Negative Effect of Humanity

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    Aznul
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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by Aznul on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:47 pm

    It is quite possible that 99 is the upper limit of what is safe for the chosen undead to carry. Maybe it is limited there because these other effects would become possible when going beyond it. It would certainly be understandable for each character/creature to have a different limit of what they can safely hold. Just like most people can react differently to the same medications.


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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by ChizFreak on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:49 pm

    Rarayn wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    PlasticandRage wrote:Well the lore about the Firekeeper in AL for one thing. Didn't she get disfigured by having too much? Or being too close to too much? Or some such thing?

    That's just speculation. The description doesn't say it happened because of she having too much humanity.
    It's not speculation. It says so in the item description of her Fire Keeper Soul:
    Soul of the Darkmoon Knightess,
    Fire Keeper of Anor Londo.


    A Fire Keeper's soul is a draw for humanity,
    and held within their bosoms, below just a
    thin layer of skin, are swarms of humanity
    that writhe and squirm. Her brass armor
    serves to disguise this ghastly form.


    I don't know if my English comprehension is incorrect or something, but there isn't any part there that states that because of having TOO MUCH humanity, she has that form, maybe she had it before. Maybe she have always been like that, and became a Firekeeper at the same time she became a Darkmoon after.

    From what I understand, it only states that she has a strange form, and that below that form there is a lot of humanity moving all the time. As I said, in no place is stated that because of having TOO MUCH humanity (not even because having some humanity) she acquired that form, and there is no way we can know when she acquired that form and when she acquired a lot of humanity.


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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by Hurtlocker14 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:55 pm

    Well I did graduate college myself so I have a basic understanding on the King's English. So this is what I gathered. When I read the line about the humanity writhe and squrim under her skin. The image in my mind gives me a sense of pain and discomfort. It seems that she has to much humanity and it runs to rampant in her body. So speculation to me is having to much humanity is a bad thing because its hard to control
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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by BLA1NE on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:26 am

    PlasticandRage wrote:Your general defenses scale with it also, and I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure they continue to all the way to 99.
    That's right. The amount of liquid humanity you have adds the defense and resistances your character would get from raising your SL by a corresponding amount. That's also why the defense bonus you get from humanity is subject to diminishing returns. A SL1 character with 99 liquid humanity will get a huge bonus compared to a SL100 character with 99 humanity.

    Or, put it another way:
    SL1, 0 humanity: http://mmdks.com/8bx
    SL1, 99 humanity: http://mmdks.com/bm3
    SL100, 0 humanity: http://mmdks.com/bm1
    SL100, 99 humanity: http://mmdks.com/bm5

    ^Compare SL1, 99 humanity with SL100, 0 humanity, and the difference between 0 and 99 humanity for both SLs, and you'll understand everything.


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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by PlasticandRage on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:28 am

    Really to argue the point that the description doesn't imply a danger in possessing massive amounts of humanity is to argue against statement's ability to imply anything. Ever. It says it pretty plainly. Her soul is a draw for humanity. Implying that all the humanity that she has was drawn to her because of her soul. Then it says all this humanity resides under her skin. Implying that she's so full of humanity that she's essentially bursting with it. Then it says the humanity that's under her skin moves, followed by saying that her armor hides this grotesque form. The wording implies that the humanity under her skin creates a grotesque form. It doesn't say, oh and she has a grotesque form. It says the humanity moves under her skin and her armor hides this grotesque form. If that's not direct enough, then yes, I'd say you're misunderstanding due to a failure in English comprehension.


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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by Nybbles on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:51 pm

    the only thing in danger of having too much humanity is my controller from being bitten and tossed out a window if i lose allot of it.

    i don't think Firekeepers are meant to use humanity in the same way that the chosen undead does. instead of consuming it for themselves, they seem to use it to maintain the fires instead. why the Darkmoon Knightess is the only one that is mentioned as being deformed from the humanity is beyond me. i guess Manus and the bloat headed mobs in the DLC have also been mutated as a result of their humanity going wild. perhaps the Knightess had a run in with the Abyss or even Manus?

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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by Hurtlocker14 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:18 pm

    Thats the point that im also trying to express because the DLC there are all types of references that state humanity is bad
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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by BLA1NE on Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:55 pm

    I don't particularly recall anything in the DLC giving me the impression that too much humanity is a bad thing. I seem to remember references to the greed for humanity being what was bad...


