Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

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    aprilmanha
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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by aprilmanha on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:42 pm

    I still cannot see any reason why an easy mode, if done right, causes the games quality to drop if the people who don't want it, never have to play it?

    "It changes the journey" -- Not for you it doesn't

    "It would allow lesser players into the game" -- I don't see this as a problem?

    "It takes away from the reputation of the game" -- Less of a negative rep is a good thing surely?

    "It would make the game boring" -- So why did you pick easy mode when you wanted to play hard mode?

    I admit I must be missing some information or reason for my point of view but no one has yet been able to explain to me why allowing players to join at a lower entry point and then train them up to the higher levels is a bad thing?

    Developers want their game to be played, by more people the better. If From can make a game harder then Dark Souls and yet include a mode to let new people join in as well, is that not a Win/Win for all?
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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Emergence on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:53 pm

    It does change the journey for the individual playing. The backbone of this game is built upon learning from one's mistakes and refining one's approach as a result until mastery is achieved. Reducing that difficulty level makes the game closer to a standard hack and slash. That is not From Soft's and specifically Miyazaki's vision. Perhaps Picasso would have achieved more renown if he choose to paint in a way that emulated the broad appeal. He was quite capable of intense realism with his work but he choose his vision. Asking for a compromise of Miyazaki would be akin to asking Picasso to do the same. It is time this man gets the credit for his vision. No one presumes to tell Kojima to remove stealth from Metal Gear Solid, so why do we do the same to Miyazaki?


    Last edited by Emergence on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:58 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Typo bugged me.)


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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Marino. on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:54 pm

    Dont forget that From is a Japanese game Developer Team .
    They have a different mindset than those filthy Western Developers that only care about sales .

    They make their own Game exactly how they want it or rather how the Head Dev wants it (its almost like a dictatorship silly )

    And honestly i like it that way happy

    Edit: Darn you Emergence bounce
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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Onion Knight on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:58 pm

    The game already has an inbuilt difficulty for new players.
    Too hard?
    -Level up.
    -Upgrade your equipment.
    -Choose pyromancer(DS) or royal (DeS) as starting class.
    -Use magic or pyromancies.
    -Summon NPC's or other players.

    It's not the reputation that's ruined but the whole point of the game itself. Souls games are built around risk and reward, if there's no fear of dying or failure especially during boss fights (building up that adrenaline,) where's the risk? and so the reward is dampened, that feeling you get when you finally kill a boss and make progress? Now gone, for new players.

    Who says more players=better? With that logic Call Of Duty is the best game series ever created by humanity. Or that Dragon Age 2 is better than Origins.

    It would make the game boring, knowing that you could just run through the game in about a day, because progress is so easy and failure is never going to happen, you wouldn't get more people playing, those more casual gamers you seek would sell the game on after completion and move onto the next 'hyped' title.


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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Marino. on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:02 pm

    I would rather have a Game for a targeted group of People, and not a jack of all trades leaving a generic taste and basicly satisfy no one :| .




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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by aprilmanha on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:06 pm

    Emergence wrote:It does change the journey for the individual playing. The backbone of this game is built upon learning from one's mistakes and refining one's approach as a result until mastery is achieved. Reducing that difficulty level makes them game closer to a standard hack and slash. That is not From Soft's and specifically Miyazaki's vision. Perhaps Picasso would have achieved more renown if he choose to paint in a way that emulated the broad appeal. He was quite capable of intense realism with his work but he choose his vision. Asking for a compromise of Miyazaki would be akin to asking Picasso to do the same. It is time this man gets the credit for his vision. No one presumes to tell Kojima to remove stealth from Metal Gear Solid, so why do we do the same to Miyazaki?

    Except its nothing like that. Giving the option to reduce the difficulty will only change anything for the people who choose it. If there is a person out there who would play the game on easy mode and then complain it is to easy, while ignoring the normal mode... well errr I'm not sure what to say about something like that.

    As for Picasso, he did paint realism but changed to the abstract to stand out more. It was in fact more profitable to change his style.

    Metal Gear Solid is quite possible to complete without stealth. Its the option to allow stealth or run and gun that lets people get in and play the game.

    Something something your third point.

    Again I raise my point, its an easy MODE, it would allow more people to get into the game, it does not REPLACE the existing difficulty, only SUPPLEMENTS it.

