The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

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    The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Gazman0169 on Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:28 pm

    I'm not sure if anyone else has picked up on this, but being bored at work I suddenly got to thinking that Quelana (the mother of pyromancy) is in all likelihood dead by the time the player reaches her brother Ceaseless Discharge in Lost Izalith, given that Ceaseless is standing guard over a dead body wearing her clothes, and only becomes hostile towards the player after he/she tries to take possession of them, which would appear to indicate that he has an emotional attachment to the corpse. This would mean that the player jumps forward in time every time he/she travels to Lost Izalith from the Great Swamp, and vice versa.

    I also believe that there is a strong likelihood that Quelana's star pupil Salaman, is in fact the outlander Xanthous King Jeremiah. Quelana merely says that Salaman was 'engulfed by the flame, and burned', but for me the big tell here is that Xanthous uses Chaos pyromancies, which are only sold by Quelana in the game. So from this one could easily surmise that what Quelana really means when she says 'he was engulfed by the flame, and burned' is that when she taught him Chaos pyromancies he was so overcome by the power that they afforded him that he went a bit loco, and from there on in went about referring to himself as a 'King'.

    Perhaps this power even lead Salaman to take on the deities in Anor Londo, which could help to explain how he has ended up in the Painted World.

    Just a thought. big grin
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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:35 pm

    There were 7? I think daughters of the chaos witch though. Just because there's a body wearing those clothes doesn't necessarily mean they're both Quelana.

    I've never heard the Xanthous Salaman connection before though. That's interesting. At the very least his chaos pyro connects him to the covenant.

    Miyazaki actually said in an interview that Ceaseless was the only brother to the daughters of chaos, and that's what he became when he came into contact with the flame of chaos. According to the interview he's in eternal pain from standing in/oozing lava forever, and the only reprieve he gets is being able to watch over the body of his fallen sister. I can link you a translation of that interview I found if you want Gaz.

    I actually think he's a much sadder boss than the more popular Sif. He's essentially an eternally tormented little boy. Look at Ceaseless's face the next time you're down there before you pick up the armor set. He's got a look of such anguish. Then along comes the chosen undead and basically ransacks the remains of his family right in front of him. No wonder he tries to smush you


    Last edited by PlasticandRage on Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:37 pm

    As a metaphor, the "king" bit logically works to represent someone who has let power engulf them. You see a lot of symbolism of fallen kings and heroes in this game, mostly people who let power or arrogance cloud their judgement (Artorias, King Allant, etc). I think this seems like a pretty sound theory. Every time she tells that story about Salaman, it piques my curiosity.
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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Shindori on Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:38 pm

    I thought Ceaseless was a brother to Quelaag, quelaan and quelana... then there's the one in front of the bed of chaos door and finally that one he watches over. That makes 5 sister + bed of chaos being the mother. Isnt he brother and son, not brother and uncle?

    Also, the chaos pyromancies he uses are, if im correct, chaos flame whip and chaos storm, which are a) found in lost izalith and b) acquired by leveling up the covenant, so im sure he has no connections with quelana.

    Sorry if i bursted your bubble there ^_^;


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:43 pm

    Has anyone ever looked up the etymology of the words xanthous? or maybe Salaman? Im going to get on that right now I think


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:44 pm

    Apparently Xanthous is Greek for Yellow, and has connotations to autumn. Which I guess doesn't help


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Shindori on Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:58 pm

    Still, its a nice details to know what Xanthous means xD


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Gazman0169 on Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:45 pm

    @PlasticandRage- The description of the Gold Hemmed Set is the give away here. "Worn by the witch Quelana of Izalith, mother of pyromancy and Daughter of Chaos. She wore this gold-hemmed black set before even the Age of Fire, and it offer strong resistance versus fire, poison, and other perils."

    @Shindori- Hardly, if anything you may have inadvertently added strength to my argument, as it is inconceivable that a person corrupted by the power of Chaos claiming to be a 'King' would not then use this knowledge to try to create more powerful Chaos pyromancies. The fact that they are Chaos pyromancies would appear to indicate that he is in some way tied-in to the Chaos covenant, and given that there is nothing to say that Quelana had any pupils other than Salaman it is reasonable to suggest that both he and Xanthous are one of the same.

    Now it's time to go even more over the top. What if Ceaseless is the future self of Salaman/Xanthous, the being that he eventually evolves into, and that when they speak of his birth they are in fact referring to the moment when Salaman was 'engulfed by the flame, and burned', which put him on the road to eventually becoming the Boss that we have come to know as Ceaseless Discharge. There's nothing to say that Ceaseless is a blood relation of the Witch or the Daughters of Chaos, and so when they refer to him as being a 'brother' they may in fact be referring to his lifelong standing as a member of the Chaos convenant, all be it one who lost his way at some point, but eventually came back to the fold to stand guard over the body of his one time mentor, Quelana. Maybe this is the penance that he has to serve for going astray?
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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Argetlam350 on Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:55 pm

    I guess you can say that there is a time jump between The Swamp and Lost Izalith, I personally don't so I feel Quelana and the dead body that Ceaseless watches are two entirely different people. To each there own though.



