FROM if I needed my hand held I'd be playing CoD!

I don't know about you guys/girls, but the whole point of me playing a Souls game is that I want my gaming skills to be pushed to the point where I am on the verge of having a nervous breakdown, and so I resent it when it is discovered that the Game Developer has programmed virtual 'get out of jail free' cards in the game, as was the case with the Maneater Boss Fog Glitch in Demon's, which now appears to have resurfaced in Dark, rearing it's ugly head by the Manus Boss Fog.

Why FROM, why would you do this?

Both of these Bosses had the potential to be almost God-like, but your actions have made them the easiest Bosses in their respective games.

Luckily with Demon's FROM's meddling ended there, but this has not been the case with Dark, which over the past year or so has seen key elements in the game buffed and nerfed to the point where what we have now is nothing more than a run-of-the-mill RPG, which IMHO has no right to call itself a Souls game.

For me the problem started when Patch 1.04 came on the scene. Sure it fixed a lot of stuff that needed fixing, but did we really need the RoF nerf, and where was the harm in Vendors only selling certain items?

Moving on, I sincerely hope that someone from FROM reads this, and in so doing realises that mistakes have been made. Maybe then when Patch 1.07 comes out we'll be lucky enough to see an end to the Manus Boss Fog Glitch, the RoF and the CRS (amongst others) brought back to their former glory, the Warrior of Sunlight reverting back to an exclusive Members only club, and Venders once again being highly selective when it comes to their respective inventories. But this should only be viewed as a start, because there are a heck of a lot more changes that need to be made in order for Dark to become a Souls game once again.

Now is that really too much to ask?

I understand that the Manus glitch was intentional?

For me it's too much of a coincidence that the exact same 'Glitch' has resurfaced in Dark, when it became so well known in Demon's, and so I cannot see it as being anything but intentional, which really grinds my gears!

As far as I'm concerned anyone who intentionally uses this 'Glitch' to cheese Manus shouldn't be playing Dark, as they clearly do not have what it takes to play a Souls game, which are expected by design to push the player to the absolute limits of his/her abilities and beyond.

I want this game to punish me, I want to be Manus's btch, and I absolutely resent the Game Designer offering us a cheap way out like this, as it will only serve to lesson any un-glitched victories that I may have, by helping to ensure that anyone in the know will now be able to overcome this Boss with the greatest of ease!

Oh and another thing, FROM if you're reading this FFS patch Gwyn to make it nigh on impossible to P&R him. It's bloody ridiculous that the be-all and end-all of all the Bosses can be so easily overcome in the last fight of the game.

You have to remember this game is all about patterns and remembering different tactics, If you look back on your first play-through, you probably got your *** handed to you quite a lot, but now you know boss patterns etc... you find it less challenging.

As for Gwyn being parriable, seems fair to me, since he has little to no tells and is super fast, if you want to know what he could have been just look at Artorias, he is basically Gwyn without the parrying and he is still easy once you know his moves.

I realise that, and part of the sense of achievement comes from recognising these patterns, as this will then lead you to a well-earned victory. My point is there is no point in learning a Boss's pattern if you know how to cheese it, and so a lot of gamers won't, but they'll still get to experience beating the Boss, which is damnright unfair to all of us who choose to fight the Bosses properly. As far as I'm concerned if you cannot beat any of the Boss's without cheating, and let's make no bones about it shooting a Boss through a Fog Door where it can't get at you until it dies is nothing short of cheating, then you have no right experiencing what it's like to have beaten them to begin with, it really is that simple.