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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by PlasticandRage on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:00 pm

    BLA1NE wrote:I don't particularly recall anything in the DLC giving me the impression that too much humanity is a bad thing. I seem to remember references to the greed for humanity being what was bad...

    I'm not even sure it alludes to greed for humanity directly. The impression I got was that Manus became so obsessed in the hunt for his lost pendant the his humanity went out of control, mutating into something that continued to grow and infect others that came into contact with it. I'm not sure I'd call that danger caused by greed for humanity, maybe just danger caused by greed in general and given form through humanity.


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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by Seignar on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:33 pm

    It was never stated why Manus' humanity went wild; another part of Dark Souls lore left to speculation. The description does state that the Darkmoon Knightress got a grotesque form because she had too much humanity, but most likely a ton more than 99 fragments of the Lord's Soul.

    Manus, having possessed an innumerable amount of humanity, went from a pygmy a tiny, insignificant being to a hulking monster with immeasurable power. He had so much humanity that it literally escaped his body and created the Abyss (I believe the Abyss is the creation of humanity), infested Oolacile, possessed Artorias, got manifested and even then Manus STILL had more humanity to offer you than 1 Firekeeper's Soul.

    Conclusion: Humanity is bad for you...in excess.


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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by aprilmanha on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:46 pm

    Hurtlocker14 wrote:One thing that I haven't figured out about Dark Souls is humanity. When you are gathering information about humanity you learn that having to much is a bad thing. So how come you are able to stockpile 99 of it without suffering any type of ill effects

    The negative effect is that you have to stand around for like 20 minutes eating the things, and then can lose it all in one hit!

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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by Hurtlocker14 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:15 pm

    Ok but that still leads me to the point why is there no ill effect for having 99 humanity. Thank you Seignar for finally clearing up a point that having an excess of humanity can actually be bad for you

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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by Nybbles on Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:38 pm

    at the end of the game we can choose to keep our Humanity and bring on the darkness of the abyss or sacrifice ourselves so the world can remain light. this is the fate of the chosen undead.

    i like to think that in Dark Souls, Humanity is the Dark Soul and the Pygmy wasn't a god or a demon. the Pygmy was just an undead that found a path to mortality through Humanity. "with fire came disparity; light and dark, life and death." to be mortal means that eventually you must die, the Pygmy becomes the antithesis to the gods who gave life, for his fate is to bring death to the world. Humanity is the darkness and must eventually lead to the destruction of the world, thus completing the cycle because with creation comes destruction.

    i don't think that having Humanity in itself is either good or bad or that it will lead to some horrible mutation or whatever. i think that having contact with the abyss causes the Humanity you do have to go "wild". when you look into the darkness and so on.

    the Knightess may have peered into the darkness of the abyss at some point and her Humanity has gone wild, disfiguring her as a result. perhaps she becomes a Fire Keeper to sacrifice her Humanity to the fire and maintain the light instead of becoming a monster of the abyss like Manus. similar to our fate, we have seen the abyss and we can choose to sacrifice our Humanity so we do not become like Manus and prevent the world from being swallowed by the abyss (for a time anyway).

    Manus i think was meant to represent the abyss and what it does to Humanity, whether or not he is or was the pygmy is speculation. personally, i don't think he was "the" pygmy. Manus i believe was instead the chosen undead of the time that was tricked into choosing the abyss by a dark serpent (Kaethe?) and we would share his fate should we choose the dark ending.

    Pendants in Dark Souls are linked to fond memories, perhaps Manus is so desperately seeking his pendant because he has forgotten what it was like to be human? a sign that he regrets his choice? Alvina, Sif and the Forest Hunters are dedicated to protecting the chosen undead from the same fate suffered by Manus and Artorias. this is one possible reason why a pendant is given as a reward, to remember why they continue to soldier on. Rhea also has a pendant, her mission is to kindle bonfires and the pendant is there for her to remember why this is so important for the Way of the White.

    so in the end, being the chosen undead and trying to amass all that Humanity to prevent becoming hollow is probably not a good thing at all. probably why the Way of White locks up any one with the dark sign, in some vain attempt at preventing the possibility of the chosen undead from siding with the abyss. so that means the Crestfallen is actually the real hero of the game after all, forget this chosen undead non-sense and just enjoy being hollow.

    damn i love this game.
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    Re: Negative Effect of Humanity

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:47 pm

    I’m late to the party here, but I love discussion about Humanity/The Dark Soul etc.. . This is just my 2 cents and it makes the most sense to me.

