Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

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    Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:53 am

    I all CAPS'd discussion because I want to make the point that I am throwing my opinion out for the sake of constructive discussion, not criticism. Please take some time to consider my points before you either agree or retaliate, and if you somehow feel offended, stop being so sensitive!

    To the point, a common thread topic on our forums is based around changing/adding/dropping some type of game mechanic to make DKS better/more balanced/perfect. I do enjoy being able to share my ideas and consider others, but I think it is important to remind ourselves that DKS is really, really good. FROM certainly knows what they are doing when it comes to creating a deep and continually rewarding gaming experience, more so than any other game I know of.

    Without going to deep into consumer psychology and ethics, I feel that it is not only completely unfair of the consumer to demand "more, more, more!" but it is also the beginning of a degenerative process that I can only best define as "the perfect is the enemy of the good."

    This means that the desire to elevate something from good to perfect will only destroy what was good in the first place. An easy example of this that we are all familiar with are the lame Hollywood remakes of great movies from decades past. Another example is when you're grilling some steaks, a common noob mistake is to overseason. You figure, "Worchestershire sauce is good, I'll put it on. But hey, this spice rub is tasty as hell also, I'll put it on too, and of course some good ole S&P never hurts either!" You end up with one lousy steak!

    Another example, and I'm going to not use the name so I don't inflame any sensitive types, is a big time RPG released earlier this year that seemingly attempts to do EVERYTHING. You can fight monsters, ride a horse, save the world, destroy everything, build a house, get married, run around naked, go to jail, adopt bratty kids, craft food and potions, chop wood, etc etc etc. It all sounds so impressive, but the reality is that it is all an empty experience. So you adopt some kids and build a house, that should be interesting right? Look at the experience more closely, though, and you might realize that you only really followed some cues and pushed some buttons to reach a meaningless end. While it may have seemed like a vast experience before, after putting in the time to gain the items you are stuck asking yourself, so what? You spent hours collecting certain items and killing monsters to build a certain weapon, and then you finally get it, but nothing has changed. The only satisfaction you have gained is the fleeting satisfaction of "getting" something.

    The real genius in DKS is in it's simplicity. The fox knows many tricks, the hedgehog knows one good one, you know? Sure FROM could throw in a few more bells and whistles and still keep the core essence of DKS intact, but as consumers we need to realise that what we have been given is good, and to demand more might not be the wisest decision.

    Again, my intent is not to make anybody feel bad or wrong about discussing their ideas to improve DKS, but just to raise awareness of the fact that it just might not need to be improved.

    DISCUSS!

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by Jthe1 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:16 am

    I would agree to a certain point as i believe that there is always room for improvement. But what makes DKS so good is the satisfaction of defeating an over the top enemy that you just realized had you been better prepared for, wouldn't have taken you 5 minutes to kill.

    Yes you could put more flashy Armour and weapons in, but i don't think that there is anything that needs changing at this point. Especially with the new DLC that has just came out.

    In the end DKS is great because of the challenge it provides to players and the ability to summon other players just gives you that good feeling that your not alone in your battle's.
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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by SlakeMoth on Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:08 am

    I agree with you. I've been playing Dark Souls on and off from day one and thought it well nigh perfect as it was. In the past twelve months, however, there's been an increase of posts saying 'why did From do this', why don't From do that'?, some of which have turned into downright rants, mostly from people who are only interested in the PvP aspect of the game and how it affects their particular build etc. There is a distinct danger that if From start taking too much notice of this, the game and it's successor(s), if there is one, may well lose it's unique identity and I for one don't want this to happen.

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by bla on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:02 am

    Edit: I may have rambled a bit...

    In every game I play and like I always find some holes to poke at. I find those because I like the game, otherwise I wouldn't bother.
    When I come into a forum and point them out usually some big discussion breaks out, no matter if I said in the beginning of the thread that this is just my opinion, no matter that I only wanted to see if somebody out there shares my views and that they in no way wishes on how to improve the game in the future. Well they are, but they are MY wishes, which I know will never get done.
    No game on earth will ever please everybody 100% ever, much like everything else, given that we humans are such varied buggers.

    However this protectiveness from forum users stems from something: people realize the internet has, more and more, an active voice, so they see this kind of poking as a threat to the integrity of their beloved game, as if some developer was stalking the boards going "oh if these guys feel this way maybe we should do it"

    A couple of years ago this would be unthinkable. However, if we look at a recent triple A title changing its ending because of the fans...
    Now, before anyone jumps the gun: no I didn't play or see it. I don't care about the specifics, but rather that the creators actually changed their final work because it was almost demanded of them. It's like you said big time master: demand more more and more.

    For argument's sake let's turn this hypothetical: X game reintroduces Y concept because the devs really love it. For some reason a group of people start complaining about it to the point where they're sending death threats to the devs and the concept gets dropped.
    Later on everybody realizes that the dropped concept was really good but the deed is done...

    I guess this is what I'm trying to say: a collective voice that has too much influence on the outcome of a creative process can be a very dangerous thing. But the companies are also to blame since the only language they speak is money and they chase it like there is no tomorrow.

    I would love to see the end result of a sponsored contest were every game company would try to make the best game they envisioned without thinking sales.
    I'm guessing we would see some amazing stuff.

    Forum/internet input can be constructive for developers but it should never be law. I feel a bit disgusted at how much power the collective voice is starting to have, because its power isn't based on the merit of the ideas in it, rather companies listen to it because it speaks their language, the language of money.
    Of course there are exceptions but in general I feel that I'm more and more living in an age were "cater to the masses" is the way to go.

