Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

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    Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:21 am

    Just looking around and found a few things:

    At the bottom of the stone-ified Divine Blacksmith's tower (the door that gets unlocked after defeating the Moonlight Butterfly, at the end of the bridge):

    Oolicile-stile Ivy adorns the walls of this castle-like structure. This specific style of ivy is rare in 'modern day', but abundant all throughout Oolicile in the DLC.

    Now, at the top of the stone-ified Divine Blacksmith tower, looking downward toward the Forest Bonfire:

    You can't walk there, but tell me that giant hole in the ground isn't suspiciously similar to the holes gored through the Forest floor by the Abyss in the DLC!

    Just some interesting observations I thought. Could this mean the stone-ified Divine Blacksmith tower was once a part of Oolicile? Perhaps the only surviving structure?


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:28 am

    I thought that whole area was what was once Oolacile. Isn't the area where you fight the Sanctuary Guardian the same place you fight Sif? And I thought the area where Kalameet is is the place where the Hydra is in the Basin.

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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:18 am

    Technically, the forest in the DLC stops right before the Crest of Artorias door (coming from Sif's boss area, per se). There is no part of the level specifically mirroring Darkroot Garden on the other side of that door, whereas the whole Forest Hunter area is almost a dead wringer for the DLC level.

    Oolicile itself is not in 'modern day' Lordran, though it is likely that New Londo was built over its ashes (though I lean toward New Londo being built in the Chasm of the Abyss).


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:30 am

    Good work. I'm very intrigued by how the sanctuary/Sif's area work. You can see that the area between the santuary guardian fight and the bridge to sif (i.e. Eliza's area) has basically been removed somehow.


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:54 am

    Also sanctuary garden + oolicile sanctuary comprise where you fight Sif


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:54 am

    Aha!


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:01 am

    I dunno, the area where you fight the guardian is as big as Sif's area. And the path to wher Eliza is is different to the path to Sif. Its below and to the right if I remember correctly.


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by Astardbay on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:02 am

    JohnnyHarpoon wrote:Technically, the forest in the DLC stops right before the Crest of Artorias door (coming from Sif's boss area, per se). There is no part of the level specifically mirroring Darkroot Garden on the other side of that door, whereas the whole Forest Hunter area is almost a dead wringer for the DLC level.

    Oolicile itself is not in 'modern day' Lordran, though it is likely that New Londo was built over its ashes (though I lean toward New Londo being built in the Chasm of the Abyss).

    I don't think that's possible, as the Darkwraiths started in New Londo, & Artorias was known for slaying them, & you're (not) known for slaying Artorias...

    As for the layout, I think the place you fight Sif is the ruins of the arena you fight Artorias in, & the Royal Woods is Darkroot Garden. Darkroot Basin might be the remains of Oolacile Township. Maybe the Chasm was filled in with water eventually, hence the Hydra, & where you find Dusk.
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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by ublug on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:47 am

    I briefly touched upon this subject right after the dlc was released.



    The Yellow area is the part of the map that the dlc shares with the game. The red X'es (butterfly tower, new londo greatbridge, watchtower basement) are the structures you should be able to see from the dlc area, but they are simply not there, meaning they were built later.
    Also if you look up right as you enter the Chasm of the Abyss you can see sun above, so I believe the Chasm of the Abyss is the same valley as the Valley of Drakes, only further below. When you cross the Chasm bridge (fallen pillar) it will take you across the valley, right below New Londo. So both Manus and the Four Kings should be in roughly the same area.

    Edit: Updated the map
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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by hageshisa on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:44 am

    Sweet map!


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by samster628 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:43 pm

    i agree with the above about the map and i strongly agree that the darkroot forest is what was once oolicile. The evidence is clear if you play the dlc. Many areas overlap Plus the enimies in the dlc are the darkroot foliage. Just wearing clothes and with secutures and pitchforks and the like. And where is the township you might ask. Well it was liiking pretty shaky on top of the abyss and many buildings have collapsed already. The rest of the township must have fallen into the abyss. There are a few additions in the modern day forest and i think this must have been due to ether a few oolicile survivors or the cat covenant maintaining and building. The abyss in new londo is a completly different epesode involving the corruption of its kings and knights by kaathe.


