Ornstein possibly an illusion?

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    Do we really fight Ornstein?

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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by KingSeekerCow on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:10 am

    "Late Reply" "Zombie Awaken"

    Ornstein is real character. If he was an illusion, you cannot buy his armor nor Smough from Doomhall when he is at Firelink. He only sells the armor of the bosses that you "killed" excluding a few but those individuals are not considered bosses to Soft.

    You can buy the Artoias set/Gwyn/Gwyndelion Set from him, and at the same time you can buy Biggie/Smalls set too and make their weapons.

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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by homelessguy on Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:40 am

    LickMyManus wrote:Alright, when I first fought Ornstein and Smough, they were way tougher for me than when I first fought Artorias. Of course, when you fight them with the same equipment, Soul Level and so on, Artorias is a beast. That may just be the games progressive difficulty and not a plot point.

    But on to the plot relevance, well Ornstein may seem weak, but let's not forget his specialty is dragonslaying.

    Also let's look at the implications of both scenarios.

    If Ornstein is an illusion, then he was created by Gwyndolin. Why would Gwyndolin pick Ornstein in particular? Why not Artorias, or why not all Four Knights?

    If Ornstein is real, then he must either be going along with Gwyndolins plan and therefore is working with Frampt to preserve the Age of Fire, or he is also being fooled by Gwyndolin just like the Chosen Undead is.

    My theory is that Ornstein is real. For one, if that isn't the real Ornstein, then where the hell is he? He'd be the only one of the Four Knights unaccounted for that was an illusion. Two, Ornstein is very likely to cooperate with Frampt and Gwyndolin on their quest to perpetuate the Age of Fire, which is what his Lord, Lord Gwyn would have wanted of him. Lastly, if Ornstein is an illusion, than how did Gwyndolin get a hold of the Leo Ring?
    I disagree with this Ornstein is the lion the prideful captain he would not take orders from a snake (a failed dragon) and a coward like gywndolin I think he fled with flann and da chest but got captured by dark moons or something in a plot made by gywndolin just so he can make fake copy's of them to show all good in anor londo.

    Ornstein is the only one who not confirmed dead I think so if he made copy's of all 4 knights more people would notice it fake.

    as for his item and gear I think he in a cell somewhere watched by elite troops loyal to gywndolin or  power hungry flame god flann (who must be in dark souls 2 he just has to be in it) they  could just take ring spear and copy his soul (the witch of Iza almost copy the first flame what saying the dark sun cant copy a weaker soul of Ornstein
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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by xSomax on Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:02 pm

    homeless, that is some really out there conjecture... and copying a flame using a soul is different then just straight up copying a soul. and while i think you would generally be right about the snake thing, in this case i'd believe you would be wrong. ornstein, even if he did have such hubris, would still respect gwyns wishes and best interests, even if that meant working with a snake. also, hes the captain of the knights who would be guarding him(unless they are dorkmoons), and more powerful than them to boot, even at his age. that just doesn't make sense. all in all, i think that ornstein is in on it all, if only to re-kindle the flame and put his fallen king to rest, as any good knight would. while he may be the lion aspect, he IS a knight first and foremost.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by joey75421 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:52 am

    I think it is the real Ornstein and Smough since afterwards we get their souls.
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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:46 pm

    You get their soul that was granted from Gwyn.

    You get Ornstien's ring, why would a fake ornstien have the real ring?



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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Undiscovery on Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:29 pm

    I dunno, Goughs Giant friend has his Hawk ring, and a random corpse has Artorias Wolf Ring.

    Pretty sure he's real though, he leads the silver knights who stayed behind to protect the illusions, the armour states they are aware of the illusions of Gwynevere there is no mention or directory of Orns being an Illusion. He's probably leader of the Princess Guard. silly


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:53 am

    By the way who brought this thread from the dead?

    This ain't the catacombs people.



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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Undiscovery on Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:30 am

    Wilkinson3424 wrote:By the way who brought this thread from the dead?

    This ain't the catacombs people.

    To stop this thread you must equip a divine weapon or find and slay the necromancer responsible.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by morte on Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:05 pm

    I would say that Ornstien is real for one main reason: the knights aren't all that tough. Gough had the advantage of a small space and a large attack range for that space. Artorias was powered up by the abyss, thus making him harder to kill and letting him deal more damage. Cyrian isn't that hard to kill at all compared to O&S or Arty. On the scale of things, they're all about the same.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Undiscovery on Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:20 pm

    ^--troof.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Thxodore on Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:48 pm

    Lore-Wise the Knights are badasses. If they were as strong in-game as they were in the lore, they would be practically unbeatable.
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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by morte on Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:28 pm

    Thxodore wrote:Lore-Wise the Knights are badasses. If they were as strong in-game as they were in the lore, they would be practically unbeatable.
    They are as strong, or to be more exact, they used to be before the flames began to fade. They were empowered by Gwyn and by the souls that they were given from the First Flame Event. As a result, in the time when the flames fade, their power ebbs away as well, explaining their lack of strength.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:50 pm

    Artorias was NOT powered by the abyss.


