Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

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    xtal84
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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by xtal84 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:47 am

    OP, you've started a topic, yourself highlighting the word discussion, but what I've read is mostly self reassurance. A few things to address:

    First, what's wrong with a developer seeking outside ideas, be they from peer or commoner? Especially such quality devs as FromSoft; I'm sure they're intelligent enough not to compromise quality to appease some mass (which doesn't exist, frankly). Whatever an "average joe" is, and I'm not sure who that's meant to insult, can surely voice opinions the same as anyone else. Of course they don't have to be accepted, and most won't, but the best ideas will always be considered, that's simply reality. The cream rises.

    Second, you're worried about them "fixing what isn't broken" with Dark Souls, but then what is Dark Souls to Demon's Souls? It's hardly the same, yet at its core shares the most essential values of its predecessor: challenge, trial, punishment, dedication, reward. They can and should change many things in the next Souls game, but I'd have a little faith that they understand what the core values of their work is; the stuff that keeps people coming back. Dark Souls didn't break what Demon's Souls created, but then we have hindsight.

    Take the online experience for example. It's brilliant, more than anything else I've seen, but it can and should be improved. So can covenants. As should the game's token "what the heck does this do?" feature, in DS it was tendency, in DkS it was poise. Improvements can always be made.

    Reality is that people-- consumers-- influence everyone from small time artists to big time corporations. People should be heard. It's not a compromise in integrity to listen to so called idiot average joes: it's a form of discussion. I'm not saying that the desires of many should be controlling artists; I'm saying that we live in a world where new ideas have always been the cornerstone of the development and edification of our cultures.


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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:09 am

    xtal84 wrote:OP, you've started a topic, yourself highlighting the word discussion, but what I've read is mostly self reassurance. A few things to address:

    First, what's wrong with a developer seeking outside ideas, be they from peer or commoner? Especially such quality devs as FromSoft; I'm sure they're intelligent enough not to compromise quality to appease some mass (which doesn't exist, frankly). Whatever an "average joe" is, and I'm not sure who that's meant to insult, can surely voice opinions the same as anyone else. Of course they don't have to be accepted, and most won't, but the best ideas will always be considered, that's simply reality. The cream rises.

    Second, you're worried about them "fixing what isn't broken" with Dark Souls, but then what is Dark Souls to Demon's Souls? It's hardly the same, yet at its core shares the most essential values of its predecessor: challenge, trial, punishment, dedication, reward. They can and should change many things in the next Souls game, but I'd have a little faith that they understand what the core values of their work is; the stuff that keeps people coming back. Dark Souls didn't break what Demon's Souls created, but then we have hindsight.

    Take the online experience for example. It's brilliant, more than anything else I've seen, but it can and should be improved. So can covenants. As should the game's token "what the heck does this do?" feature, in DS it was tendency, in DkS it was poise. Improvements can always be made.

    Reality is that people-- consumers-- influence everyone from small time artists to big time corporations. People should be heard. It's not a compromise in integrity to listen to so called idiot average joes: it's a form of discussion. I'm not saying that the desires of many should be controlling artists; I'm saying that we live in a world where new ideas have always been the cornerstone of the development and edification of our cultures.





    Nothing to argue with there, but up until now I think everybody that has posted was in agreement or supportive of my OP. It was very reassuring.

    You're right that if the next installment is totally revamped but keeps the same principles it could very well be even better. I guess I just really feel that there are only minor issues to address to make DKS any better.

    What we have here is probably a difference in philosophy. Your mindset is probably a bit more modern than mine, always striving to improve and looking to the future. I believe that if you don't have anything nice to say it's best to just be quiet (most of the time), and thus I find it difficult to want to complain about DKS.

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by eminusx on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:38 am

    Dark Souls is very much a Cult in the videogame world, if there were whispers in the corridors, the elephant in the room, or object of affection would be Dark Souls. Despite it being a game with swords, demons and stats, websites far and wide aswell as us die-hard fans, rapturously declare that 'weve never played anything like it, its unique'. . and so it is. .

    . . there is a reason for this and its the one thing From need to be careful to retain in their next installment. The sense of isolation, the desperation, the feeling of dread entering new areas, shield up, the sense of wonder at the masterfully designed world and characters. . . all these are beautifully punctuated by a difficulty that makes you think like you were there, youre not playing a character, you ARE the character, and this feeling permeates every single step. It forces you to pay attention, you notice the intricate detail, you discover the hidden lore, youre constantly watching and exploring. It is the accumulation of these elements that make Dark Souls what it is, if you begin to change one, the balance is altered and it is likely you will destroy the essence or charm that makes DS such a masterpiece. Untimely Invasions, limited npcs, hidden lore, isolated environments, jolly co-operation are absolutely crucial.

