Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

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    Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by Shkar on Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:59 am

    Yep, that's it. Kaathe was lying to darkwraiths the entire time, about everything.

    The Pygmy (assumed to be Manus)was not against the other gods; he was on their side, or at least neutral. Proof: he was buried, and a seemingly decent burial at that. That is not the kind of thing one does for their greatest enemy.

    Now, it's pretty clear why things went to crap in Oolacile. There are several mentions of a serpent (Kalamete, Frampt, Kaathe, etc.) leading the people of Oolacile to defiling the grave of Manus. So, serpent leads people to "accept" the dark (albeit unknowingly), and the entire kingdom burns. Certainly makes it hard to believe the serpents now, doesn't it?

    Now, as I pointed out, the Pygmy was allied with the lords, not against them. Yet even Gough quotes the pygmy as saying, "the flames will fade and only dark will remain." Now, why would the side with a vested interest in keeping the flame alive trust their "enemy"? Answer: they wouldn't. They use his phrase because they trusted their ally; Kaathe uses it to try to mislead the player to choosing darkness by claiming it is your "destiny".

    Now, Manus went crazy because hos grave was defiled and his humanity went wild. We also know that his pendant went missing and was broken, which is why he goes after you and does what he does. There is absolutely no way these are unrelated. It seems probable that the "defiling" that occurred was actually the taking and/or breaking of his pendant.And this being, driven past sanity by raw humanity, "eternally seeks" his precious pendant. Sounds to me like instinct, and no amount of fond memories creates that kind of instinct.

    Rather, it seems as if the pendant had some kind of magical effect on Manus. Indeed, we see that it has a power inside (incidentally, we know the power is there, despite it saying that men of this time can't sense it). We also know that without it, his humanity went wild. We can then reason that his humanity went wild because the pendant was removed/broken, implying that the pendant kept his humanity under control.

    Now, the rest of y thoughts will be in bullets instead of explained. At least, for now.

    1. Humanity is lethal. It corrupts the hell out of Artorias, and we see that the humanity spirits can kill just by touching you. Seems like humanity clashes with normal life/souls.

    2. The Primordial Serpents live in the Abyss, but one of "them" tricked the Oolacilians into defiling Manus' grave, creating the Abyss. Now, unless they moved in later, it seems to me that it might have been Kalamete who tricked them. Kalamete certainly seems to have some kind of connection given his dark fire, but it seems stronger now.

    3. The area where you fight Kalamete is the area where the hydra is in the present. Obviously the ground gave out at some point to form a lake. Now, we know there is a giant cavern under the area. Now, was it a natural collapse, or was it done to seal off the abyss like in New Londo?


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    Re: Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:23 pm

    The broken pendant is also made out of stone, which I'm betting it used to be part of an Stone Arch Tree. Stone Arch Trees hold a lot of magical powers and it could have had some sort of spell on it to help Manus keep tabs on his sanity while holding the Dark Soul/Large amounts of Humanity. If that's the case it would be the first real piece of a Stone Arch Tree that you (the player character) hold in game (maybe why men of our time cannot understand it's power?)

    Something I've recently discovered is the area right before you fight the chained prisoner... You know with the 2 sorcerers and like 4 crazed Oolicilians. Right before you go in to face the chained prisoner look to the left and right... It looks like gigantic puddles of black tar. It got me to thinking about the movie Prometheus (highly recommend it's a great movie). Just another quick mention too is why are all the statues with the catalysts heads missing?

    So his humanity went wild and spread this black/blue goo everywhere. It corrupts everything similar to acid, but it also seems to mutate individuals when they come into close contact to it. I also want to point out the words Primordial and Primeval. Primordial seems to insinuate that it comes before Primeval, it also insinuates that Primordial is in some way a descendant... This goo got me to thinking... it comes from the Abyss, from the Dark they came? You can see where I'm going with that but I do not want to derail your topic =).

    I think Kaathe is most def one of our biggest enemies in game... But what if Frampt was the cause of the defiling of the grave of Manus? He could have been trying to gain access to the Dark Soul to offer it to the First Flame and the crap hit the fan... Just a thought there is no real proof either way lol.


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    Re: Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by Shkar on Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:26 pm

    Deathsitexxi wrote:The broken pendant is also made out of stone, which I'm betting it used to be part of an Stone Arch Tree. Stone Arch Trees hold a lot of magical powers and it could have had some sort of spell on it to help Manus keep tabs on his sanity while holding the Dark Soul/Large amounts of Humanity. If that's the case it would be the first real piece of a Stone Arch Tree that you (the player character) hold in game (maybe why men of our time cannot understand it's power?)