    It’s my honest opinion that all of the people we meet in game are in some form “human”. Let me explain. In the intro it says “from the Dark they came”, when we hear this we see what looks like hollow-like people standing up. Gwyn, Nito, the Witch, Pygmy, etc are included into this “they”. It’s also key to note when it says dark it puts it in caps in the intro and reads “the Dark”. If we read the Artorias Armor description it helps clear up what this “Dark” is…

    Helm of Artorias: Helm of Artorias the Abysswalker, one of Gwyn’s four knights. The death of the helm’s owner can be surmised from the corrosive Dark of the Abyss, and the musty azure-blue tassel, once a symbol of pride and glory.

    The corrosive DARK of the abyss is the liquid-ooze like substance that’s all over Oolicile and we can see large masses of it just before we fight the chained prisoner… just take a look at the steps where the Dark Sorcerers were and look to the left and right of it. HUGE puddles of black liquid… Now another hint as to what this is… the Primordial Serpents… Primeval man… These 2 words are similar yet the word Primordial seems to insinuate something deeper…

    Dark ooze=Primordial soup

    Primordial Serpents are in fact a part of the Darkness (the lack of light not the ooze) and were the first to come out of the soup. The Gold Serpent Ring says they are “imperfect dragons” and are associated with greed, and when you attack Ciran what she says is extremely interesting.. “Humans… Always taking what you please” that sounds like she is associating humans with greed as well… On a side note, when you stack humanity.. your item drop rate (greed) increases.

    Gwyn and others (primeval man) came from the same soup as well as humans meaning they are in some way humans that have been enhanced by the power of the souls they received from the First Flame. Going back to what Ciran says…. She calls us “humans” that doesn’t mean she isn’t herself one, but it does make sense that if she does have more “soul power” from hanging out with Gwyn and company that she would believe herself transcended from the term human, and would use it as a cut down even..

    In addition, the races are all in a way related including the Serpents. Hence why they have human-like faces.

    With that being said I still stand behind what I said about there being 2 clans of serpents, Kaathe and Frampt, also; It would seem that the Age of Dark/Man would be befitting this theory as well. If the serpents are actually “primordial man" in a sense, then they are promoting the spread of their influence and the continuation of their age..(kind of an obvious statement there). It could go deeper than that with what I was saying before, as in they consume souls to survive therefore, the plots always end up with them getting a meal (similar to the Elder God in Legacy of Kain). Each clan has its own idea about how to obtain and control these souls for their consumption and that is where they disagree.

    In addition to this, I believe this has something to do with the way everyone looks when they go Hollow (including the player character). As in, when in hollow form there are patches of skin missing which expose what looks grey, web-like/wormish insides. These insides remind me of what the Fire Keepers Soul looks like. Fire Keepers souls are just a mass of humanity. With that being said if we compare the 2 (Hollows insides and Fire Keepers Soul) and go along thinking the Primordial Ooze theory from above we can say that human beings are just masses of Darkness/Humanity. I say Darkness/Humanity because it is of the belief of many in the Dark Souls community that the Dark Soul was split and that is what the item humanity is.

    If this were the case (humans bodies are composed of masses of humanity) then why do we have to use a consumable humanity to regain our human form? Maybe the grey bits we see while we are hollow are inactive humanity or something that has mutated to form a … solid container for the “Darkness Ooze” that causes one to regain their original form. This would also explain why a Estus Flask keeps you alive. Aestus Estus means heat in latin, therefore; a estus flask contains the heat of a bonfire, which would in turn heat up the hardened “ooze”/humanity inside a person’s body to heal them…


    In the end we see what happens to Manus when he holds to much Humanity (the Dark Soul) and it goes crazy. The Dark of the Abyss (Primordial Soup) is spread across the land and mutates anything it comes into contact with. However, if the Dark/Humanity is under control it can be used to empower the holder.


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