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:53 pm

    I am mostly referring to the 3-D map as well, which has been laid out perfectly already.
    My point is, Alvina's a$$ basically points toward where you kill Artorias in the past. Oolicile Township extends leftward and wraps downward (in the map above) - thus, to me, it is quite likely that New Londo was actually built over remnants of lower Oolicile Township, or in my mind even actually IN the Chasm of the Abyss (that shred of sunlight in the Chasm is strikingly similar to that small shred of sunlight you get in New Londo as well). Also, the Tomb of the Giants is actually right up against New Londo, and so it's possible the Chasm of the Abyss turned into Tomb of the Giants as well, at least partially.

    Also, I think it's possible that over the years, a sort of tectonic shift has occurred, thus putting Artorias' body (with the wolf ring) where it is in modern day. This could also mean that the body in back corner of the area with the Green Blossom Toads and that one Stone Knight could be Chester's, from the past.

    Finally, I don't understand how Artorias hunted Darkwraith before the Abyss even existed. Chester is the only NPC invader in the DLC, and he claims to be from the future, though him not yielding a humanity when killed I find quite suspicious.


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:54 pm

    JohnnyHarpoon wrote:I am mostly referring to the 3-D map as well, which has been laid out perfectly already.
    My point is, Alvina's a$$ basically points toward where you kill Artorias in the past. Oolicile Township extends leftward and wraps downward (in the map above) - thus, to me, it is quite likely that New Londo was actually built over remnants of lower Oolicile Township, or in my mind even actually IN the Chasm of the Abyss (that shred of sunlight in the Chasm is strikingly similar to that small shred of sunlight you get in New Londo as well). Also, the Tomb of the Giants is actually right up against New Londo, and so it's possible the Chasm of the Abyss turned into Tomb of the Giants as well, at least partially.

    Also, I think it's possible that over the years, a sort of tectonic shift has occurred, thus putting Artorias' body (with the wolf ring) where it is in modern day. This could also mean that the body in back corner of the area with the Green Blossom Toads and that one Stone Knight could be Chester's, from the past.

    Finally, I don't understand how Artorias hunted Darkwraith before the Abyss even existed. Chester is the only NPC invader in the DLC, and he claims to be from the future, though him not yielding a humanity when killed I find quite suspicious.

    I said this a while back but the whole legend of Artorias hunting Dark Wraths and such could be chalked up as a lie, or how the legend changed over the centuries. We already know the legend was made up from what Elizabeth tells us when we defeat Manus. This is going to be out there and I honestly don't even believe it... but I just wanted to show this because I thought about it just now.

    We know there are alternate timelines and we know we (the Chosen Undead) was pulled back into time and killed Artorias. Don't you think it's possible that there is a timeline in which we (the Chosen Undead) remained in the time were we defeated Artorias and continued his work against the Abyss? Also, the Abyss had to exist before the Manus incident because one of the Serpents got Oolicile to dig... Meaning Manus is the Father of the Abyss but it wasn't born when he was awakened (more proof he's the Pygmy?).

    If that’s the case and the Abyss did exist before Manus was awakened then the Darkwrath incident could have happened the way we read the item descriptions. As in Artorias fought the Darkwraths, then joined their covenant to transverse the Abyss but was defeated by it.

    With that being said, you could say that the New Londo, and Oolicile events were happening in close proximity time wise. Kaathe had turned the 4 kings and the Darkwraths were wreaking havoc, Artorias battled them and for the most part is winning until he runs into the “Dark” of the Abyss (corrosive substance which is a bi-product). Kaathe deceives Artorias and tells him he will teach him the Art of Abyss walking in exchange for joining his covenant (which he did not know where the Darkwraths at the time thinking Kaathe was like Frampt). In doing this Artorias was stripped of his humanity. Then New Londo is flooded before Artorias has a chance to fight the 4 Kings.

    With the Kings sealed Kaathe needed to find a new power, to which he turned his attention to Manus. That led to the events of Oolicile. Artoria’s true down fall would have been that he trusted the covenant he had made with Kaathe and went into the Abyss thinking he was protected by its power. Yet his “Dark” (Humanity) had been taken from him. Elizibeth hints at this when speaking about Artorias she says something to the effect that Artorias has “nary a trace of Dark” in him, which is why he was defeated.

    If you are in that school of thought then you’d have to believe that before Manus’s “humanity” went wild the humanity sprites did not exist. The only method for getting humanity would then be the art of life drain. Which makes sense when you look at it this way because why would New Londo have been so enthralled by the offer of its power if there were humanity sprites they could collect when you kill someone.

