Spears anyone?

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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Marino. on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:10 pm

    Whaaa-
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:18 pm

    Nevermind. It was a joke. Cheap crappy katanas chip. The real ones are supposedly super durable. I'm not really a sword collecting kinda guy. So I don't know from personal experience. Only from what I read in the zombie survival guide.


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:23 pm

    By the way, Katana are actually terrible weapons to use in a western setting. In make they are supperior yes. The issue comes in their design, Western Armor makes Katana useless. As well weapons such as maces will break the thin blade.

    Katana are much better against bladed enemies with light armor.

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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:26 pm

    PlasticandRage wrote:
    Like from a technological standpoint


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:29 pm

    I just felt the gun comparison wasn't fair.

    I'd actually rather use a short sword than a Katana, since it is less likely my weapon will be broken or damaged.

    I'm not saying Japanese made shoddy weapons either. The Katana was very smart for what they fought against.
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:43 pm

    I am no expert, but Katanas are designed to slash, right?

    How can that defeat plate armor, or even chainlink? I think only a powerful thrust or a heavy, powerful weapon like a mace could puncture or smash sturdy armor. Weren't the samurais wearing leather armor?

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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:45 pm

    well Samurai's wore plate armor also. They were primarily for slashing, but could effectively pierce as well


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:48 pm

    Leather armor could still be pierced by a Katana, but a normal broad sword is better for it. You are right Western Armor absolutely defends from a Katana. That's why I always found it funny when people would say, "Who would win, a Samurai or a Knight?" Well if the Knight is wearing plate the Samurai literally cannot hurt him with a Katana. Unless he is using their form of Mace, but I always asked and they gave the Samurai the Katana. It just can't do a thing to Chain and up. That's why I always found it amusing how effective they are in Dark Souls and other games. With the type of armor in game you'd be better of using a farmer's sickle.

    Plastic, if a Katana tried to stab plate it just would not happen. Because of how thin the blade is it would either break, or just be redirected.
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:58 pm

    Guh. I didn't mean from a perspective of "If a knight were to fight a samurai." I said right there: "From a technological standpoint the folded metal of the katana was way ahead of European technology." and that they were in fact designed to fight plate armor. I didnt say they were designed to heavy metal plate, but could be used as piercing weapons. I'm not trying to relive Deadliest Warrior here.


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:01 pm

    I'm just talking about full plate armor, or even half plate armor. Now, if they aren't wearing chain mail or any sort of under armor. Sure, the katana could just slash a joint and get a kill easily.

    Most weapons have extreme difficulty piercing plate period. But there is also a reason most people had very little armor. Like 10 people out of 400 men would have that sort of armor so it really wouldn't really matter.

    The Katana is superior in design, but it is not designed to pierce armor like that. But again, most people didn't wear that kind of armor.
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Ghadis_God on Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:41 pm

    On the field of battle, a samurai would use his katana as a thrusting weapon against other heavily armored samurai. Furthermore, samurai did not wear any form of protection under their armor- the use of the katana in warfare was to slash and pierce the joints of the opponent, something that would not work against a Knight who wore chainmail underneath his plate. Secondly, most of the warfare in both situations was against unarmored peasants conscripted and forced to fight by their feudal lords, against whom any form of weaponry was effective. Finally, even the broadswords used by knights would be used against other knights in a "half swording" technique, gripping the blade to make accurate thrusts. A knight would be as unlikely to be damaged by a samurai as a samurai would be by a knight.


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:48 pm

    Pretty much, I sort of imagine they wouldn't waste their time fighting and would just try to kill the normal ground troops instead.
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:14 pm

    PlasticandRage wrote:Well skill and tactical usage are universal. I just mean as far as construction is concerned katanas are superior weapons to most weapons built in other places during that period.

    Like from a technological standpoint using a broadsword to fight a guy with a katana is like using a musket to fight a guy with a machine gun

    Such a comparison is asinine and flagrantly ignorant. Even the single best-made katana that ever existed in history couldn't slash through a standard piece of armor worn by a Greek soldier 1000+ years before it was made. That leaves piercing, where they really weren't superior to any other sword and strictly inferior to spears on a battle line. This "machine gun to musket" nonsense is utterly ridiculous :p.

    Spears ruled organized melee combat between armored soldiers until guns obsoleted them. Spears, ironically considering this thread, are the single most underrated weapon in video game history. It's a GOOD thing that this game gives them some actual advantages.

    Katanas were only "great" vs people not wearing armor. Vs people wearing it and fighting with even a mild amount of military skill, katanas were just another sword. More durable thanks to superior metal made in later times, but nevertheless no more capable of defeating armor or especially shields than any other piercing weapon made of the entirety of pre-gunpowder military history. You'd have been equally or more (probably more) likely to kill an armored guy with a shield bash or a blunt instrument than a katana...and smaller, more specialized swords are better at getting around a shield + into nooks in armor.

    In short, katanas are painfully overrated in history. Can you name one seriously successful army that used them as a primary weapon to conquer another country?