    An easy mode would not threaten anything about the core of the game, other then supplying a larger fan base. All it would do is mean we would get alot of forum threads about how someone beat easy mode and was now retrying the game on hard, and is in need of some advice.
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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Emergence on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:09 pm

    The main point still stands. Easy mode is against the creator's vision. He wants you to struggle.


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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Onion Knight on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:10 pm

    'Again I raise my point, its an easy MODE, it would allow more people to get into the game, it does not REPLACE the existing difficulty, only SUPPLEMENTS it.

    An easy mode would not threaten anything about the core of the game, other then supplying a larger fan base. All it would do is mean we would get alot of forum threads about how someone beat easy mode and was now retrying the game on hard, and is in need of some advice.'



    Onion Knight wrote:The game already has an inbuilt difficulty for new players.
    Too hard?
    -Level up.
    -Upgrade your equipment.
    -Choose pyromancer(DS) or royal (DeS) as starting class.
    -Use magic or pyromancies.
    -Summon NPC's or other players.

    It's not the reputation that's ruined but the whole point of the game itself. Souls games are built around risk and reward, if there's no fear of dying or failure especially during boss fights (building up that adrenaline,) where's the risk? and so the reward is dampened, that feeling you get when you finally kill a boss and make progress? Now gone, for new players.

    Who says more players=better? With that logic Call Of Duty is the best game series ever created by humanity. Or that Dragon Age 2 is better than Origins.

    It would make the game boring, knowing that you could just run through the game in about a day, because progress is so easy and failure is never going to happen, you wouldn't get more people playing, those more casual gamers you seek would sell the game on after completion and move onto the next 'hyped' title.


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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:13 pm

    IMO . . . . This game is a badge of honor. This is because of it's reknowned difficulty. And, that is part of what makes DkS (and DeS). Having an easy version of these games just wouldn't be right. I love the fact there is no easy mode. It forced me to become a better player instead of taking the easy way out.

    It has always bothered me when games, that are known for their difficulty, get watered down to appeal to more masses.

    I'm also an avid Ninja Gaiden fan. That series is known for its difficulty too. In one of those, there was pressure for an easy mode. So, an easy mode was put in (Ninja DoG level). It was condescending to the player, which I found hilarious. Instead of armlets, you had to wear pastel colored ribbons. You were insulted by making the choice. Loved it. (BTW, don't ask me about NG3).


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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Marino. on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:17 pm

    No, i dont even want the Option to have a easy mode .

    Look if i get frustrated at for example a Boss Fight like Ornstein and Smough and i have the OPTION to easylie turn the Game to Easy mode and beat O&S now it feels like i have accomplished nothing , if i beat them on the regular difficult setting i have that feel of Victory .

    This is one of the main reasons why i play the Game .

    And if you can't bite through it then it is the wrong Game for you .
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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Aznul on Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:18 pm

    The problem is that giving someone a shortcut will usually lead people to take it unless they specifically want a challenge. If you breeze through everything the first time, why come back? Dark souls is built so that you never breeze through anything. You fight for your life at all times. That is part of the identity of the game. Why take that away? Many people are still playing the game because it can continue to challenge them no matter what. Easy mode? Ridiculous. That would be like taking a finished cake, and hollowing it out to leave just the icing. you shortcut to the tasty part, but it has no substance and too much makes you sick.


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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Slarg232 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:23 pm

    aprilmanha wrote:As for Picasso, he did paint realism but changed to the abstract to stand out more. It was in fact more profitable to change his style.



    This game was #6 on the Top Ten most sold by october the year it came out, and it was competing with Skyrim, Gears of War 3, and I beleive a Madden. From doesn't need to change it's style to get profit, there are plenty of us hardcore oldschool gamers that love this kind of thing.



    This game still has a bustling community over the year it's been out, how many others can say the same? Obviously it's doing something right....


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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by steveswede on Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:42 pm

    The conclusion I'm coming to with an easy mode is that the people that want this want the challenge removed. What they can't understand is that the challenge is a core mechanic and it will destroy what the Souls series is all about by removing it.

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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by aprilmanha on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:27 pm

    steveswede wrote:The conclusion I'm coming to with an easy mode is that the people that want this want the challenge removed. What they can't understand is that the challenge is a core mechanic and it will destroy what the Souls series is all about by removing it.

    But what about the players with lesser abilities, those of us who's skills are such that we would still find a Dark Souls "Easy" mode a challenge.