As for Gwyn, I totally disagree with you on this. As far as I'm concerned it's not fair, and it's certainly not right, that he should be so easily parried, and him having little to no tells only adds weight to my argument that this is something that needs to be patched. Being the final Boss in the game he should be the hardest of them all, and so beating him should give the player the greatest sense of achievement, but as things stand he is nothing more than a minor obstacle before the end. The first time I beat Gwyn I did so with a +5 Lightning BSS, a Grass Crest Shield, wearing light armour, and using a RoFP and FSR combo. I did not P&R him once (mainly because I did not know how to), yet it was one heck of a fight that went on for an absolute age, and ended with me having a smidgeon of my life left in the game and me being an absolute wreck in the real world. The next time I simply P&R'd him, and ended the fight quite frankly bored without so much as a scratch on me. It doesn't need a genius to work out which of these victories was the sweeter, and so since that time I flatly refuse to P&R Gwyn, even once, as I know that doing so will rob me of the experience of achieving another well earned victory against the Boss of all Bosses.

Well, personally speaking I won't ever be using this glitch. I guess it's good for some players who really want to avoid the fight, but really, where's the fun in that?

I love this boss fight because of how intense it is, so I will not be using it. I do think though that it seems almost intentional that FROM would bring something back that ruined things in Demon Souls. Maybe it was an accident, but I guess we wont know.

Morning WDTPD, I agree, what's the point in buying the game if all you're (not you) going to do is try to avoid the harder fights, it makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Dark Spirit, the speed in which this appears to have been found, along with the fact that it practically mirrors the Demon's 'Glitch', pretty much seals it in my mind that this was not a random occurrence, but was in fact planned by FROM as a means to keep the less-dogged amongst us playing the game longer, which I view as nothing less than a right royal slap in the gob for those of us who choose not to cheat our way through the game.

Yano i see this alot people allways complaining about something, if its not one thing its another, oh god your cheesing urgh your glitching thats SOOOO op....... i normally avoid these topics just because something is there does not mean you have to use it.....so theres a glitch where you can kill manus without fighting him soo what.....dont use it?

Your mentality when it comes to these things is alien to me. If I beat something the hard way DESPITE a cheese-stained hand being extended my way, I feel all the more satisfied with my victory.

Incidentally, I never even tried to parry Gwyn...My strategy might still have been a bit cheap though, since it was mostly just using homing sorcery while hiding behind the pillars to heal/cast. :p

Yes, but the point Billy is that it is not right to cheat, and it's certainly not right that FROM continually programs the same cheat into their games, especially when the vast majority of us are looking for a gaming experience that pushes us to the absolute limits of our abilities, affording us the right at the end to claim that we have risen above it all and have beaten an absolute btch of a game that a lot of gamers would simply give up on, and so you can hardly blame us for resenting it when we find out that anyone in the know can simply cheese their way through it. Call it elitism if you will, but that is what most of us who come to a Souls game are expecting, we're not looking to play a run-of-the-mill RPG, and some of us care enough to resent it when the Developer does stupid things like this. I agree that just because it is there is not an excuse to then go ahead and use it, but the point is it shouldn't be there to begin with, and we have every right to complain about it in the hope that it will eventually be patched, or at the very least will convince FROM not to be so damn disrespectful to it's loyal fanbase in the future.

The vendors change was for me the only good thing about 1.04 . Meant less farming which definitely isn't a bad thing, it takes away from the game experience. But yeah 1.04 messed up the difficulty especially early game by nerfing enemy poise and reducing hp and damage of enemies. All you have to do early game now is *kick* and you've pretty much won.

I've only played since the PC version came out, so could someone give me more details on how shops used to be back before 1.04? I'm curious now.

Rarayn, fair enough.

I on the other hand cannot help but feel a sense of being cheated knowing that there are a lot of gamers out there who have simply not earned the right to see what we've seen, but instead have been fortunate enough to have been given a virtual leg-up by the Game Developer to get there.

Rarayn before Patch 1.04 only certain venders stocked certain items, and some items such as Twinkling titanite could only be found and not brought, which meant that you needed to be frugal when it came to using consummable items, as there was no way of telling if or when you would be able to replenish them.

billy_bayonet wrote:.....so theres a glitch where you can kill manus without fighting him soo what.....dont use it?

Exactly.