    Now, compare that success rate to spears, or even those "inferior" western short swords the Roman used. Game over.
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:38 pm

    Perhaps a good comparison would be plate being a tank, to a Katana being a modern assault rifle. The modern assault rifle is very well designed, but that doesn't mean it would defeat a tank from twenty years ago. Because that isn't what it is designed for.
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Abiathar82 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:08 am

    I love forum rants happy. Everyone read page one and then jump to page 5. You will be like "What the F#(K just happened , was I redirected to another thread? Why are we talking about katanas now and for god sakes what does the bloody Pendant do?"

    But to add to the rant , as it has been stated many times already. Katanas would but completely useless against almost any heavy armor in game and at best would just stun the target for a second if there was enough force behind the swing.

    Also if we are going for realism in game the Stone or Havels armor should basically make you god against another other than GSs , GAs and Great Clubs , possibbly maces. Everything else would just bounce off causing no damage what so ever. But lets face it none of the damage in game is realistic. A backstab from a dagger does more than a backstab from a GS? Really? Or the fact the 2 Handed attack from any heavy weapon does less than a backstab. Fairly certain a direct hit form a Great Club would kill , just from the amount of force being applied to your body.

    Anyway spears are underrated and effective/cheap , however you want to look at it.


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:30 am

    You guys made SOOOOOO much more out of a simple statement than was ever intended or necessary. This whole thing is pretty asinine. We had been discussing how the Katanas are widely used, followed by the fact that they're widely used because From made them decent weapons, and I simply pointed out that that fact has real world relevance because Japanese technology was further ahead then most other technology at the time. I wasn't referring to technique, wasn't referring to skill, or how other weapons are used or any number of the infinite possibilities of combinations you guys seem to want to interpret it as. I quite simply meant that the techniques of steel folding at the time were a great technological advance in weaponry, making the katana a revolutionary weapon. Just to clarify even more I'd agree that a lot of weapons are used tactically in ways that would be superior to someone wielding a katana. However I'd still say that the technology inherent in crafting a katana outweighs the technology necessary to craft a spear. A weapon essentially used since the stone age.Yes, it's a silly observation, followed by a silly analogy. Evidently so silly that the misinterpretation of it has been elevated to a level I'd equate to a high art. In no way worth a full page of arguing, and I'd venture to say definitely not worth calling me ignorant. I appreciate it just as much too. Thanks.


    Last edited by PlasticandRage on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:52 am; edited 5 times in total


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:34 am

    To be fair he didn't say you were ignorant, he said that comparison was.
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:37 am

    Semantics. Some word choice denotes insulting tones. I don't appreciate it either way. Especially considering I didn't intend to argue against the relevance of things that are suddenly being taken issue with enough to defend, and stated that clearly as soon as they started to be defended.


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by PwnasauresRex on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:41 am

    Aznul wrote:Just noticing that for weapon recommendations, nobody seems to have mentioned spears so far. I have been playing entirely offline, but I have found spears to be one of my favorite types of weapon. Why does it seem that they are so rarely used?

    I like how this thread got way off-topic from the OP's original question. Even though I'm pretty sure it was answered early on in the thread. :roll:


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:43 am

    Technically in ways we are talking about how over rated some weapons are. Which would explain some reason as to why less people use spears.
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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by PwnasauresRex on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:48 am

    You have a valid point. I still think it's funny that a whole rant over medieval technology was formed over a simple question


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Onion Knight on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:52 am

    In fact it went off-topic from the beginning, from spears to pvp in Dark Souls all the way to Feudal Japan in one thread.
    More news at 7.


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Hatsune Miku on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:59 am

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    PlasticandRage wrote:Well skill and tactical usage are universal. I just mean as far as construction is concerned katanas are superior weapons to most weapons built in other places during that period.

    Like from a technological standpoint using a broadsword to fight a guy with a katana is like using a musket to fight a guy with a machine gun

    Such a comparison is asinine and flagrantly ignorant. Even the single best-made katana that ever existed in history couldn't slash through a standard piece of armor worn by a Greek soldier 1000+ years before it was made. That leaves piercing, where they really weren't superior to any other sword and strictly inferior to spears on a battle line. This "machine gun to musket" nonsense is utterly ridiculous :p.

    Spears ruled organized melee combat between armored soldiers until guns obsoleted them. Spears, ironically considering this thread, are the single most underrated weapon in video game history. It's a GOOD thing that this game gives them some actual advantages.

    Katanas were only "great" vs people not wearing armor. Vs people wearing it and fighting with even a mild amount of military skill, katanas were just another sword. More durable thanks to superior metal made in later times, but nevertheless no more capable of defeating armor or especially shields than any other piercing weapon made of the entirety of pre-gunpowder military history. You'd have been equally or more (probably more) likely to kill an armored guy with a shield bash or a blunt instrument than a katana...and smaller, more specialized swords are better at getting around a shield + into nooks in armor.

    In short, katanas are painfully overrated in history. Can you name one seriously successful army that used them as a primary weapon to conquer another country?

    Now, compare that success rate to spears, or even those "inferior" western short swords the Roman used. Game over.

    I laughed at this peice of false information.

    Katanas are super effective against leather armor; And katanas are still super effective against early bronze armor, as long as it's thrusted into the armor.

    Check out this video.



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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:10 am

    See that? R. Lee Ermey and Vinyl agree with me.


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    Re: Spears anyone?

    Post by Hatsune Miku on Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:11 am

    PlasticandRage wrote:See that? R. Lee Ermey agrees with me.

    I agree with you to man.


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