The Undead Church

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    Elite Knight
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    The Undead Church

    Post by Elite Knight on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:46 pm

    So, I did a bit of sightseeing in the Undead Burg's church. I looked around, peered through my binoculars, took in details, really got a scope of the place.

    Then I noticed: Pews, and an altar, and a statue behind said altar of a woman holding an infant. Also, the corpse, possibly of a Fire Keeper. I also noticed, to the left and right of the statue, two murals depicting the war with the Everlasting Dragons, whose significance could be great or lesser.

    However, I noticed this altar with the corpse laying atop it. It occurred to me that this church was probably a place of Undead sacrifice. Sacrifice to who? Well, taking this in, I mosey on down by way of elevator to the Firelink Shrine, inside the temple where we can find Kingseeker Frampt. And at the back of this area, I see a statue, bearing the same features.

    It has been speculated that this statue is of the mother of the Lord of Sunlight himself, carrying the soon-to-be warlord who conquered the Everlasting Dragons.

    Returning to the Church, I look at the altar. This had to be a sacrifice, to Gwyn. But why?

    It is learned that Undead sacrifices were made to fuel the bonfires, but why make a ceremony of it in the Church? Maybe this sacrifice wasn't made to fuel a bonfire? Maybe these rituals were held in the Church, audience waiting in the pews, for a whole different reason, considering we find a Fire Keeper's soul on this corpse, so it wouldn't make sense to sacrifice them to fuel a bonfire.

    Along the walls I see statues of women draped in robes, wearing the helmets of warriors, carrying staves that cradled small flames. It occurred to me that the Undead Church was a place of sacrificial ceremonies. But ceremonies for what? Were these sacrifices to appease the gods? A sacrifice to the good health of the newborn god?

    The reasoning behind it is lost on me, but the Undead Church was definitely a place of sacrificial worship, as can be witnessed in many other religious ceremonies. But what are they for?

    This may not be a new concept to anyone, but it just struck me as interesting. This could be the least bit insignificant or it could be a big deal. I just wanted to contribute to the lore, and this seemed like a nice, small step to take. Feel free to share thoughts. happy


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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Rarayn on Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:46 pm

    The Channeller in the area, an agent of Seath the Scaleless, probably killed her for experimental purposes. There's another Fire Keeper corpse in a cell in the Duke's Archives, so it seems Seath uses them for something.

    The Fire Keeper in question was most likely originally the Firekeeper of the bonfire in the old Undead Church.
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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Elite Knight on Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:12 am

    Makes sense.

    I'm interested in what these experiments could be. What does Seath have to gain from experimenting on mortals?


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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by DoughGuy on Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:31 am

    Dont quote me on this but I think the church is one of velka. I know there was going to be a velka covenant in the church which made it hers, but now thats been removed I dont know if it is anymore.


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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:19 am

    Just take a look at those statues on the left and right again. The staves they are holding are the same as the staff the Maiden in Black is using in Demon's Souls. What did she use her staff for? Lighting the candles around the nexus.In a sense she was the Fire Keeper for the Nexus. This church is more than likely a place where maidens were turned into Fire Keepers. We know they are all women and can choose or be forced to become Fire Keepers by the Darkmoon Knightess dialogues. In addition, once her Undead mission has failed the Maiden in white shows up at this alter. I Dark Handed her a few days ago and ended up sucking 13-14 humanity from her... Seems she was on her way to becoming a Fire Keeper to me....

    The two murals on the left and right of the statue don't look like dragon war references to me but I could be wrong. I see 2 goats, 1 lion and a man offering up an orb (pendent, or soul I can't tell). However, I do find it interesting that the 2 goats, one could be male and one could be female (1 bull, 1 female) Capra and Tartrus (reference Male Undead Merchant dialogue)? and then the Lion looks a lot like the Sanctuary Guardian (referencing it's soul says it's a demon).. So who wold the man be? Either way it seems they are paying offerings to the statue which could in fact be Lord Gwyn as you say.

    I think Dough is right in the sense that this Undead Church was intended to be Velka's covenant location due to the location of her pardoner on the roof. As for it's original purpose I do not believe Velka was involved.