    However I have to disagree with the Ceasless Dischage being King Xanthous. The biggest thing against this thoery is that King Xanthous's body is found in the Painted World of Ariams thus meaning he died there and could not of become Ceasless Dischage nor could he be Salaman in your theory then.

    Salaman beaing Ceaseless now. Meh I don't think so, I feel when they say brother then mean by blood and not lifelong standing but again to each there own.


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:59 pm

    One of her other sisters, the one who guards the gate to the bed of chaos, wears them also. Again I'd argue just because it says Quelana wears them, which clearly she does, doesn't necessarily mean that body is Quelana's. I just feel like the simplest answer is usually the best one. 7 sisters, evidence that more than one wears the same stuff, multiple bodies present in multiple places at the same time = multiple people who happen to wear the same thing.

    Here's that link BTW, in case anyone's interested. I posted it in another thread a couple of weeks ago but because the conversation had pretty much played itself out already I think most people missed it. It's definitely worth a read for lore hunters.
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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Gazman0169 on Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:06 pm

    @Argetlam350- I have an answer for that to. Perhaps the body that we see in the Painted World is a mere shell, a spent pupa if you will, and Ceaseless was the being that emerged from it?

    @PlasticandRage- I'm sorry I just don't buy it. The wording clearly shows that this is the garb worn by Quelana by saying- "Worn by...",and "She wore this...".

    At the end of the day this is all just as likely as it is unlikely, and all I'm doing is surmising what may be.


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:26 am

    So whose the one guarding the bed of chaos? They can't all be Quelana


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by BartholomewWenceslas on Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:10 am

    I find the King Jerimiah connection to be a very good one. As was said, he uses chaos firestorm, which clearly connects him to the Servants of Chaos. One interesting thing I've heard about Ceaseless Discharge was that he was born with lava coming out of his pores, so the witches of Izalith crafted a ring, the orange charred ring, to protect him from the pain, but then he dropped the ring and a demon, the centipede demon, was created. Mind you, that has no factual backing, but I thought it was interesting


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Gazman0169 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:42 am

    @PlasticandRage- What makes you think that the Daughter we encounter just before the BoC Fog Door is Quelana? :suspect: When in the swamp Quelana enlists the players help to end the suffering of her mother and her sister's by killing the BoC, and so unless she has had a dramatic change of mind from then until the time you reach the entrance to her mother's lair I think it is safe to say that it is not her, but is rather one of the other Daughters.

    @BartholomewWenceslas- I think I see where you're coming from in this, and I agree it is a pretty big stretch to consider Ceaseless to be the future self of Salaman/Xanthous (I'm having a hard enough time convincing myself), but you've got to admit it would be one heck of a plot twist if it did turn out to be true. big grin The only account we have of Ceaseless's painful birth comes from the description we have of the Orange Charred Ring (as alluded to by your good self), and this appears to either suggest that the Witch is a fire entity or that her experiments with Chaos caused her to give birth to a deformed child (what else would cause lava to come out of her baby's pores?), or that Ceaseless was created sometime after the Witch created the BoC. The latter backs up my claims that he is the future self of Salaman/Xanthous, but could just as easily be an indication that he was the offspring of the union between the Witch and the BoC, who in the game appear to be two completely different entities (the fiery being and the bug) existing in the same area/space. What can be certain is that there are far more questions than answers here, and so it's all pure speculation.

    Edited to now include-

    @PlasticandRage- Having just re-read one of your earlier posts here I now see where you're coming from when you talk about Ceaseless, and agree that the most likely explanation for him being the way that he is is that a childhood accident (him touching the Chaos flame) caused him to turn out this way. I also agree that his story is way more tragic and heart wrentching than Sifs, you only have to look at the expression on his face to see the torment he is in, and so would suggest that killing him is in fact a mercy on the players part.
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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:17 am

    I don't think she is Quelana. I think she's Quelana's sister. The one in front of the BoC gate I mean. I'm trying to prove a point. It seems like you're suggesting that because these robes say they're worn by Quelana, then the body they're found on must be Quelana, so I'm suggesting, contrary to the evidence, that the woman standing outside the fog gate must also then be Quelana. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't think the claim you're making is more well founded then the claims that have already been made about that body, being that it's one of Quelana's other sisters. The fact that we know for sure that several of these robes exist, and are worn by more than one Daughter of Chaos, says to me that they all wear them. At least the one's that are still human enough to fit into them. The way I interpret the robes description is "As worn by Quelana the Chaos Witch." I mean people buy/wear clothing all the time with people's names on them. Doesn't necessarily mean those clothes belong to the people. You don't buy a pair of Air Jordans and assume that Micheal Jordan wore them personally.


