!!!

    WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF 2 HANDING WEAPONS IF 90% OF THEM DIDN'T DO MORE DAMAGE????

    DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    If you let realism get in the way of good game mechanics you end up with a horrible game.

    except my last point proved that if you factor in realism it still is logical 2 handing does more damage.

    a Vertical swing of a light saber that hits you from your head to your feet causes a bigger injury then a simple 1 handed horizontal slash across the abdominal.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by ChizFreak on Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:47 pm

    defacto wrote:ITS A GAMEPLAY MECHANIC!!!!

    WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF 2 HANDING WEAPONS IF 90% OF THEM DIDN'T DO MORE DAMAGE????

    DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    If you let realism get in the way of good game mechanics you end up with a horrible game.

    It's not about realism, it's about showing modifiers. No, it doesn't make sense me, because most people here except Glutebrah which presented a valid point, only say "it does more damage because when 2 handing it you do it stronger duh", and it doesn't make sense when you're talking about a sword made of pure-energy. It's *** pure energy, it's not steel, the power of thata pure energy it's decided by your INT, not your STR, so no matter how hard you swing it, if you don't have enough INT, the damage of the sword will be low. With that logic it doesn't make sense that when 2-handing it you get more damage, but as Glutebrah said, it could be that because it's another animation you hit more of the opponent's body, so it would make sense.

    I know it's game mechanic, stop acting like "oh my god, deal with it, you want to teach the developers", it's about, from a logic point, to me, it doesn't make sense, so, if it's not about logic or common sense, then just show in the stats than when 2 handing it you get more damage even if it doesn't scale with STR.

    Let me know when you have a sword made of pure magic energy IRL so we can talk about what's realistic. You don't know, and neither do I, so I make my guesses based on what I know about the sword, neither you or I, have the truth in this argument.

    EDIT: For some reason some a mod created a thread in my name, and posted a post of mine from another thread as the first post. I didn't create this thread.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:00 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:
    EDIT: For some reason some a mod created a thread in my name, and posted a post of mine from another thread as the first post. I didn't create this thread.

    yea he just split up the thread cuz this topic was kind of derailing the original thread about Dark magic.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by Acarnatia on Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:21 pm

    Chiz is right. Weapons that aren't affected by strength at all (such as the moonlight greatsword) are made of energy; the damage is purely magical, not physical. In fact, it CAN'T do physical damage, therefore the extra strength from two-handing it couldn't work. And while, yes, at a certain point gameplay mechanics have to override logic and realism, the same holds true in the reverse; if it's too biased for gameplay mechanics over realism then it's just another dumb, completely unrealistic fighting game where you're playing a punching health-tank. Many of the weapons in Dark Souls flat-out shouldn't be effective two-handed. For example, rapiers; two-handing a rapier actually defeats the entire purpose of rapiers in actual combat. You lose maneuverability, reach, you present a larger target based on how you have to stand-it just doesn't work. It's a akin to two-handing a dagger; (yes, I know you can do that in this game) while technically possible, it actually flat-out an ineffective use for the weapon. Having some weapons not be effective two-handed actually creates a balance between one-handed and two-handed weapons.
    And back to the non str scaling-cutting down with a laser is no different than cutting horizontally because it's not cutting per se. It's burning through something and burns through just as well regardless of which way you're swinging it. Some of the non str scaling weapons (such as the dragon weapons) just don't scale for balancing issues or such and it does make sense for them to have a two-handed bonus because they are actually physical objects being swung. Weapons like the MGS and whips have no reason to have a bonus for two-handing other than gameplay mechanics.
    Aside from that, I, too, hope that From shows such bonuses somewhere in their next project.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:32 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:Chiz is right. Weapons that aren't affected by strength at all (such as the moonlight greatsword) are made of energy; the damage is purely magical, not physical. In fact, it CAN'T do physical damage, therefore the extra strength from two-handing it couldn't work. And while, yes, at a certain point gameplay mechanics have to override logic and realism, the same holds true in the reverse; if it's too biased for gameplay mechanics over realism then it's just another dumb, completely unrealistic fighting game where you're playing a punching health-tank. Many of the weapons in Dark Souls flat-out shouldn't be effective two-handed. For example, rapiers; two-handing a rapier actually defeats the entire purpose of rapiers in actual combat. You lose maneuverability, reach, you present a larger target based on how you have to stand-it just doesn't work. It's a akin to two-handing a dagger; (yes, I know you can do that in this game) while technically possible, it actually flat-out an ineffective use for the weapon. Having some weapons not be effective two-handed actually creates a balance between one-handed and two-handed weapons.
    And back to the non str scaling-cutting down with a laser is no different than cutting horizontally because it's not cutting per se. It's burning through something and burns through just as well regardless of which way you're swinging it. Some of the non str scaling weapons (such as the dragon weapons) just don't scale for balancing issues or such and it does make sense for them to have a two-handed bonus because they are actually physical objects being swung. Weapons like the MGS and whips have no reason to have a bonus for two-handing other than gameplay mechanics.
    Aside from that, I, too, hope that From shows such bonuses somewhere in their next project.

