Spears anyone?

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    TheMeInTeam
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:09 am

    PlasticandRage wrote:Semantics. Some word choice denotes insulting tones. I don't appreciate it either way. Especially considering I didn't intend to argue against the relevance of things that are suddenly being taken issue with enough to defend, and stated that clearly as soon as they started to be defended.

    Hey, if you're allowed to make silly claims, why can't I refute them and then actually discuss something pretty on-topic (the strength of spears in history vs their tendency to be weak in games).

    People hate turtles in this game, but the reality is that spears don't damage poise a lot and blocking + attacking at the time takes a tremendous amount of stamina...stamina that regens more slowly in heavier armor. So really, a more wise use of the spear to avoid getting claymore combo'd or any other number of things would be to poke + quickly retreat (generally roll back). The way to pressure that is with status/ranged or with spells they're ill-equipped to block.

    One thing about spear users is that they usually don't pack the greatshields because spears generally don't scale well with str. That means you can magic-spam them too potentially.

    IMO if you don't have a good ranged way to press spears then the best approach is to put pressure on them and have more stamina if they try to block + stab or stab + roll (both leave you at a stamina advantage, which you have to capitalize on by staying on them and beating on their defenses, hopefully getting a stagger + more damage than the spear wielder did with his poke + roll).

    It's not always easy, but it really isn't easy to fight any effectively-played setup. The spear turtle has it a little easier, but his ceiling isn't really higher than other players.

    Katanas are super effective against leather armor; And katanas are still
    super effective against early bronze armor, as long as it's thrusted
    into the armor.

    That's why I said slashing. It's no secret that early armors were pretty terrible against thrusting weapons of any kind. I bet you if you put that exact same armor up, and slammed any reasonably-pointed iron spear into it, you'd get a killing result also.

    But lots and lots of early military weapons relied on thrusting for just that reason. That the katana can do ti also shouldn't be surprising.

    A bit more off topic, but interesting, is that some of the better armor against that was lamellar (I think that's spelled correctly, not sure), which was much easier to put together than western plate mail, easier to maintain, and probably at least as effective (and WAY more effective than chain mail, which always sucked against piercing weapons).

    Does Dark Souls even have something similar to lamellar? I forget but it doesn't seem so IIRC.
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:14 am

    You can make claims all you want. My issue is that you refuted something I didn't say, directed it at me, and did it in an insulting way. I was simply making an observation about the technological advance of the metal. Literally having nothing to do with the technique involved in wielding that metal. You misinterpreted my analogy to be that way, but it's not what I was saying. You can tell by me starting by saying 'on a technological level." Lashing back at that not only with an argument irrelevant to what I said, but also formed in a way that attacks my character makes me take issue with it.


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:44 am

    Sheesh guys, maybe it's time for a break?

    I should have known my comment would bring out all the weapons "experts". I'm sorry thread.

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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:44 am

    You can make claims all you want. My issue is that you refuted something I didn't say

    Not sure what you believed I was refuting, but I was refuting the analogy of a Machine Gun to a Musket compared to katanas vs western swords of that time or even earlier. I'm not sure how much you know about gun history, but even the rifled barrel was such a drastic step in weapon efficacy that it's far more than any jump a melee weapon has made...but now we're talking about long ranged automatics lol. Part of my frustration is just how many people think katanas are capable of things they simply can't do. Your analogy was so silly that it reminded me of the general over-love katanas get.

    Now, this is actually a Japanese game in origin, so it makes sense for katanas to be very good. And in fact, they ARE probably the best slashing weapons, but slashing weapons just aren't very good against metal armor of any kind...while a simple rifled gun is so far superior to a musket that it's silly...and machine guns in comparison are a joke. 1 guy with a MG could mop dozens of guys with muskets on an open field. 1 guy with a katana couldn't even beat 2 people with metal armor + shield of any kind.

    I was simply making an observation about the technological advance of the metal.

    It was a significant step in history for sure, but not THAT significant.

    also formed in a way that attacks my character makes me take issue with it.

    Ignorant statements do not necessarily mean the person is ignorant (I don't think there's a person out there who hasn't made a few odd statements), and I don't see how it attacks your character whatsoever either way.