    I do believe the Chasm of the Abyss is a part of the Valley of the Drakes. I also think we fight Sif where we fought the Sanctuary Guardian it looks different because during the construction of the gate they cleared out the other stuff. If you look at it that way… Alvinas building would be the building with the first elevator we take down. This would mean that the land has shifted up, as you suggested like a tectonic shift.

    Anyways sorry for the wall of text lol just my thoughts as I was reading this thread.



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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by joemann on Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:22 pm

    I have a question for those of you who believe that where you fight Sif is the same place you fight the Sanctuary Guardian: How did Artorias' grave get there?

    After you kill Artorias and you rest/warp, Ciarian shows up in the arena in front of Artorias' grave. So how in the world did the grave move? Is it possible that someone unearthed Artorias body and re-buried it elsewhere? If memory serves me right, the tombstone where the Sif fught occurs is much larger than the one in the arena after Ciarian shows up. This only brings up the questions of who moved the body and why?

    Also, just to mention it: Is it possible that Artorias' body remains buried in the arena, and the tombstone where you fight Sif is just a memorial of sorts to Artorias? Meaning, that Artorias' body is not actually buried where you fight Sif, but that someone simply put a Tombstone there as a memorial.

    I'm really just curious is all!
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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by dalsio on Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:15 pm

    That was something I was wondering. I've analyzed the topography and architecture of the area and there's no doubt in my mind that the area you fight Sif is the location of the Sanctuary Guardian. However, there are strange differences in these locations. For one thing, as joemann pointed out, this is Artorias' original grave. However, with the redemption of Artorias' honor and the legends spoken of him, it is not so far-fetched an idea that his grave was moved there by the other peoples of Lordran.

    The Royal Woods are an exact topographical match to Darkroot Forest beyond the Gate of Artorias, with the exception of some post-oolacile buildings and land changes that can be attributed to normal erosion. Darkroot Basin is also an exact match, as well, to the area you fight Kalameet.

    I'm not sure where Ooolacile went. Perhaps the Abyss swallowed it, perhaps New Londo was build on it, perhaps Seath did some failed experiments there that didn't sit to well with the landscape, who knows. I suspect, however, that the fact that Oolacile doesn't exist is the reason Artorias' grave was moved, suggesting that Oolacile's disappearance was rather expected. As for the body with his ring, that can be chalked up to grave robbers, before Sif was there to protect it. Or, perhaps, when he was swallowed by the abyss he shed his knight's ring, a symbol of his past and it was picked up by an adventurer. I doubt that his body would remain so intact so long after his death.

    Yes, the abyss existed probably long before Manus was awakened. They unleashed a beast, they did not create it. It is not yet known why or when Manus' humanity went wild, created the Abyss. I do wonder as to why he and the Abyss were dormant, however. Why was he asleep, and why was it so easy for the people of Oolacile to wake him? Why did the Abyss not seem to be important until then? However, I don't really like the idea that New Londo was built on top of Oolacile. I'm not entirely sure why, but it doesn't seem right to me.

    It is unlikely that the incidents of Oolacile and New Londo happened at the same time, I believe the Abyss in Oolacile and the Abyss in New Londo are far apart, and come from different sources. When you defeat Manus in the DLC, Hawkeye Gough says that you can stay
    the corrosion of the land by defeating Manus, but that, "One day, the
    flames will fade, and only dark will remain..." In the time of the Hero,
    the flame has indeed faded, and the darkness of the Abyss finds new
    life in Anor Lodno and the Four Kings.

    For another thing, the idea that the boss fight against the Four Kings was geographically near anything seems odd to me. I was under the impression that that form of the Abyss was an entirely different plane of existence. A place where physical space did not matter, since the flooding of new londo was irrelevant to them. They retreated there to be safe from the outside world until they could be freed, suggesting that it was not a geological barrier protecting them, but a dimension of the Abyss. Why you need special abilities to live in this plane and not the Abyss in oolacile is a mystery to me.

    Finally, this idea of tectonic shifting is absurd. For one thing, I think putting tectonic shift in a game's lore is going too far, even for From. Second, True earth-like tectonic shift doesn't occur of the span of such a short amount of time. Real tectonic shifting takes thousands of years just to move a matter of inches. By the time the land tectonic shifts to any noticeable amount, nothing at all would look the same. Water and air erosion would turn rocky structures into dust. Kingdoms ages old would fade and crumble, entire forests would go extinct and re-appear somewhere else.