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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Elite Knight on Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:44 am

    I don't know. I saw dragons. The shapes of their heads looked very draconian to me. But they could be goats, as you say.

    As for the Demon's Souls symbolism, I wouldn't have caught that as I haven't played that yet, so thank you for pointing that out, that adds quite a bit. Also, I do believe this church was intended to be Velka's originally. That being said, could the statues of the women be the followers of Velka, and the statue of the woman holding baby Gwyn be Velka herself (not implying that Velka is Gwyn's mother, just that she had some interaction with the child Lord of Sunlight)?

    I'll be looking around the church some more on the morrow, and see if I cannot dig up something else.


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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Rarayn on Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:00 am

    Deathsitexxi wrote:Just take a look at those statues on the left and right again. The staves they are holding are the same as the staff the Maiden in Black is using in Demon's Souls. What did she use her staff for? Lighting the candles around the nexus.In a sense she was the Fire Keeper for the Nexus. This church is more than likely a place where maidens were turned into Fire Keepers. We know they are all women and can choose or be forced to become Fire Keepers by the Darkmoon Knightess dialogues. In addition, once her Undead mission has failed the Maiden in white shows up at this alter. I Dark Handed her a few days ago and ended up sucking 13-14 humanity from her... Seems she was on her way to becoming a Fire Keeper to me....

    The two murals on the left and right of the statue don't look like dragon war references to me but I could be wrong. I see 2 goats, 1 lion and a man offering up an orb (pendent, or soul I can't tell). However, I do find it interesting that the 2 goats, one could be male and one could be female (1 bull, 1 female) Capra and Tartrus (reference Male Undead Merchant dialogue)? and then the Lion looks a lot like the Sanctuary Guardian (referencing it's soul says it's a demon).. So who wold the man be? Either way it seems they are paying offerings to the statue which could in fact be Lord Gwyn as you say.

    I think Dough is right in the sense that this Undead Church was intended to be Velka's covenant location due to the location of her pardoner on the roof. As for it's original purpose I do not believe Velka was involved.
    Several item descriptions and Lautrec's dialogue insinuates that holy maidens, saints etc. Also have ridiculous amounts of humanity. Presumably, the more "pure" you are, the more humanity you have.

    Lautrec of Carim wrote:Maiden Thorolund and her followers recently arrived in this land,
    but she became stranded deep below the Catacombs.
    Her followers either fled, or were reduced to Hollows… Leaving Maiden Thorolund all alone.
    Not a bad tip, huh? A nubile cleric would be replete with humanity…


    Dark Hand Descriptioni wrote:The Darkwraiths, incited by Kaathe, use the
    power of the dark soul to absorb humanity, an
    art shared by this weapon, which also acts as
    a special shield. The ancients, particularly,
    could sap the humanity of even a replete
    saint in the blink of an eye.

    Doesn't disprove your theory, but I just wanted to throw that out there.
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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:33 pm

    That's true Rarayn and thank you for the points of reference =) I love it when people back up what they are saying with evidence. Another thing I forgot to mention is that the Maiden in white is wearing the same get-up as the Ash Maiden in Firelink Shrine (sacrificial robes?) that doesn't necessarily mean she was going to become a Fire Keeper though; however, the Ash Maiden is from Astora and Maiden in White is from Thorolund...same robes across the land? Hard to say either way =)


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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Raem on Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:47 pm

    Deathsitexxi wrote:The two murals on the left and right of the statue don't look like dragon war references to me but I could be wrong. I see 2 goats, 1 lion and a man offering up an orb (pendent, or soul I can't tell). However, I do find it interesting that the 2 goats, one could be male and one could be female (1 bull, 1 female) Capra and Tartrus (reference Male Undead Merchant dialogue)? and then the Lion looks a lot like the Sanctuary Guardian (referencing it's soul says it's a demon).. So who wold the man be? Either way it seems they are paying offerings to the statue which could in fact be Lord Gwyn as you say.

    I think Dough is right in the sense that this Undead Church was intended to be Velka's covenant location due to the location of her pardoner on the roof. As for it's original purpose I do not believe Velka was involved.