    But folded steel vs steel or even iron against muskets vs rifled barrels + automatic firearms? As they say on ESPN...C'mon man!

    Maybe it's just that firearms are probably the most significant military advancement in history. Organized military HAD to use spears when fighting in groups...until that would just get them mowed down! Tactics and realities changed over an alarmingly short period of time...something no forging innovation could touch.

    If the Chinese had applied their knowledge of gunpowder to producing cannons (and they had knowledge to do so 1000's of years before firearms ever saw serious use on the battlefield), then that would have been similar.


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Aznul on Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:07 am

    I had no idea this thread would generate so many responses. I appreciate the feedback.

    Also enjoyed the rants lol!

    Haven't actually tried katanas yet in dark souls, maybe now i will.


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:54 am

    They are very fast weapons that with the proper build will hit pretty hard, plus bleed. The only issue is they can be very predictable, but the rolling R1 has nice dead angles. It's incredibly easy to predict, but if you dead angle with it of course you won't need to fear a parry.

    Also guys let's not make it personal or take it personally. I do find the whole discussion very interesting to read from the perspective of both sides.
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Emergence on Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:30 am

    If we you would like to continue the discussion about historical weaponry, let me know and I can split the post into off topic. Otherwise, let's please get back on the in no way controversial topic of spear use. silly


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Nybbles on Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:53 am

    for what it's worth spears are probably the most effective weapons and the most used on the battle field across pretty much every culture in the history of warfare. for good reason as well. its reach meant you could use it to control the battlefield, its thrust was effective against most types of armour, it could be thrown and it was a good defense against horseman.

    however nothing quite matches the craftsmanship and mystique of the Katana in terms of historical weaponry.

    but it is my personal feeling that the most underrated weapon is the shield. i'm not talking about its defensive use, i mean as an actual offensive weapon. with the right kind of shield, a well placed bash was as effective as using a mace. most people don't even think of a shield in that way.

    coming back to dark souls, the iron round shield should have had a swinging over the shoulder bash (Sparta!) instead of a parry or the great shields' "push" animation.

    i'm also glad that the spear is as effective as it is, even with its low base damage it can wreck through PVE more than almost any other weapon in the game. it's just not as stylish as the katanas.
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Odinbear on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:30 pm

    [quote="Vinyl Scratch"][quote="TheMeInTeam"]
    PlasticandRage wrote:

    Check out this video.


    Thanks, neat video. +1 (if I only knew how to uprep, I would. Lol)

    Btw, love spears 2 handed (lightning spear was an early fav for a first play toon). Ouch they said, invaders too.
    Halberds are good too, IMO .


    Last edited by Odinbear on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:31 pm

    Haha I saw a show where they measured the Gs someone could put on a head with a spartan shield, and it was many times greater than what was needed to kill someone X_X. That shields are very important in this game is a great and refreshing thing.

    Are people really struggling against spears? I find they get back-stabbed or magic-spammed easily enough, and while we're on the topic of katana "predictability", it's definitely worth mentioning that most spears in this game don't exactly carry a movepool with oceanic depth. As I mostly forest invade I had to stop using spears because they're obviously terrible vs ganks, but I'm not sure it'd be so amazing even 1v1.

    In PvE though? A well-upgraded spear with the proper scaling (or even just a maxed elemental in the right situation honestly) is an absolutely destructive force and one of the lowest risk options...along with things like bows/xbows.

    Xbow is probably the most under-used utility weapon in PvE. With binoculars you can hit pretty impressive distances. However, it also has virtually no stat dependencies and when upgraded hits very hard. My first wins against Quelag, O&S, Centipede Demon, Moonlight Butterfly, Iron Golem, and probably a few bosses I'm forgetting all factored a crossbow and were not hard fights once I used it (well, centipede was a little hard). However, even outside of boss battles it has the same pull-utility as a bow and can similarly be used for things like sniping those annoying channelers in the archives.


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Hatsune Miku on Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:00 pm

    Emergence wrote:If we you would like to continue the discussion about historical weaponry, let me know and I can split the post into off topic. Otherwise, let's please get back on the in no way controversial topic of spear use. silly

    ^This.

    Also, Can we please stop bickering you guys?


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