Ornstein possibly an illusion?

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    Do we really fight Ornstein?

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    FungalPsychosis
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    Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by FungalPsychosis on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:29 pm

    I've been thinking about this for a while and it doesn't really make sense to me. Supposedly, Ornstein is the captain of the four knights of Gwyn. This confuses me though because he isn't even that strong. Sure, O&S is a difficult boss fight for newcomers, but this is because they're are dirty gankers. All the other knights of Gwyn seem more difficult than Ornstein if he was to fight you 1 on 1 (Excluding Ciaran, she is an assassin after all.)

    The main point I'm getting at is the following. Does anyone think the Ornstein we fight is an illusion? Please share your thoughts.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by lalliman on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:55 pm

    If that's the case, then how come he doesn't disappear when you hit him, like Gwynevere does?
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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Skarectum on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:34 pm

    lalliman wrote:If that's the case, then how come he doesn't disappear when you hit him, like Gwynevere does?

    Different kinds of 'illusion'; the Royal Sentinels disappear if you kill Gwynevere, and you can hit them plenty. You can't find out if Ornstein disappears, as you have to kill him to get to Gwynevere. Personally, I think he's for real.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:44 pm

    Your only argument is that he's too easy, so he must be an illusion? No offense, but I don't think that's very convincing...

    Gough was ridiculously easy to kill, especially for a giant. Ciaran, I didn't kill--I didn't know you were supposed to kill her while she's mourning to get her armor! But when I saw my friend engage her, he almost got killed. For an NPC, not even a boss, she put up a fight. Artorias is arguably stronger than Orny (let's assume Orny isn't in top shape when you fight him along with Smough!), but who says you need to be the strongest to be the leader? There's more to leadership than being the strongest--being the best tactician is important, for one. Like: stacking the odds in your favor by double-teaming the would-be Chosen Undead--sounds like something a leader would do, to me!

    It could be an interesting theory, but you need to back it up with more in-game evidence. Try to find some item descriptions, or environmental clues, that would hint that the Ornstein we fight is an illusion.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Marino. on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:04 am

    BLA1NE wrote:
    Gough was ridiculously easy to kill

    BLA1NE wrote:
    Gough easy to kill

    BLA1NE wrote:
    Gough kill

    Why would you do that ? sad

    On Topic :

    The why do we get his Soul when we defeat him ? And his Ring ?
    Nah i he's real
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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by BLA1NE on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:09 am

    ^I know... broke my heart! Greed got the better of me, I wanted his armor. I felt bad about it afterwards--didn't even need it! Ciaran, on the other hand... I'd have interrupted her grieving, if I'd known it was my only window of opportunity. Damn, there goes my greed again.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Marino. on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:18 am

    You just sped things up for Ciaran, we find her at his Grave anyway .

    You actually do her a favor by having her getting killed in a Fight so she gets reunited with Artorias happy
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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:05 am

    Or he could be "easy" for gameplay reasons.
    Arty is also now bolstered by the abyss so his current power isnt a true measure.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Icegodzilla on Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:51 am

    I'm gonna say he is real, but i don't know of anything that proves it


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Acarnatia on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:41 pm

    I already made this thread (though I offered a lot more evidence than was presented here) :/


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Skarectum on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:57 pm

    You've got to remember, you fight Ornstein hundreds of years after you fight Artorias and Ciaran! He could just be suffering from old age, in which case, damn, he's spry for a pensioner.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by sinspaw on Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:24 pm

    Artorias is the strongest, and I think that's pretty much that. Ciaran is a decent assassin, but you can catch her off guard and she doesn't have any 'special' move sets that do crazy amounts of damage. It's just like fighting another player if you will. Gough is a giant with a crapload of health but... not really difficult. I would put Ornstein ahead of these last two, as he has a pretty serious moveset. Specially when his moves are unknown to you in the first couple of times you fight him. I mean... who here didn't get impaled by Ornstein when they first entered the room?

    That and as someone else already mentioned... Ornstein couldn't be tougher than Artorias even if he is lore-wise because you need to fight Orn before you can fight Artorias.

    I really don't think his relative difficulty has anything to do with being an illusion or not. And also, if he was an illusion, then Smough has to be too. They behave similarly in the physical world, so it would be pretty weird for only one of them to be an illusion.

    Bear in mind, I have no idea if they are an illusion or not. But I do think the argument by the OP has no bearing in it.
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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:27 pm

    I think that one could argue that Artorias was the captain of the 4 knights until he died or Ornstein took the opportunity to take over when he left… Hence the reasoning the other 2 knights left? Artorias Armor is just a modified Silver Knight Set (look at the chest piece), leading me to believe he was the leader of the Silver Knights. With Artorias dead/not in Anor Londo the Silver Knights needed a leader and Ornstein was the only knight left… Even Ornsteins Armor gives room for doubt when it says that “Ornstein is believed to be the captain of the Four Knights”. Otherwise why would they even add the word “believed” in there.