    In the artbook is a clearer image of the two murals and you are right: 2 goats 1 lion and a man with a cirlce shaped object.
    Also around the altar are some images of birds (probably choraxi) that fly around the corpse.
    In the context of sacrifices we know 2 different kinds of sacrifices: the first to keep the bonfires lit and the others to create a Ring of Sacrifice.
    Note the presence of so many statues depicting women.
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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Elite Knight on Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:43 pm

    Raem wrote:
    Deathsitexxi wrote:The two murals on the left and right of the statue don't look like dragon war references to me but I could be wrong. I see 2 goats, 1 lion and a man offering up an orb (pendent, or soul I can't tell). However, I do find it interesting that the 2 goats, one could be male and one could be female (1 bull, 1 female) Capra and Tartrus (reference Male Undead Merchant dialogue)? and then the Lion looks a lot like the Sanctuary Guardian (referencing it's soul says it's a demon).. So who wold the man be? Either way it seems they are paying offerings to the statue which could in fact be Lord Gwyn as you say.

    I think Dough is right in the sense that this Undead Church was intended to be Velka's covenant location due to the location of her pardoner on the roof. As for it's original purpose I do not believe Velka was involved.

    In the artbook is a clearer image of the two murals and you are right: 2 goats 1 lion and a man with a cirlce shaped object.
    Also around the altar are some images of birds (probably choraxi) that fly around the corpse.
    In the context of sacrifices we know 2 different kinds of sacrifices: the first to keep the bonfires lit and the others to create a Ring of Sacrifice.
    Note the presence of so many statues depicting women.


    I noticed these women, and pondered their purpose; or rather, who they are. Death said they resemble the Maiden in Black, or at least reference her. I, not having played Demon's Souls, can't quite pinpoint what significance that could have. They were interesting, however, and I thought them to be channelers of some sort (not like Seath's Channelers, but possibly not unlike them).


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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Buggy Virus on Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:42 am

    I think it is more likely that the corpse is more akin to how saint's bodies are enshrined in catholic churches/cathedrals, not a sacrifice, but more a relic.


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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Skarectum on Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:47 pm

    Could be of note that there's also a corpse in a barrel, upstairs in the church. I'm not sure what significance that could have, but it sure as hell seems a tad strange.


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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by sinspaw on Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:16 am

    Sorry but, I for one, don't think the corpse is there because its a sacrifice. Don't know why you have to assume that just because the corpse is in an altar. Maybe it's there as a symbol of honour? Plus, whoever was behind this Fire Keeper sacrifice, you'd think they would take her soul no?

    Lautrec, in my view, most likely killed that fire keeper too. It's what he does. That and well, he's imprisoned in just the floor above.
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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Elite Knight on Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:23 pm

    It's not just an assumption, it's a theory. Since undead sacrifice is so common to fuel the bonfires, I was thinking this one was significant to some other event. Of course I thought of other things, but the room itself seems a place as good as any to hold a ritual of such manner. Perhaps the ceremony was interrupted, and the soul went unused.

    These are just my thoughts, given what I have observed. Lautrec could have been the source of this Keeper's demise, but I suspected that this Fire Keeper was long dead before he got there.


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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Skarectum on Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:48 pm

    I think I changed my mind about Lautrec's part in the Fire Keeper's demise after I posted in this thread. I always presumed Seath's Channeller had killed the Fire Keeper, as it otherwise made little sense for him to be there. After hearing Lautrec's dialogue when you free him, on my NG+, I reckon he is out to kill Fire Keepers, and was caught in the act and imprisoned. Seath's Channeller could have just nipped over to kidnap her and found and imprisoned Lautrec. Anyway, that's beside the point.

    I think it is likely that the church is indeed devoted to Velka; Oswald of Carim's position, along with what certainly seems like a sacrificial altar push me towards that. I'm not sure how much information there is on undead sacrifice to fuel the bonfires (unless we're talking about linking the fire) but I can't see sacrifices which would only benefit the undead being made in a church of the Way of White. I'm really not 100% on all the lore, but it seems far more likely to me that, if it is a sacrificial altar, it belongs to the ritual used to create the rings of Sacrifice.


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    Re: The Undead Church

    Post by Shkar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:22 am

    I don't recall hearing any mention of undead being sacrificed to fuel bonfires. Their bones are used, true, but nothing about sacrifices.


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