    FromSoft said that the front cover of dark souls was supposed to be artorias entering the abyss, which is what they based his DLC armour off of.

    Look closely, he is using his weapon in his LEFT HAND.

    In the DLC boss fight his left arm is obviously crippled, and he is missing his shield, and he has no sense of strategy with the abyss corrupting him.

    So your fighting a man who has no common sense, who is using his weapon in his opposite hand, and is missing his shield, and probably his wolf ring as it was stolen by "a man in a long coat" (- Ciaran cut dialogue), Not to mention he is missing his companion. Oh and his armor is highly corroded along with his sword so their effectiveness has dropped severely.

    Ok if you thought Artorias was hard in the boss fight then.... Try fighting him while he was in his prime.




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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by morte on Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:15 pm

    Wilkinson3424 wrote:Artorias was NOT powered by the abyss.


    FromSoft said that the front cover of dark souls was supposed to be artorias entering the abyss, which is what they based his DLC armour off of.

    Look closely, he is using his weapon in his LEFT HAND.

    In the DLC boss fight his left arm is obviously crippled, and he is missing his shield, and he has no sense of strategy with the abyss corrupting him.

    So your fighting a man who has no common sense, who is using his weapon in his opposite hand, and is missing his shield, and probably his wolf ring as it was stolen by "a man in a long coat" (- Ciaran cut dialogue), Not to mention he is missing his companion. Oh and his armor is highly corroded along with his sword so their effectiveness has dropped severely.

    Ok if you thought Artorias was hard in the boss fight then.... Try fighting him while he was in his prime.


    His sword is in his right hand and his back in all the photos I can find of him, although I fully admit I may be missing some. While his left is crippled, that has no bearing on his attack strategy nor on the power he gets out of his right hand wield. The shield was gone, yes, but the abyss did power him. Everything that is influenced by the abyss and accepts that influence grows stronger at the cost of sanity, the bloat-heads became sorcerers instead of normal townsfolk, the dogs became stronger hunters, etc. The ring missing dialogue was cut from the game and is thus not canon info. His companion was missing, but we are comparing the skill of individual knights, not knights with their partners. What evidence do you have for his sword being corroded? Yeah it's a bit dirty, but that doesn't mean it is corroded. Moreover, any corrosion of his equipment can be considered canceled with the increase in power that the abyss would provide him, especially after using his abyss-charging ability.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Thxodore on Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:27 am

    He was fighting creatures of the Abyss- his sword, if not corroded, must at least be a little dulled, yea?
    And Fighting with your sword in your off-hand is quite a disadvantage. His left arm is crippled by protecting Sif, so he must be in pain, a large amount of it. Debilitating,yea?

    Look, I'm not making excuses here. But Artorias is:
    A man whose strength comes from expertise with a sword he's holding in the wrong hand. A weapon probably best used with TWO HANDS.
    His will gave him strength- he's mindless now.
    That super ring that ups his power? GONE.
    I will never be made to believe that with all of these factors considered, Artorias is as powerful as he should be.
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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Hue on Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:15 am


    What is the part holding the sword called? it looks like an oversized humanoid right arm, coated in armor.
    Unless there's proof that Artorias is left handed, he is not using the sword in his offhand.


    He has quite low poise, for his size+ring, which he may have lost, or traded for the covenant of artorias ring. (makes sense as his old ring symbolized a will of steel, and the abyss symbolizes succumbing to the temptation of power, supressing that will and pride).
    Most notably, he lacks his shield, and left hand, -which could also have been used to hold the sword- in what could be his last rational move, to protect his companion.
    But he somewhat makes up for it with an increase in power, and, his left arm being the most corroded probably means it is imbued with stronger dark magic, demonstrated when you circle him and have him throw bits of abyss at you.

    I also think the abyss completely took over him when he saw you, after killing the bloathead.
    The cut dialogue, lack of smoke emanating from him, and his apparent hesitation hints that he was about to say something before going apeshit, and deciding to throw what was on the far end of his sword at you instead.

    My best guess is that he switched to a more offensive style, sacrificed defence, and lost his mind, which could be his only real disadvantage despite the looks. His speed is increased, his attack power is increased, and he is still able to dodge.