    It is far more likely that some other force caused the distortion of the terrain. Perhaps the stop of the Abyss cause the holes in the land to cease to be able to support themselves, and be filled in. The resulting shift may have cause the landscape to change. Perhaps the same reason Oolacile is no longer there is also responsible for the change in the landscape. And let's not forget that there are an innumerable amount of magical and artificial forces available to this land, and any number of the powerful beings there could have cause that kind of change.


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:47 pm

    @joeman Artorias “grave” in Darkroot is more than like a
    memorial… not his actual grave. Ciran’s make shift grave she made was just some
    bricks from around and all she said was this is “where he fell” not that he was
    buried there. She could have taken the body, maybe why she wanted his soul?


    @dalsio Maybe not tectonic, yes the wrong word was used… but
    a very large earthquake type incident seems likely, or the corrosion of the
    Abyss caused the land to collapse like you said. Either way, however it happened
    really doesn’t matter, the fact is the land has shifted and changed from when
    we were there. I didn’t really mean happen at the same time… but in very close proximity,
    like New Londo a year before. Either way though I need to do a little more
    research before I commit to that theory as well. Mainly because New Londo (according to the
    Creastfallen Knight in Firelink) was an Undead City, and it seems like no one in
    the DLC really knows what an Undead is…


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by samster628 on Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:18 pm

    Y'know i think the abyss must be some kind of hostile plane of existence and clearly is very difficult to the normal physical world. The enterance to it is blocked by the water yet there is no way there was enough water to fill the whole abyss. plus you float in the abyss when you fight the kings (ish). i think its a plane of existence eternally trying to devour other planes which it generally does by the b*d snake that some people beleve to be the best hope for mankind - kaathe. Also i sincerly doubt new londo was built on oolicile. for one thing it seems like a really bad idea to think ohh look a massive hole in the ground. lets build a city on it! new londo is also underground whereas oolicile isnt. lastly i dont think it is the correct place on the 3D map but thats debatable.


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:14 am

    Earthquake is a word more or less made up to describe the human experience of tectonic shifting. In fact, I used that term to generalize such that it could have been a quick earthquake as easily as it could be a warping of land over thousands of years.

    Also, whereas there is a history/timeline, time is kind of totally skewed in Lordran. The only way to even become 'unstuck in time' seems to be some kind of magical time travel - otherwise, every time you rest at a bonfire, time sort of just resets. So in my mind, who is to say when exactly something happened or whether something is 'impossible'? Personally, I think it more likely the Wolf Ring would still be on the body of Artorias, as the Hornet Ring was on Ciaran's (who dies not long after Artorias, more than likely). Also, in reference to Artorias and Chester, merely find it peculiar that both bodies in the Forest lie so close to one another, near a body of water, with one lying in a cliffside corner and the other seemingly important enough to have been excavated, with some kind of makeshift staircase and it's own personal Stone Guardian. That's just me, though.

    Additionally, if you want to talk about looters, Domnhall seems to be guilty of claiming Artorias' armor (no ring to be found).

    I like the idea that Humanity didn't exist as a sprite before this Manus incident, and I'd go so far as to say that, in a way, Artorias is the first 'hollow'. All other enemies in the DLC seem warped or twisted in some way...but Artorias remains intact, wildly swinging his sword at anything he seems to see. The only problem is that he was not Human, and thus the Abyss had to stay with him and corrode away at his very soul, instead of merely turning him hollow and being done with it.

    I do not think it a stretch for the stories of Artorias hunting Darkwraith to be a fabrication - Elizabeth says so, so why wouldn't she be right? The dude was conquered by the Abyss, but his honor needed to be preserved, as his Soul description says. Makes sense to me.

    Finally, the 3-D map is a rendering of the game's collision data, so it is actually a quite accurate representation of Lordran. Tomb of the Giants wraps around New Londo, and both of them lie in the general direction that Oolicile/Chasm of the Abyss seems to curve. Valley of the Drakes just seems to skinny/valley-y for Oolicile to have been there, though it is the space in between Darkroot Basin and New Londo, which means Oolicile could have curved through it. Also, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Abyss in the DLC and New Londo were in the same place, though I have no idea how true it is.

    Personally, I think it makes sense that New Londo would get built after this incident, as I see it as a hidden city attempting to harness the Abyss out of view of the watchful eye of Anor Londo. I do agree that the Abyss itsel existed before this incident, but generally speaking the Abyss is just representative of destruction and death, so of course it existed - one serpent sucks it all into the Abyss, and the other shoots out fire from which things are born - a black hole and a white hole - in one end, out the other (so to speak). Still, I think this incident is important, in particular reference to Humanity.