    On the other end of that… Ornsteins Armor is Gold, when we think of worth.. Silver is under Gold.. Now Orn could have changed the color of his Armor sure, but it could be that he truly is the Captain. In addition to this, you don’t have to be the strongest to be the leader. Artorias seems like the “I take orders no matter what!” type so I think it’s also believable that he was Ornstein’s subordinate. Think about the animals that represent each Knight as well. Ornstein being the Lion would also show him as leader , while wolf could be a hint about Artorias. Wolves normal travel in packs and hunt that way, however; the phrase “lone wolf” fits better in this sense (yes I know Sif is with him but I’m talking about people). That could be why he was in Oolicile working “alone” until he failed and the other knights come to later.

    As to the OPer original question… Yes I believe that is the real Ornstein we fight. I think the better question would be, does he know the Princess he is protecting is a fake (which I’m sure he does). If he doesn’t though, why the hell not? If he does know what drives him to protect it still?


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Onion Knight on Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:45 pm

    He drops his ring and soul, I mean in souls games, if someone drops their soul it usually means they were there.. Also pay very close attention to the opening cutscene to the boss fight. You'll notice the room is dark. I believe they are both fully aware about what they were doing. He also captains the Silver Knights does he not? They also aren't illusions (they remain in dark Anor Londo.) Whether they were defending the illusion or the city itself is up for debate.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Avenger649 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:08 pm

    I honestly don't think that he is an illusion as he does drop the leo ring and can absorb smoughs soul so he obviously has some physical form.
    However, you can buy his armor so there is either a replica set or you may have never killed the real ornstein.

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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by RedderAI on Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:31 pm

    Avenger649 wrote:I honestly don't think that he is an illusion as he does drop the leo ring and can absorb smoughs soul so he obviously has some physical form.
    However, you can buy his armor so there is either a replica set or you may have never killed the real ornstein.

    Now it makes sooo much more sense that you could only get one of their souls per playthrough! Haha, that's so simple!! Thanks lol
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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Everynevers on Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:00 pm

    I don't think he's an illusion. That he is easier than other bosses isn't a very convincing reason.

    BLA1NE wrote:Gough was ridiculously easy to kill, especially for a giant.

    I have only faced him on NG+++ and I can say he was one tough hombre when it came to a straight up melee fight. I had to cheese him with spells and dropping down the ladder after failing at defending against his flailing drunken monkey style so many times I can't say.

    And, yeah... I can only bring myself to kill him once per character. This is the case for several of the NPCs like Solaire and the Giant Blacksmith.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Emergence on Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:46 pm

    Judging by the Japanese PSN Dynamic theme, Ornstein thinks Gwynevere is real. He walks into her chamber and kneels before her in prayer. Whether that is cannon or not, I don't know but I suspect it is.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by BeeSeaEss on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:47 pm

    wait. maybe Ornstein is an illusion, but doesn't know, and Gwyndolin is lying to him through gwynevere.
    you just entered. . . the twilight zone!


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Lord of Ash on Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:07 am

    You can buy gwyns


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Derpwraith on Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:50 am

    Emergence wrote:Judging by the Japanese PSN Dynamic theme, Ornstein thinks Gwynevere is real. He walks into her chamber and kneels before her in prayer. Whether that is cannon or not, I don't know but I suspect it is.
    There should have been one with Gwyn, struggling to keep the flame lit.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by samster628 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:19 am

    Just a heads up in the poll question do we really fight ornstien its actually 1 up to the yes not the no. Some complete idiot (me) clicked the wrong button cos i thought it said is he an illusion.
    How to check? Go to catacoumbs and get darkmoon ring then kill Gdolen before O and S. Simples. I suspect if you do this you will find the lordvessel in the chest that is generally empty. 2 mysteries with one stone. Joy


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Icegodzilla on Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:36 pm

    really never tried that myself


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by Skarectum on Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:23 pm

    samster628 wrote:Just a heads up in the poll question do we really fight ornstien its actually 1 up to the yes not the no. Some complete idiot (me) clicked the wrong button cos i thought it said is he an illusion.
    How to check? Go to catacoumbs and get darkmoon ring then kill Gdolen before O and S. Simples. I suspect if you do this you will find the lordvessel in the chest that is generally empty. 2 mysteries with one stone. Joy

    I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think Gwynevere stays regardless of whether or not Gwyndolin's alive. Good idea though.


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    Re: Ornstein possibly an illusion?

    Post by samster628 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:08 pm

    If you did what i said and The guenevere illusion still remined then that would still solve a mystery of the arguments weather Gwyndolen is an illusion of Gdolen or not.


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