Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

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    Eliminate parry and backstab entirely?

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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by Odinbear on Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:50 pm

    Nay, parry/reposte and backstabs are part of fighting with edged weapons and the entire part of getting good at demon souls and dark souls.

    ( I know the poster didn't ask, but the suggestion that's been made here about a smaller window to bs, like DS is all that is needed to fix it, if it needs fixin )
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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by aprilmanha on Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:54 pm

    Make it so that parry could only be pulled off if you wear using a smaller RH weapon.
    Also make BS's only performable by rogues.
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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by SecYess on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:10 pm

    I haven't read all comments so i might repeat someone. I think both are indeed a part of the game, but the damage effects may be reduced. I've been playing against some real good guys out there, and as good as they are, it get boring to be OHKO BS ten times in a row... So lesser damage would be fair and maybe more realistic.

    I also liked the idea of someone suggesting bloking BS by having your shield on your back. Sounds plausible.

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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:12 pm

    SecYess wrote:I also liked the idea of someone suggesting bloking BS by having your shield on your back. Sounds plausible.

    Vereor nox.

    Everyone then would just 2-hand their weapons with the Grass Crest Shield on their backs.

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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:16 pm

    I love how people down rep just because they don't agree with other people's opinions. It's a little ridiculous


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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:48 pm

    realism is a non issue. The game has magic yo.

    if anything, if we were going for realism, a bs or riposte would be instantly fatal a lot of the time, ever seen someone take an 8 foot long sword through the chest and be able to keep fighting?


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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:55 pm

    No, but I've seen a scythe go right through someone's chest and get pulled out again, and that doesn't even make sense... :|

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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by Aznul on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:20 pm

    Nay, keep them in. I may not play online, but I see no real long term benefit of removing elements of the game that require at least some margin of skill to use. (Personally I just cannot parry to save my life, so I dodge or block)


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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by fujiphoenix on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:21 pm

    No, because if you get parried its your own fault. Backstabs are annoying, but I wouldn't want something as fundamental as that removed just because some players don't like them. FROM has to set a precedent somehow.
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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:53 pm

    I think the way backstabs work in this game is quite cheap, not only in PvP (where it is infinitely worsened by the lag) but in PvE, where you can see them to cheese a lot of enemies. Parries are okay, and are a matter of risk/reward and skill, but backstabs are just a cheap move. I would remove them, or rather, change them. Instead of your character standing still letting themselves be destroyed by whatever weapon the opponent is using, I would make blows that strike your back ignore armor or receive bonus damage. They would still be dangerous, but they would be much more difficult to perform, as the character would not sit idle waiting for the attack to connect. It'd would also make parries more valuable, I think.

    I know many players are against changes in the status quo of the Souls series, but I think this would have good consequences in the way people face certain encounters and PvP, and it would make the game more challenging and at the same time, fair.
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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:59 pm

    I find the soul series incredibly fair.

    You want an example of unfair go play the silver surfer or devil may cry on hell. Thats unfair.

    As everything in the soul series pvp can be done by both parties and the seperation is in skill/experience it is the very definition of fair.


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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:19 am

    I didn't say it was unfair. I meant that changing backstabs would make the game more fair than it is while increasing difficulty. The way backstabs work now is cheap, even if both parties can perform them. We're talking about the Soul series so bringing in other games is ridiculous..."X game is worse" should mean nothing to us. Also yes, the two parties can perform these backstabs (that have huge windows exaggerated even more by lag) but if one tried to counter lagstab with lagstab, all PvP matches would consist of players circling each other and trying to roll BS all the time. Getting rid of these kind of matches would enhance the quality of PvP, in my opinion.

    BS fishing should not be a viable strategy, and getting one shot by a hornet lagstab should not happen.

    As for PvE, backstabs make black knights and Havel (and maybe I'm forgetting other examples) a complete joke. At least with parrying there's risk/reward, with BSing in PvE you just have to keep your should up and strafe around an enemy.
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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:52 am

    sorcery makes pve a complete joke, everything goes down in 1 0r 2 hits, even most bosses take less than 10 if you've got the best spell avalaible at the time and put points intto int.

    Turtling with a mid or greatshield and a spear makes most of the game a joke, few things attack fast enough to break a guard with a decent shield allowing you to poke at will.

    Lots of things make pve a joke.

    What should or shouldn't be a viable strategy is a worthless arguement, its subjective and ultimately the devs decide what their game should or shouldn't have and act accordingly.

    There are numerous and varried ways to counter all but the most heinious of lagstabs. The "cheap" lable comes from the time delay between the bsies mistake and the bsers punish. BS fishing is simply pressuring opponents into making a mistake for one to bs, if it works its usually the recievers fualt for screwing up.

    Guide to Backstabbing Part 1


    Guide to Backstabbing Part 2


    both videos detail how to bs, avoid bsing and recognise attempts. It helps illustrate my point as well but if that doesn't work tyr asking Jansport, he can explain it better than I.

    There are numerous ways to stop bsing without bsing as well, I'm rarely bsd because i favor ug weapons and pyromancy, both allow me to piviot as I attack to punish a bs attampt. Backpedaling and/or kisking will stop most bs attempts as well.

