Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

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    Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:48 pm

    Someone in another thread commented that the DWGR was no good now because the fast roll is quicker. Unless my eyes deceive me, I tend to think the opposite, that the flip gets you out of hot water faster. I tried to solo the Sanctuary Guardian,with a dex build and honestly found that the DWGR gave me more mobility. Anyone ever test this out for themselves?
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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by TheAshenPhantom on Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:50 pm

    Back Lot Basher wrote:Someone in another thread commented that the DWGR was no good now because the fast roll is quicker. Unless my eyes deceive me, I tend to think the opposite, that the flip gets you out of hot water faster. I tried to solo the Sanctuary Guardian,with a dex build and honestly found that the DWGR gave me more mobility. Anyone ever test this out for themselves?

    My game slows down a hell of alot when I face that boss so I don't think I could tell ya. Good luck.


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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:56 pm

    People have tested it, it is not so much about the speed of the roll. The DWGR is better, no doubt about it. It has far more I-frames, and covers more distance then the fast roll.

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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by BloodBlade22 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:58 pm

    I thought they just made it so people at 50% equip couldn't use the ring to gain fast roll/flip at the same time. I assume it must be faster, FROM wouldn't nerf it into oblivion (I assume). Never actually used the thing though so couldn't tell ya.
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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by AzureCrow on Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:02 pm

    I had the same impression, it appears even with the roll speed increase the DWGR is slightly faster than the slowest fast roll. But real advantage it offers is the extra distance the ninja flip covers compared to the standard roll. it may be that they're similar speeds however the fact that your traveling farther give the appearance it's faster.


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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:11 pm

    The distance seems really significant. The irony is, I almost NEVER used that ring before the patch. But I've since started doing more with lightly armored dex builds (especially my dragon build), and I love the movement. First time I tried Manus, I had that ring, and the fight has never been as easy without it.
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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by AzureCrow on Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:29 pm

    Same here I'd used it on heavier builds for pvp but if I needed to dodge I dropped under 25% and never touched it, decided to try it against Kalameet and now it's a must have vs bosses.
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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:35 pm

    One of the most effective builds I have is a 120 Dragon covenant dex toon. With massive health, 40 endurance, and that ring, plus all the stamina buffs I can manage, you can literally become untouchable. Not to mention owning a bow that can absolutely wreck enemies.
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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by AzureCrow on Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:01 pm

    It's very effective at creating space on my sorcerer, the alternate roll gives just enough time and distance to break rhythm with opponents rolls and cast a dark bead or delay a homing soulmass.

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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:12 pm

    i might be the only person who prefers the fast roll to the flip…to me it feels like it has a faster recovery time and with the shorter distance traveled, it makes for a quick escape and counter strike. i also like to stay in my opponent's face and use aggressive melee tactics, only using magic to punish them if they try to run away.
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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:15 pm

    The major difference is the invincibility frames, that is the real reason to use DWGR. Roll speed and distance mean very little compared to its additional I-frames. Have you ever noticed how people using the DWGR can seem to avoid damage much easier by spamming roll?
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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by AzureCrow on Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:37 pm

    I only opt for the DWGR when I need to create space but for melee/ buff toons the attack speed fast roll gives is unparalleled. I've also notice the increased invulnerability the DWGR gives, namely when trying to roll through Kalameet's breath attacks its possible with fast roll but I've ninja flipped from wake up directly into his attacks and back out without staggering. I think it is possible to roll directly through pursuers with the DWGR as well where as fast roll will clip it head on.

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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:47 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:The major difference is the invincibility frames, that is the real reason to use DWGR. Roll speed and distance mean very little compared to its additional I-frames. Have you ever noticed how people using the DWGR can seem to avoid damage much easier by spamming roll?

    i've noticed that it helps other players as they flip through my strikes, but for some reason it has never helped me. more often than not i get "sucked" out of my flip into a backstab. which has never happened to me on a fast roll. even when the flip does work, i find myself to far away to really do anything in retaliation, all the while giving them enough space for a quick heal…of course your mileage will vary, this is just my experience.
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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:55 pm

    but for some reason it has never helped me. more often than not i get "sucked" out of my flip into a backsta

    This is a lagstab...it happens with any roll, you start moving but lag causes the other person to not see the movement yet in their screens, so they backstab you, that's why you see the roll suddenly get interrupted by the BS:

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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:44 pm

    CaligoIllioneus wrote:
    but for some reason it has never helped me. more often than not i get "sucked" out of my flip into a backsta

    This is a lagstab...it happens with any roll, you start moving but lag causes the other person to not see the movement yet in their screens, so they backstab you, that's why you see the roll suddenly get interrupted by the BS:

    you are probably right … but i have only experienced lagstab during/after a flip and i'm not entirely convinced that the two aren't related
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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by vageta31 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:08 pm

    I've done some very extensive testing on all rolls so I can speak definitively about it. Here is what I posted in a Gamefaqs thread about a month ago when people were discussing the DWGR versus normal fast roll.

    There is more to what makes a specific roll animation superior to
    another than just the iframes. Recovery frames and distance traveled are
    also important. Distance is subjective as some prefer the shorter roll
    distance of the fast roll to the long distance of the flip when
    attempting roll BS and such. Recovery time however is probably the most
    important and varies quite a bit between the rolls. Since mid and fat
    aren't what we're talking about we can look at fast and ninja flip.

    Fast Roll: 25% Encumbrance
    iFrames = 13
    Recovery frames = 11
    Full animation = 24

    DWGR Flip: 25% Encumbrance (PTD version)
    iFrames = 15
    Recovery frames = 7
    Full Animation = 22

    Note
    that the iframes are a constant, but the recovery frames change
    depending on your total encumbrance for each specific roll. Having 0
    burden actually drops 4 frames off of your recovery time and increases a
    frame every ~6-7% of burden up until the threshold which then becomes
    medium roll. Since we're all going to shoot for the max burden we'll
    stick with those numbers.

    Based on these numbers alone it's clear
    that the flip is vastly superior as there are more iframes AND less
    recovery frames in an entire animation cycle, not to mention the cycle
    itself is shorter. The ratio of iframes vs recovery frames is the most
    important factor as only ~54% of the fast roll animation is invincible
    whereas 68% of the flip is invincible. Meaning if someone with the DWGR
    is spamming dodge you only have 7 animation frames out of 22 where you
    can hit them while you have 11 during a fast roll. Sure these are small
    time frames, but considering 7 frames is longer than your standard parry
    window you can't downplay the difference.

    Also the distance
    traveled from the DWGR makes it a better dodge overall. Certain attacks
    can last longer than the amount of iframes in a given roll, not to
    mention even the ones that aren't may last long enough so that if your
    roll isn't perfectly timed you will enter the recovery frames before the
    attack is finished which can still cause you to be hit. The DWGR
    distance allows you to completely escape most hit boxes before the
    iframes finish which gives you a better chance of a successful dodge.

    Will
    the DWGR still be worth it with the nerf? That's up the the individual
    and their playstyle, but ultimately it's still superior to the fast roll
    and I wouldn't discount it entirely.


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    Re: Anyone ever test the speed of fast roll vs ninja flip?

    Post by Strudul on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:30 pm

    As above, DWGR does make for a better dodge.

    It was particularly helpful against Artorias. I was more successful with ninja flips than I was with rolls.


    (Going ever so slightly off-topic here)
    At first I refused to use DWGR as I did not want to become reliant on it. However, I don't really have anything that needs to be in my second ring slot (along side Havel's ring).

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