    let me help explain happy

    1. Moon light Great Sword - Yes the sword is purely magical and will is not effected by strength at all i agree. how ever take the swings into consideration, when you 1 hand it you do a horizontal Swipe vs a 2 handed vertical swipe. the 2 handed vertical swipe makes more contact and slices a larger portion of their body thus causing more damage.

    ask your self what is going to hurt more if i cut you horizontally across your stomach, or if i slice you from your head all the way down your entire body to your feet. the answer is simple, it is a longer more devastating attack.

    2. Rapier - yes i agree with everything you said, but when are facing enemies with strong armor you might not be able to generate enough thrust with 1 arm to sufficiently pierce that armor. with 2 hands there is more force behind the thrust enabling a stronger pierce attack to pierce deeper into the armor causing more damage.

    3. Whips - let some one whip you with 1 hand vs 2 hands and tell me what one hurts more.

    the fact of the matter is any weapon that causes physical damage would get stronger the more force there is behind the swing/stab ect, especially when trying to inflict a strike against some one with good armor, 1 handed attacks just might not produce enough force to break the armor and cause a sufficient amount of damage.

    the only weapon that has a valid argument is the Moonlight sword because it will slice no matter how much force you put behind it, whether it swings at 100mph or 5 mph it will cut you the same. so the only "logic" i can apply is the one i did, the 2 handed swing cuts a large surface because of the animation.

    i truly don't get where the confusion comes from. This will be my last post in the topic because there is nothing left to say, unless some one can prove any one of my points wrong.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by Aznul on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:37 pm

    Have any of you considered that the pure energy weapon is affecting a physical body? I know you realize that it is a person, but even the magic damage is having a physical effect on your target. Perhaps swinging an energy blade with more force conducts more of that energy? Even a dull blade can cut if it is moving fast enough. It is possible that a 2 handed swing moves the weapon faster, even if there is more time between the attacks.

    Certainly, if you stab someone with something made of pure energy, the physical force you put into each strike would not make a significant difference. But, the weapons have an at least partly physical form, and even if hitting harder won't do more damage, moving faster might. Also, applying the same force to an object within a smaller time is already known to cause a greater reaction. Probably the magical nature of the moonlight greatsword nullifies the benefits of strength, but the increased speed of the weapon while swinging, as well as an increase in the surface area of the wielder's body in contact with the weapon (allowing for the conduction of greater magical energy into the weapon), can certainly justify increased effect on the opponent.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by GkMrBane on Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:05 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Glutebrah wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Major_kenny wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Spoiler:
    Emergence wrote:
    lordgodofhell wrote:Rynn at your maxed out int and high str level I would not be surprised if you did those numbers against a great magic barrier user.

    Also, as Wyrm mentioned here, Xach brought up a good point on my thread about Black Flame being split dmg which I am 99% sure it is fire/physical split.

    Chances are, dark magic is also split. If it follows the same pattern as black flame it should be majority magic damage with just enough physical to do high damage on magic resist enemies at your advanced str and int levels.

    Yeah just with some quick number scratching based off of Plastic's observations blocking Dark Orb, I got these numbers (without being able to calculate what his armor actually blocked as well, these numbers would be bare minimum strength of the Orb):

    AR of the Dark Orb was at least 239

    Of that 239, Physical Dmg would comprise 153, Magical Dmg 86. Nearly a 2 to 1 ratio. Adjusting for armor would increase the AR's across the board, but likely not distort them away from the ratio.