    Its not about removing the challenge for all, and if a so called DkS "Fan" only plays the next game in easy mode without playing the normal mode that is a real challenge for them, then it is really only them that is missing out. Us worse players would have a challenge beating Easy mode, before then tackling Normal mode, while more skilled players jump right in on hard mode!
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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Slarg232 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:45 pm

    aprilmanha wrote:
    steveswede wrote:The conclusion I'm coming to with an easy mode is that the people that want this want the challenge removed. What they can't understand is that the challenge is a core mechanic and it will destroy what the Souls series is all about by removing it.

    But what about the players with lesser abilities, those of us who's skills are such that we would still find a Dark Souls "Easy" mode a challenge.

    Its not about removing the challenge for all, and if a so called DkS "Fan" only plays the next game in easy mode without playing the normal mode that is a real challenge for them, then it is really only them that is missing out. Us worse players would have a challenge beating Easy mode, before then tackling Normal mode, while more skilled players jump right in on hard mode!



    So why not Trial by Fire it instead? It took me three hours to beat the Taurus Demon my first playthrough, and when I did finally beat him I had maybe 50 health left. You can't get good unless you do challenge yourself.


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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:56 pm

    aprilmanha wrote:
    steveswede wrote:The conclusion I'm coming to with an easy mode is that the people that want this want the challenge removed. What they can't understand is that the challenge is a core mechanic and it will destroy what the Souls series is all about by removing it.

    But what about the players with lesser abilities, those of us who's skills are such that we would still find a Dark Souls "Easy" mode a challenge.

    Its not about removing the challenge for all, and if a so called DkS "Fan" only plays the next game in easy mode without playing the normal mode that is a real challenge for them, then it is really only them that is missing out. Us worse players would have a challenge beating Easy mode, before then tackling Normal mode, while more skilled players jump right in on hard mode!

    Don't be ridiculous. What about players with only one thumb? And players who get sick at the sight of violence?

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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by aprilmanha on Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:02 pm

    BIG TIME MASTER wrote:
    Don't be ridiculous. What about players with only one thumb? And players who get sick at the sight of violence?

    I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, I'm pretty sure a player who is sick by the sight of violence would avoid the game entirely, not consider it but put it down after being stuck on the first enemy for an hour.

    And if a person has only one thumb and likes to play games, I'm pretty sure they can play dark souls if they choose to.
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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Onion Knight on Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:03 pm

    BIG TIME MASTER wrote:
    aprilmanha wrote:
    steveswede wrote:The conclusion I'm coming to with an easy mode is that the people that want this want the challenge removed. What they can't understand is that the challenge is a core mechanic and it will destroy what the Souls series is all about by removing it.

    But what about the players with lesser abilities, those of us who's skills are such that we would still find a Dark Souls "Easy" mode a challenge.

    Its not about removing the challenge for all, and if a so called DkS "Fan" only plays the next game in easy mode without playing the normal mode that is a real challenge for them, then it is really only them that is missing out. Us worse players would have a challenge beating Easy mode, before then tackling Normal mode, while more skilled players jump right in on hard mode!

    Don't be ridiculous. What about players with only one thumb? And players who get sick at the sight of violence?
    Don't forget about players who don't like games, gameplay should be optional!


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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:06 pm

    You missed the point.

    I'm not going to argue further, but you should read and reread all of the arguments against yours. I don't know how you can refute them.
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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Slarg232 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:11 pm

    Guys..... :oops:



    aprilmanha wrote:
    BIG TIME MASTER wrote:
    Don't be ridiculous. What about players with only one thumb? And players who get sick at the sight of violence?

    I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, I'm pretty sure a player who is sick by the sight of violence would avoid the game entirely, not consider it but put it down after being stuck on the first enemy for an hour.

    And if a person has only one thumb and likes to play games, I'm pretty sure they can play dark souls if they choose to.



    It's the same concept though; does an RPG player look at a shooter and say "I won't play it, you need to change it so I will play it!"? Does the Shooter player look at sports games and say "Sports are boring, make a sports game where you shoot people!" Do people who play Silent Hill complain about the game being scary/thoughtful/messed up?

    No.

    People didn't buy Amnesia; the Dark Descent because they wanted it to be less scary; Pneumbra was scary, they wanted more scary. People don't buy Call of Duty because they want innovation, they want more of the same (Not necessarily a bad thing). People don't buy God of War for it's deep, involved storyline, they buy that to ripe a gods head off.