    If all someone does is ciircle for a bs, quite frankly, they probably blow and if they kill you, you have it coming as that is a hugely flawed and easily countered strategy.

    If you think it ruins the game, thats on you and I recommend you organise with others who feel the same and play with them. Many people feel as you do, it shouldn't be too difficult.


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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:22 am

    All the things you mentioned (Magic, turtling, etc) are things that should be fixed in my opinion. Turtling was already nerfed and it's much better now. I agree that magic damage is silly and I don't think it should be so strong in PvE. Listing other flaws of the game does not change that I believe backstabs are a flawed mechanic, at least on its implementation

    What should or shouldn't be a viable strategy is a worthless arguement,
    its subjective and ultimately the devs decide what their game should or
    shouldn't have and act accordingly.

    Everything is subjective but if we take refuge in relativism all the time, nothing gets done. And developers should listen to their communities and then judge if they think the feedback is right or not. They probably do already, watching the community and asking "do backstabs work as we intended?" The choice is ultimately theirs, yes, I agree, but it doesn't mean we should not state our opinions.

    I know that backstabs can be avoided, yes, but I still think they are a flawed mechanic. They mold PvP matches, as people have to pay attention to these things to avoid backstabs, all the time, and even then, even the best player may fall prey to a lagstab from time to time. I simply think that getting rid of them would improve how PvP matches are fought.

    I don't think they ruin the game, don't worry.
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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:26 am

    remove... no, tighten the window... yes except for rapiers and daggers those get a wider bs window than others but everything else gets a smaller window.


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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:42 am

    Everything molds the combat. Its simply another layer, a strategy to counter and/or exploit. Bsing has a big impact yes, but parrying has just as big an effect if one is good at it.

    What bsing boils down is a punishment for poor spacing. Spacing is incredibly crucial anyways, so maintaining proper spacing should be ones top priority anyways. It seems harsh because spacing is a difficult skill to master and the opponent is likely actively trying to change the spacing that you're fighting for and space themselves so they have an advantage.

    Ultimately what all pvp is, is a game of who can exploit what the best, by knowing as much as possible. There are so many things that a good player should be paying attention to all of the time that paying attention to bsing is both easy and trivial against all but the best (or worst) players.

    There are sometimes super broken things that should be fixed, but these are incredibly rare. Bsing isn't like akuma and arceus where its use these things or fall to them.

    For the record, I didn't mean to imply that disliking that aspect of the game was a bad thing, merely attempting to explain why I am of the opinion that it is a crutial part of the game.


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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by Marino. on Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:47 am

    They should just lower the Damage caused by a Backstab, so that you deal what ? 10 % more Damage than with a normal attack ? I dont know .

    It would remove so much frustration from the PVP and i bet noone can say anything against it .

    But yeah, Backstabs and Ripostes should stay in the Series happy

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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:17 am

    Keep them in. Both are avoidable, baitable, and counterable. Not too sure those last two were words.


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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by vatar5 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:33 am

    reim0027 wrote:Keep them in. Both are avoidable, baitable, and counterable. Not too sure those last two were words.

    Sure is Fawkes. :face:


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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:29 am

    Good comments, but some of you need to obey the rules!

    Just post your opinion and be done!

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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by Juutas on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:45 am

    Nay, both just need some tweaking.
    If backstabs would be removed, some things in the game would be hell to deal with (magic spammers, spears...).
    I played with the idea that only dex weapons could deal backstabs and str-weapons would all have hyper armor (cannot be interrupted while swinging) or that the backstab could only be done with a certain weapon types like daggers. Difficult subject.


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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by StarScarJenova on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:33 am

    Coming back to Dark Souls tomorrow, won't dlc till they fix the ps3 version. Alright, on topic, no. I agree with the idea to make the backstab harder to perform, maybe minimize the hit box, or implement a chance happening like a critical hit percentage. Weapons with a higher crit stat have a higher chance, but never 100%. I think this would make backstabs less spammy. On parry+riposte, never, no need to touch it. big grin


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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by aceluby on Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:23 pm

    Taking away parries and backstabs would hurt the PvE aspect of the game FAR worse than it would help the PvP aspect, and for the PvP aspect I think this just takes away certain builds as being viable while making other builds (specifically, sorcerers) overpowered to the point that it would be the only build we see. The only changes I support are ones that increase the viability of builds and increase build variety, not take it away.


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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:41 pm

    Yes, the variety of this game's build would be hurt so much without the creative BKGA hornet builds....you are right.

    Also, why would changing backstabs hurt the PvE aspect? The enemies that can be backstabbed can be absolutely trivialized by simply holding up a shield and strafing around them.
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    Re: Eliminate parry and backstab? FINISHED

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:51 pm

    Well the poll numbers are pretty one sided, so we know how the voting majority of the forum feels.

    Based on written responses, it seems the general consensus is that we would like backstab to be nerfed either by narrowing the window as in DES or by taking down the damage or availability, and that there is no problem with parries.

    I think that this is a good opinion!


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