    Genius is a word used far too frivolously, but as a senior designer and a gamer of nearly 30 years Dark Souls is perfectly entitled. FROM are likely well aware of what makes Dark Souls unique, why gamers and journalists are so passionate about their game. . . but nothing is perfect, there is always room for some improvements but they must be scrutinised before theyre implemented and they must be sympathetic to those key characteristics that combine to give Dark Souls its unique essence.

    Its important that any new additions arent so enormous as to completely unbalance the game and become the focus, just as the weapons, armour, rings and abilities should be less about a single overpowered item and more about the complimentary and considered combination of them all working together, but tweaks can be made, balance can be addressed and ideas can be introduced.

    Its no good to say average Joe shouldnt be heard, Orson Welles was at one point an average Joe, as was Kurosawa or Tarkovsky, but the vision of a true creative sees beyond superficiality, can recognise a great idea and artfully implement it without jeapordising the integrity of the original. FROM created Dark Souls and im pretty sure they have the ability to look at ideas and critique them wisely while adding content, Dark Souls is their baby, it put them on the map to be fair, and i'd be surprised if they catastrophically dropped the ball in the next game, if they do im pretty sure the sales would suffer hugely. It would be like putting Batman in the worlds best selling 4-door family saloon!









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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by xtal84 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:08 pm

    Thanks for the response, Big Time Master. I may have ruffled a feather or two, so I appreciate the civility in return.

    And eminusx, I very much agree with you.

    Think about this: Dark Souls is precious, yes, and very loved and well regarded. But nothing From does in the future will take away from that. Actually, maybe the only thing that could is a direct sequel to Dark Souls, one which pulls back the curtain.

    This is why they should be permitted to try new things. I would much rather have FromSoft develop a radical take on the Souls series, the aforementioned "core values" staying intact, where they would have an equal chance of success or failure, as opposed to them making Dark Souls 2 (not necessarily in title, but just in what it is...you get the gist) in what essentially amounts to the same game with slightly different parts. They might as well just add on new content indefinitely for Dark Souls. No thank you.

    To the OP again: just keep the following in mind. What you may see as ungrateful, or "entitled" fans telling a developer how to manage their next game is easily mistaken.

    Myself for example, I love Dark Souls. I've only been playing it for 6 months but I absolutely am in love with it, mainly because there is indeed nothing else like it (save Demon's Souls). So when I, or others, say "[x] could be improved in multiplayer" or "they should change the covenant system, maybe in this way," I don't say those things because I've come along, absorbed Dark Souls and thought to myself oh I could do better. I say these things because I care enough to do so. There are a TON of decent, mediocre, below average and downright terrible games out there. I don't muse about how improvements could be made to those games because I do not care.

    The majority of people who take the time to critique are in fact doing so because of their passion, not a sense of entitlement. (Take ENB's recent "Future of the Souls series" vid - he has many gripes, but do you think anyone anywhere admires the Souls games like he does? Not many, I would surmise.)

    I see an argument like yours, and I completely understand it; I LOVE the Souls games, and I want to experience more games like it, hopefully more by FromSoft themselves, and I would be devastated if I turned on [New Souls Game] only to discover it was something completely unrecognizable. But I really don't believe that could happen. FromSoft are in the business of reinvention. I assume they are a very proud development house because of what they have accomplished. But I don't believe they would abandon what has become their heart and soul.

    It takes a bit of overtime and late nights to release the same Call of Duty game each and every year. It takes pride, creativity, passion and open-mindedness to create a masterpiece like Demon's Souls and follow it up with another masterpiece like Dark Souls.


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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:02 pm

    You got me thinking about one of my favorite quotes (a stanza from the only poem I remember from school actually), nothing gold can stay.

    While I would be perfectly happy with simply just more DKS content, maybe a full blown sequel wouldn't be the best thing? Maybe a "spiritual successor" would be the wiser way to continue the Souls journey?

    Nobody can stay champ forever, but the smart guys retire while they are still on top, you know?

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by eminusx on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:09 pm

    BIG TIME MASTER wrote:You got me thinking about one of my favorite quotes (a stanza from the only poem I remember from school actually), nothing gold can stay.

    aaah got me thinking about suitably apt Dark Souls quotes now!!

    mine would have to be:

    In the bleakest depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer
    Albert Camus

    Praise the Sun indeed!!! Praise the Sun


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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:48 pm

    I don't know who said it first or even where I heard it, but:

    Life is suffering and then you die.



    So appropriate.

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by TheAshenPhantom on Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:21 am

    I got a quote, don't know if it's relevance.


    "To judge the true character of a man, Give him power. Only then will we know his true intentions."

    I can't recall who said it.


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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by eminusx on Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:17 am


    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster"

    'When you Gaze long into the Abyss, the abyss also gazes into you"


    Thus spake Friedrich Neitzsche.

    its almost as if the canny existentialist got binned a few times by the 4 Kings!!


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