    Something I've recently discovered is the area right before you fight the chained prisoner... You know with the 2 sorcerers and like 4 crazed Oolicilians. Right before you go in to face the chained prisoner look to the left and right... It looks like gigantic puddles of black tar. It got me to thinking about the movie Prometheus (highly recommend it's a great movie). Just another quick mention too is why are all the statues with the catalysts heads missing?

    So his humanity went wild and spread this black/blue goo everywhere. It corrupts everything similar to acid, but it also seems to mutate individuals when they come into close contact to it. I also want to point out the words Primordial and Primeval. Primordial seems to insinuate that it comes before Primeval, it also insinuates that Primordial is in some way a descendant... This goo got me to thinking... it comes from the Abyss, from the Dark they came? You can see where I'm going with that but I do not want to derail your topic =).

    I think Kaathe is most def one of our biggest enemies in game... But what if Frampt was the cause of the defiling of the grave of Manus? He could have been trying to gain access to the Dark Soul to offer it to the First Flame and the crap hit the fan... Just a thought there is no real proof either way lol.

    Kaathe would have had no reason to want to sacrifice anything to the flame, if we take him at his word. Gwyn is still around, so he hasn't linked the flame. So it hasn't started to die again yet.


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    Re: Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by Buggy Virus on Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:47 am

    We're hitting this realization now?

    The primordial serpents were never gunning for the player in anyway. Even the dark lord ending gives no relief, as the curse of the undead is still under way and hollow undead are slowly encroaching over the entire continent of the living. And although keeping the flames going helps the gods, it also aids undead in not going hollow, this is why as the flame went out so many undead cities (burg, New Londo) fell apart and are filled with hollows. IMO

    But yes, the DLC really confirms this point, nice post getting it all out there. Could someone quickly give the higher evidence about manus being the pygmy, cause it makes sense on a basic level, but I want to see if anyone has a little more proof.


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    Re: Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by Rudmed on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:20 pm

    I thought before humans (primeval man) was the reason why Manus was the pygmy? Not to mention if he really wanted the pendant he could have killed you the first time he grabbed you, but choose not to.


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    Re: Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by samster628 on Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:36 pm

    Shikar the title of the post is the biggest fact EVER. Its clear he is the evil one as he is the only serpent with the motive plus we know he did it again in new londo.
    I do not agree that the pigmy was allied with the gods but i dont think he was their enamy ether. He was neutril but created humans from hollows via humanity - fragments of his soul. i think they came alive when his soul somehow went wild and i agree with what death(etc cant remember) said about the stone pendant.


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    Re: Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by User on Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:51 pm

    I think it was already speculated that Kaathe was a liar.
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    Re: Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:07 pm

    I never had to speculate, I could have told you that a week after launch. The gods lie too.


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    Re: Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by Rudmed on Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:47 pm

    The real secret ending is the part where you just abandon your quest and pvp.


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    Re: Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by Astardbay on Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:09 pm

    It's honestly all based on perception. All the characters in the game have their own motives, as everyone does. Even liars can tell the truth. The character you play will be manipulated by almost everyone(except Solaire haha, also possibly the Pygmy)but you just have to sort the lies from the truth, both Kaathe & Frampt have their points, but they're both too extreme in their visions. If you do what either of them say you either sacrifice yourself to only temporarily fix the problem of the undead, or lead to the dark age, which is also not truly fixing the problem.

    They say time constantly fades in & out in Lordran, what if every player who chooses to link the fire or walk away is just fixing the problem temporarily, & every player who chooses that option is just prolonging a age long struggle between the gods, humanity kept subservient to a never ending cycle where there is either temporary peace or temporary anarchy & chaos. But someone will eventually have to fix the problem. The true chosen undead, could be the first-born, or maybe the true son of the Pygmy...
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    Re: Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:23 pm

    Thats why I side with the gods, can't fix the problem but can side with the people who arn't hellbent on murdering everyone.

    @rumed lol.


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    Re: Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by Shkar on Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:45 am

    Allow me to reiterate. The title was meant as a joke against everyone who thinks the age of darkness is the "good" ending. It's obvious, undoubtedly so, that Kaathe does NOT have the best interests of humanity in mind.


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    Re: Kaathe is a LIAR! (AotA analysis)

    Post by samster628 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:24 pm

    Well said shikar. But i do think the gods are the best ending. the curse of the undead will be temperary lifted allowing at least some good. The dark ending on the other hand basically opens the floodgates for the abyss to destroy everythink. Another point remember how if you pick the dark lord ending there are loads of other serpents. I think they are creatures of the abyss who want to take over the world! (bar frampt who went rouge). Well not quite like that but think about it they are massive. how could they grow like that natrually.


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