Rarayn wrote:I've only played since the PC version came out, so could someone give me more details on how shops used to be back before 1.04? I'm curious now.

From what I can remember:

The Undead Merchant in the Burg didn't sell the Bottomless Box.
Most merchants didn't sell arrows or crossbow bolts. (I believe only Andrei, the Giant Blacksmith, and the Female Undead Merchant did)
The Giant Blacksmith didn't sell Twinkling titanite.
Ingward didn't sell Transient Curses.
Domnhall didn't sell the Master Key.

Also enemies only gave about 50%-60% of the amount of souls they give right now, so managing souls between items and levelling was a much stricter and more limiting process.

argotthar, you're missing the point, aside from it being debatable that it is a Glitch, it simply shouldn't be there to begin with, as it allows everyone in the know to easily overcome one of the hardest Boss's in the game, which for me by association then cheapens any non-glitched victory that I may have.

Gazman0169 wrote:argotthar, you're missing the point, aside from it being debatable that it is a Glitch, it simply shouldn't be there to begin with, as it allows everyone in the know to easily overcome one of the hardest Boss's in the game, which for me by association then cheapens any non-glitched victory that I may have.

Not to sound snarky, but from my viewpoint it would only increase the value of a legitimate victory. Just because now anybody can say "I beat Manus" doesn't mean anybody can say "I beat Manus through my skill at the game." As long as you can claim that then you're still a step ahead of everyone else who relies on cheesing.

What I don't understand is why people are actively searching for glitches and cheats in the
first place!
For example - There was no-way! Anyone just 'stumbled' on the BB Glitch, I'm not buying that.
Or the Dragon Head Glitch for that matter.

Back on topic, It's a real shame people are glitching and cheating to get ahead just to say
"I did it first"

Gazman0169 wrote:argotthar, you're missing the point, aside from it being debatable that it is a Glitch, it simply shouldn't be there to begin with, as it allows everyone in the know to easily overcome one of the hardest Boss's in the game, which for me by association then cheapens any non-glitched victory that I may have.

I agree mate but as always s**t happens and if someone choose easy way out then it's their choice and doesn't affect rest of us in any way (unless the glitch is made on purpose which I strongly disagree).
Nothing can cheap away my victory if I did it the way is meant to be played.

There will always be glitches and people who likes to play that way. That's the reason I agreed with a remark "don't use it".

Reaper, I wish I could say the same, or that this was enough for me, but I can't. As with Demon's before, I approached Dark with the understanding that it being a Souls game very few gamers would be willing or able to make it to the very end, and for me this was the driving force behind my dogged determination to eventually beat the game, but since Patch 1.04 came out it now appears that FROM are determined to keep on dumbing the game down in order to keep the fanbase as high as it possibly can for as long as it possibly can, with the latest insult coming in the form of the supposed Manus Boss Fog 'glitch', which I am now fully convinced is anything but.

For me FROM effectively sold their soul to the Devil when they went about pursuing a fan-base for Dark beyond that of the PS3, as I can guarantee that there is no way the game would of been patched the way it has been if like Demon's before it had remained a PS3 exclusive. That's not to say that I lay any of the blame with my Xbox or PC buds, but is merely to express a belief that by increasing the size of the fanbase FROM have unwillingly opened the game to a lot more gamers who simply do not possess the skills or the dogged determination to overcome a game of this type, and that as they have become the vocal majority we're all now being made to suffer because of it.

Gaz, just dont use the damn glitch you can moan about it til your blue in the face and proberly need to go for a poo, its there get over it dont use it dont coplain!

Billy, you're missing the point, if we don't stand up and complain about things like this then things are never going to change. I have no intention of using the 'glitch', and I would urge everyone reading this not to either, but that doesn't mean to say that things should stop there. Clearly the game is broken, either by chance (which I highly doubt), or by design (I have a hard time believing in coincidences), and FROM need to realise this, so that if/when they release Patch 1.07 they would have done something to fix it.