    If you can convince the Amnesia guys to make their sequal less scary, the Call of Duty guys to change something, and the God of War guys to make their game story centric, then yes, we can put an easy mode in Dragon Souls.

    But often people buy things BECAUSE of what they ALREADY offer, not because of what they SHOULD offer.


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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Gazman0169 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:23 pm

    No, no, no!

    If it's a Souls game, then it should be as hard a fk right from the outset!

    I don't subscribe to this whole philosophy that in order to increase the games longevity we need to be pandering to the less determined amongst us by dumbing down the game, as DeS was proof that most gamers will not be turned off by a brutally hard game, but will in fact be drawn to it, and will inevitably rise to the challenge as they strive to become part of the elite group of gamers who have managed to see it through to the long and bitter end. That is why I am dismayed at all the patching that DkS has gone through, as in my mind a lot of it was totally unnecessary, and has pretty much destroyed the game.

    If anything we should be looking for the opposite to an easy mode, as a lot of us were quick to discover that attack patterns of the enemies and bosses, which pretty much killed any challenge that a normal run would have, hence the reason why we have seen a dramatic rise in challenge runs, far more than DeS ever had.

    It is important to realise that DeS and DkS are not the only brutally challenging games out there, which proves that there is a market for this sort of thing, and in order for the next Souls game to be competitive within this market it needs to stand out amongst the crowd by being a heck of a lot more brutal than the rest.

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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by aprilmanha on Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:29 pm

    Gazman0169 wrote:
    It is important to realise that DeS and DkS are not the only brutally challenging games out there, which proves that there is a market for this sort of thing, and in order for the next Souls game to be competitive within this market it needs to stand out amongst the crowd by being a heck of a lot more brutal than the rest.

    I dunno, if it tries to get any harder then it might stop being a harsh but fair game and become cheap and nasty. A bit like Ninja gaiden 2 did.
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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Gazman0169 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:46 pm

    Not at all. FROM will know exactly how to balance this out, and if they don't our growing community will soon set them on the right path. The point is, a 'Hardcore' mode will always be much more favorable than an 'Easy' one, for the plain and simple reason that most of us have come to the Souls games to be challenged in the most brutal way imaginable, not have our hands held like little school children.
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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:59 pm

    First off, I'd like to tell the OP that I appreciate the thought he/she put into this idea.

    However, I just don't think any Souls game needs this. I was a veteran of Demons Souls, played Dark on both systems, and witnessed an explosion of the game's popularity on Xbox. Enough people really dig this game despite the initial difficulty. The only thing I might say could help new players would be if the white soapstone could be given BEFORE Taurus, so that you might coop a bit just to see his attack patterns, while you have a bit of help.

    The tutorial messages explain core mechanics if people are willing to read them. If they don't, then they've experienced Dark Souls harsh lesson #1.

    As someone already pointed out, easy mode is the ability to summon. Now, imagine if they created a mode where you could opt to fight a boss like Manus alone, and reap additional rewards.

    Again, thanks for the post, OP. Despite the fact that you're getting a lot of negative responses, I still think putting forward these ideas is important.
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    Re: Could an easy mode in next Souls work like this?

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:01 pm

    Heres a little DKS story for you:

    I picked up DKS at a store basically on a whim. I thought the cover art looked cool and the back looked interesting, and I remember hearing about it being difficult on the internet. I had read part of a review or something some months before. I popped the game in and within an hour I had shut it off, deeming it to hard to be any fun. I didn't play it for months.

    One day something about the game drug me back to it, and the rest is history. The key here is in the moment I shut the game off and didn't play for months. That moment was pivotal in my DKS experience. The game absolutely refused to get any easier and thus I conceded. I was a quitter. It beat me. BUT, had the game had an easy mode I would have switched to it at that point, no question. I imagine most players would have, except a small elite group of super nerds, not enough for a fanbase. Had I switched to easy mode at that crucial moment and went on to beat the game that would have been it for me. I might have played it one more time, and I might have tried a little on hard mode, but I wouldn't stick with it. After having beaten it I wouldn't care to do the same thing twice but only more difficult, because whats the point? Bragging rights?

    It is the fact the DKS will not bend to the player that forces the player to bend to DKS.

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