    Here, watch this lore video Gaz. http://youtu.be/eRbZVx6SuOE
    This is the version of that lore that I happen to subscribe to. I think it makes the most sense based on all the evidence the game provides.


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Gazman0169 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:36 am

    @RageandPlastic- Oh, I misread what you typed there, and so got the wrong end of the stick. I also agree that this appears to be the standard garb for the Daughter's, but I'm still convinced that the body by Ceaseless is Quelana as the wording of the description of the Gold-hemmed Set appears to indicate it as being so, and knowing that the timelines are severely distorted throughout the game it is easy to surmise that this is what has become of her since our initial encounter in the Swamp. I'm probably not going to convince you to change your mind on this, and you are not likely to be able to change mine (I'm a stubborn old goat at the best of times! lol ) Let's agree to disagree, and leave it at that. twisted


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:41 am

    Did you watch the video I linked? He makes some points that are awfully hard to dispute.

    I mean you can believe whatever you like. That's part of the beauty of this game IMO. It encourages massive amounts of speculation at every turn, and there isn't/will never really be a concrete answer as to whose right and whose wrong. That is unless Miyazaki decides to do more explaining. I'm just trying to show you why I personally don't think this particular opinion is accurate. At least not more accurate than other ways I've seen it presented. Although, as I said before, I think you bring up a great point about Xanthous that I'd never considered before.


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Gazman0169 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:17 am

    I have, but I'm still not fully convinced that the body is the seventh Daughter. Simply because there was no reason for the seventh Daughter to be sacrificed, and if the body is her then wouldn't the description read "Worn by one of the Daughters of Chaos...", or "Worn by the seventh Daughter of Chaos...", but as you know it reads "Worn by the witch Quelana of Izalith, mother of pyromancy and Daughter of Chaos. She wore this gold-hemmed black set before even the Age of Fire, and it offer strong resistance versus fire, poison, and other perils.", which is a pretty strong indication that this is in fact the body of Quelana and not the missing seventh Daughter. There is also nothing to say that the two orbs at the base of the Bed of Chaos were at one time Daughters, but if they were perhaps the missing seventh Daughter is the fiery being that emerges from the Bed as the two sisters at it's base are killed, or she may even be the firey orb that surrounds the Witch at the base. Either way this is all speculation on our part, we'll probably never know the real truth.

    As for Xanthous, I am now fully convinced that Salaman and he are one of the same.

    I think it is also a given that Kirk is a member of the Chaos covenant, and is doing what he does out of love for the Fair Lady. Perhaps the two were an item at one time?

    I know one thing, having taken the time to delve deeper into this story I don't half feel like a right ol sh.., knowing that they've all fallen by my hand many times over in the past. :evil:

    I'll just have to console myself in the knowledge that they're no longer suffering, and what I did was a mercy! twisted


    Last edited by Gazman0169 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:38 am; edited 4 times in total
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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Automancer on Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:29 am

    I know that Miyazaki said that Ceaseless is the brother of the Daughters of Chaos but here's something i'd like to bring out. Is the Centipede Demon related? The only thing i have for this theory comes from the Charred Ring which states that the ring was given to him by his sisters. Any thoughts on this?


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Gazman0169 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:38 am

    I don't think so, and more inclined to believe that when the ring fell into the lava it's power caused the Centipede Demon to be born.


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Automancer on Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:56 am

    Hmm, never thought about it that way, sounds very plausible. Not sure if you feel the same way but i think those two glowing orbs that are binding the BoC are 2 more sisters.


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Gazman0169 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:10 am

    Not sure, it could be that there may actually be three Daughters present in the BoC lair, the first two being the orbs that hold the arms of the fiery being down, and the third being the layer of fire that covers the Witch, but the lore on this is so sketchy that we will never really know for sure.


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Shkar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:07 am

    Gazman0169 wrote:Not sure, it could be that there may actually be three Daughters present in the BoC lair, the first two being the orbs that hold the arms of the fiery being down, and the third being the layer of fire that covers the Witch, but the lore on this is so sketchy that we will never really know for sure.

    That would make 8 daughters.

    Quelana, the Pyromancy Instructor.
    Quelaag and Quelaan, the spider women.
    The one outside BoC.
    The two orbs.
    The "sacrificed" one.

    Doesn't leave room for a third one.


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Gazman0169 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:31 am

    No, if you read my earlier posts you will see that I do not believe that the body near Ceaseless is a sacrificed one, but is in fact the body of Quelana sometime in the future.


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    Re: The Daughters of Chaos Lore (a little theory of mine)...

    Post by Shkar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:35 am

    Quite frankly, I think that the "time distortion" argument isn't effective in lore arguments, as there is zero in-game reference to actual time distortion in any way other than your life being "looped."

    So I disagree with your theory, but that doesn't mean that you can't enjoy it all you want happy


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