    Last edited by Hue on Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Sneezer on Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:19 am

    The chosen undead may as well be a much less hardcore Kratos that can never die.
    Do not underestimate the strength of undying will and perseverance.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by morte on Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:48 pm

    Sneezer wrote:The chosen undead may as well be a much less hardcore Kratos that can never die.
    Do not underestimate the strength of undying will and perseverance.
    Less hardcore? He just doesn't have gods giving him unlimited strength. In a way, he's more hardcore since he still does it in spite of working exclusively on his own power, rather than some deal with an otherworldly being that boosts his strength and endurance.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Thxodore on Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:10 pm

    Very well thought out Hue. You've convinced me happy
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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by xSomax on Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:06 pm

    all i'd like to say is that his sword is by no means in disrepair. darkened yes, but the steel is still in-tact and still shines in places not corrupted. he may be using abyss as a substitute for repair powder or something for all we know. a knight, even an insane one, would not allow their sword into disrepair. a sword is tantamount to ones life, and no matter how insane one gets the instinct to live is ever stronger. perhaps even more-so with the loss of rational thought.

    i guess what i mean is that even when he did go insane, he would have kept his sword in proper repair, if even out of habit. he was a great knight, that kind of thing isn't easy to forget even if one goes insane. the body remembers what the mind cannot.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Hart on Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:15 am

    OK, I've followed the recent posts in this thread but I didn't go through the posts made before it was (semi-)revived, so I may have missed some things.

    I thought a decent way to test this theory would be to try killing Gwyndolin BEFORE the S&O fight (talking the OP topic, not the Artorias discussion. *** knows how to test that).

    Anyway, right now I have a character with Darkmoon Seance Ring ready to teleport off to Anor Londo so I thought if it was worth it I could record my journey from here to try and settle the issue. But first a couple questions:

    -Is it even possible to fight Gwyndolin before you have the Lord Vessel. Honestly I've never tried it so I have no clue.

    -I have no idea if anyones ever done/attempted this; if it worked it could in theory be a work around to skip the S&O fight, so it seems unlikely that if it WAS possible, we wouldn't know about it. That said unless theres conclusive proof theres no harm trying right?

    -Would this prove it one way or another? Assuming it WAS possible to fight Gwyndolin before hand. It could be in the games coding that you couldn't, seeing as it would (should) make Gwynevere disappear, and shes the person who give you the LV.
    Since its Gwyndolin who is responsible for the illusions in AL, killing him should make some sort of impact on the S&O fight if Orni really is an illusion right?

    Anyway, the characters ready to go, and recording gear just needs to be plugged in.

    Gimme your feedback on whether its worth testing out or whether I'm just wasting my time reinventing the wheel.
    Links would also be appreciated if this has been tested before.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Hue on Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:55 am

    Hart wrote:It could be in the games coding that you couldn't, seeing as it would (should) make Gwynevere disappear, and shes the person who give you the LV.
    Wrong.
    Actually, you have to kill Gwynevere to get dark Anor Londo, and if you have killed Gwyndolin before, the only difference is (quite obviously) that he doesn't threaten you from outside the room as the sun goes away


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Hart on Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:38 am

    Hue wrote:
    Hart wrote:It could be in the games coding that you couldn't, seeing as it would (should) make Gwynevere disappear, and shes the person who give you the LV.
    Wrong.
    Actually, you have to kill Gwynevere to get dark Anor Londo, and if you have killed Gwyndolin before, the only difference is (quite obviously) that he doesn't threaten you from outside the room as the sun goes away
    Well then--and please point me in the right direction, if I'm bringing up something that has been explained before--how do we know that Gwyndolin is responsible for the illusions in Anor Londo (this is, AFAIK the general consensus of their presence)?
    If killing him doesn't dispell the illusion of Gwynevere, then what is responsible for the presence of illusions in AL?


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Hue on Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:33 am

    Hart wrote:
    Hue wrote:
    Hart wrote:It could be in the games coding that you couldn't, seeing as it would (should) make Gwynevere disappear, and shes the person who give you the LV.
    Wrong.
    Actually, you have to kill Gwynevere to get dark Anor Londo, and if you have killed Gwyndolin before, the only difference is (quite obviously) that he doesn't threaten you from outside the room as the sun goes away
    Well then--and please point me in the right direction, if I'm bringing up something that has been explained before--how do we know that Gwyndolin is responsible for the illusions in Anor Londo (this is, AFAIK the general consensus of their presence)?
    If killing him doesn't dispell the illusion of Gwynevere, then what is responsible for the presence of illusions in AL?
    I asked myself the same question;
    and i have no idea.

    It doesn't make much sense indeed


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Thxodore on Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:13 pm

    I mean isn't it possible that Gwyndolin is such a strong magician, illusions may stay there after his death? Gwynevere may have 'pre-recorded' responses to the Chosen Undead, like a recording of sorts, to keep the illusion there, perhaps? He may have just poured to much of his energy into the Gwynevere illusion compared to the other illusions, thats why she stays there?

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