    That said, there still seems to be a "heft" component to the spells, knowing that with the Manus at least, there is Str based scaling. I am wondering if the variance people are encountering in gameplay may be due to the AR being calculated as a Ratio of INT to STR and applying a different scaling grade to each of those stats. Perhaps STR is weighted more, and INT reaches diminishing returns sooner. The actual make up of the AR may vary to reflect the stat allocation. Who knows? We need more testing.


    Only thing I'm realizing here is that From doesn't know to make accurate and solid calculators for their game's stats silly

    Like why the hell you do more damage when 2-handing non-STR-Scaling weapons.

    That sounds pretty logical to me -.-!

    and they're asians, how can you say they suck at math?

    It's not logical, because we are talking about weapons that DON'T depend on your STR for damage (AKA no STR scaling). That means that even if you use it with all your STR while 2-handing, it shouldn't do more damage. And even so, it should at least show that damage increase in stats.

    Moonlight Greatsword, it's made of pure magic energy. It only scales with INT. It only does magic damage. It doesn't make any sense for it to cause more damage if you have more STR aka 2 handing it, yet it happens.

    there is more force behind a swing with 2 hands vs 1 hand.. lol wut are you talking about.

    It's pure energy. It doesn't matter the STR. It cuts because of it's magical nature, and the magic itself it carries. The power of the magic, depends on your INT. It's like some kind of lightsaber, even if I gently put it through your stomach, it will go through you, it's the same to do it fast and stronger.

    Well that sounds like a new form of molestion. Im glad they didnt make slow gentle stabing apart of the game that would be creepy.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by TehInfamousAmos on Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:10 pm

    Acarnatia wrote: Many of the weapons in Dark Souls flat-out shouldn't be effective two-handed. For example, rapiers; two-handing a rapier actually defeats the entire purpose of rapiers in actual combat. You lose maneuverability, reach, you present a larger target based on how you have to stand-it just doesn't work.

    Okay... if you have this logic then you also shouldn't use a shield with a rapier - rapiers are used in a duelist fighting style it uses the guard to parry weapons etc and counters with a swift thrust by countering with your guard. A shield would be irrelevant as it weighs more and makes you stand in a different manner as otherwise if you're standing in the fencing stance of a rapier then the shield would be useles... Logic doesn't apply in this game.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by TehInfamousAmos on Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:16 pm

    Actually correction to myself... The only use of the shield would be to shield bash the people to stagger them but this would be at the cost of movement speed therefore is illogical.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by ChizFreak on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:46 am

    TehInfamousAmos wrote:
    Acarnatia wrote: Many of the weapons in Dark Souls flat-out shouldn't be effective two-handed. For example, rapiers; two-handing a rapier actually defeats the entire purpose of rapiers in actual combat. You lose maneuverability, reach, you present a larger target based on how you have to stand-it just doesn't work.

    Okay... if you have this logic then you also shouldn't use a shield with a rapier - rapiers are used in a duelist fighting style it uses the guard to parry weapons etc and counters with a swift thrust by countering with your guard. A shield would be irrelevant as it weighs more and makes you stand in a different manner as otherwise if you're standing in the fencing stance of a rapier then the shield would be useles... Logic doesn't apply in this game.

    off topic: it would be cool if you could parry with the rapier, only when you one-hand it in your right hand, and you don't have anything on the left one. It could make some nice duels in DkS ala "gentleman" style.


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by TehInfamousAmos on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:29 am

    I always thought it would be cool too Chiz - at least you could have some left handed duels with rapiers - they can parry and still have the thrusts happy


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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by Marino. on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:56 am

    Sadly (or rather luckily) we dont have Lightsabers yet so we cant really compare it to Reality anyway Shrug
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    Re: 2H Bonus Modifier

    Post by WandererReece on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:08 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:It's not logical, because we are talking about weapons that DON'T depend on your STR for damage (AKA no STR scaling). That means that even if you use it with all your STR while 2-handing, it shouldn't do more damage. And even so, it should at least show that damage increase in stats.

    Moonlight Greatsword, it's made of pure magic energy. It only scales with INT. It only does magic damage. It doesn't make any sense for it to cause more damage if you have more STR aka 2 handing it, yet it happens.

    Moonlight Sword does not exist. Therefore, the argument is illogical.


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