    Last edited by JohnnyHarpoon on Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:22 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Grammar)


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:18 am

    samster628 wrote:Y'know i think the abyss must be some kind of hostile plane of existence and clearly is very difficult to the normal physical world. The enterance to it is blocked by the water yet there is no way there was enough water to fill the whole abyss. plus you float in the abyss when you fight the kings (ish). i think its a plane of existence eternally trying to devour other planes which it generally does by the b*d snake that some people beleve to be the best hope for mankind - kaathe. Also i sincerly doubt new londo was built on oolicile. for one thing it seems like a really bad idea to think ohh look a massive hole in the ground. lets build a city on it! new londo is also underground whereas oolicile isnt. lastly i dont think it is the correct place on the 3D map but thats debatable.

    In theory, I agree about the Abyss, but I think it does have to physically exist (or at least, entrances have to exist), and so technically it lies way below New Londo, bleeding into the Tomb of the Giants (where you go outside and it looks like Ash Lake in the distance) and on the other side into the Demon Ruins (to the left of the steps with all the fire breathing statues, if you're headed toward the boss fog).


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by samster628 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:18 pm

    i think once the abyss has been let in it spreads. I still disagree that anyone would build on top of a gaping hole and also oolicile isnt underground like new londo. Apart from that i agree with JH. So yeah the abyss. seems to me that kaathe causes people to create (for lack of a better word) the abyss from the dark soul. In oolicile he causes the people to awaken manus and nick his pendant. in New londo he causes the darkwraiths to go about collecting peices of the dark soul (humanity). the abyss appears to sort of spread like an infection. afflicted land goes blue and sludgy then dissolves and the abyss is what is left behind. I'm not sure how it warps people or how exactly it is called upon (but like i say i think the dark soul is the missing link).


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:05 am

    This is how the game is laid out - if you look in the forest, to the
    left is Alvina's hut (the buildings with the bridge in between), and her
    butt basically faces Oolicile. If you take the elevator in her tower
    down (in the past), you end up directly below. You can turn left, and
    then left again, which leaves you with a 180-degree turn back so you're
    facing toward the cliffside again (i.e. same way Alvina is facing).
    Then, you take a REALLY LONG elevator downward, which seems to
    approximately mirror the elevator in Darkroot Basin (visible in the map), but either way, you
    more than likely end up in the Chasm of the Abyss, or...the VALLEY OF
    THE DRAKES.

    Given our map is at a fixed perspective, essentially
    follow the map downward from Alvina's tower. Then, move right about
    30-50 character paces, and then move downward again. That is where the
    elevator leaves you off in the Chasm of the Abyss, or Valley of the
    Drakes in the future).


    [

    Personally, I now believe that the Chasm of the Abyss was mostly the in the Valley of the Drakes, with more than likely some bleed over into New Londo, albeit mostly insignificant. HOWEVER, in the Chasm, there is a large bridge going diagonally downward, and I believe that this bridge leads you from Valley of the Drakes, not to the right into New Londo, but downward and into the Tomb of the Giants.

    Tomb of the Giants wraps around New Londo, mostly going directly under it, and it makes sense that, at least one time, the TotG had access to the Abyss (which, truthfully, it makes sense that Primaeval Human would be buried in what the TotG used to be.

    I could have taken more pictures, but really I just couldn't be bothered. I believe the map is pretty accurate, though, and these findings are merely what I believe to make the most sense, after experimenting with the map while simultaneously playing and switching between Royal Wood and Darkroot.


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:14 am

    Oh, and I also believe that New Londo came after this Oolicile incident because the New Londo Church and the Undead Parish churches are the same design, and thus more than likely built during similar periods. No similar church exists in Oolicile, and even the 'Old Church' that Andre refers to is of a different design.

    Regardless of which came first, in my mind the Undead Parish not being built (as evidenced by you should be able to see parts from the Forest if it was around, and you can't) would allude to New Londo more than likely not being built yet, either.


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    Re: Remnants of Oolicile in Modern Lordran

    Post by samster628 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:30 am

    I agree that the burg was not built at the time but i am not sure about new londo. I think the chasom of the abyss is below the modern day valley of the drakes but i think it might the same place in terms of X and Y. I also agree that the toumb of the gians is next to new londo. someone buried there dead there and in the catacoumbs why not the londonions?


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