    I'm gonna sound like an arrogant prick here but I'll say it anyway: average Joe's voice should not be a part of a creative process.
    And before you think I'm being elitist or something consider this: I have a limited amount of games that interest me and can choose from.
    How many health-regen-military-shooter-car-race-rewinder-grind-fest-pay-per-byte-button-mashing titles does average gamer Joe gets?

    Final thought:
    Guy at work: "Modern movies are getting better and better."
    Me: "How come?"
    Guy at work: "Special effects are much better now."

    I
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    I hope I haven't deviated much big time master. I kinda extrapolated a bit. Feel free to correct me, and of course discuss more things.
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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:03 pm

    "I'm gonna sound like an arrogant prick here but I'll say it anyway: average Joe's voice should not be a part of a creative process.
    And before you think I'm being elitist or something consider this: I have a limited amount of games that interest me and can choose from.
    How many health-regen-military-shooter-car-race-rewinder-grind-fest-pay-per-byte-button-mashing titles does average gamer Joe gets?"

    I don't know how to quote only sections^^^

    I totally agree. Its not the patrons job to tell the cook how to prepare his food, but rather to learn to enjoy what is put before him, or eat elsewhere!

    What I really respect about FROM is that they (so far) have stuck to their guns and not pandered to fans whining. Its a big plus that their product is also right up my alley.

    I also agree that it seems most complaining comes from PVPers looking for more balance. From my perspective this all seems like "it's not fair" whining that stems from anger at being killed multiple times by a certain whatever. The only way to make the game absolutely 100% balanced is to have only one weapon, armor, and moveset! The original Halo was the most balanced multiplayer game I have ever played, and the main reason was that 90% of the time everyone was using the pistol, so the field was level. There were other weapons and they were well balanced, but we're talking like 4 others that people actually use.

    DKS has 100+ weapons. Not one of those weapons is so OP that a majority of people are using it. Especially since the latest patch. If FROM nerfs and buffs each and every little thing people whine about every time they are killed, the game would become unplayable.

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by GkMrBane on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:13 pm

    Bane supports this message.


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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:21 pm

    GkMrBane wrote:Bane supports this message.

    Can I have your autograph?

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by Shindori on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:32 pm

    Only thing I'd dare ask for is more weapons, armor, and stuff to explore. It's just a damn good game.


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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by Phoenix Rising on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:34 pm

    Now I want a steak...


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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:07 pm

    Shindori wrote:Only thing I'd dare ask for is more weapons, armor, and stuff to explore. It's just a damn good game.

    Honestly, in a sequel the only thing I want is different areas and different weapons. Keep the except same mechanics. If they just kept coming out with more new areas to explore I would keep playing forever. The best part of DKS, to me, is that first time through a new area. Nothing gets me hard like some good ole wanderlust.

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:12 pm

    I do wish to keep Dark Souls the same, but the next game on the other hand I wish to see something more. Otherwise...Why buy it? I don't have an interest in graphics, I want more overall content.

    I really enjoy Dark Souls and I think it is a pretty great game with some flaws. Perhaps flaws can be fixed. Perhaps they can accidentally be expanded upon. I'd wish to see them at least try. There are aspect of Demon's I actually liked better, and aspects of Dark I consider better. When designing games one thing you can do is look back on your previous works to try and ad what you think would help, and to remove what you think hurts the game.

    Now do I want to see guns in the next game and robots? Well that might be cool but I do wish for them to make a similar game still. I wish for the new features or content in general to be similar but just improved.

    However one point I do agree with the remark about how the average consumer's voice should not be considered on the concept of quality. Your average Joe would hate Citizen Kane despite the fact that it is a fantastically made movie. I do think there should be consideration in regards to bugs or things people might find unanimously annoying. Other than that I'd rather have From calling the shots on what gets in the game and what doesn't.
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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:25 pm

    Tolvo wrote:I do wish to keep Dark Souls the same, but the next game on the other hand I wish to see something more. Otherwise...Why buy it? I don't have an interest in graphics, I want more overall content.

    I really enjoy Dark Souls and I think it is a pretty great game with some flaws. Perhaps flaws can be fixed. Perhaps they can accidentally be expanded upon. I'd wish to see them at least try. There are aspect of Demon's I actually liked better, and aspects of Dark I consider better. When designing games one thing you can do is look back on your previous works to try and ad what you think would help, and to remove what you think hurts the game.

    Now do I want to see guns in the next game and robots? Well that might be cool but I do wish for them to make a similar game still. I wish for the new features or content in general to be similar but just improved.

    However one point I do agree with the remark about how the average consumer's voice should not be considered on the concept of quality. Your average Joe would hate Citizen Kane despite the fact that it is a fantastically made movie. I do think there should be consideration in regards to bugs or things people might find unanimously annoying. Other than that I'd rather have From calling the shots on what gets in the game and what doesn't.

    Here, here!

    I agree, my point is only to shed light on a need to check our desires and remember why we are still addicted to this game in the first place.



    And I know what you mean about wanting more than a new paint job, I'm just so pleased with DKS that I'm afraid a sequel that has been changed just for the sake of having to have something new might end up like the latest Ghost Recon or something. GR was my all time favorite shooter series and the newest one was just garbage. All because they thought fans wanted something new.

    I think the guys at FROM have the smarts to come up with a sequel that keeps it the same but subtely enhances the familiar flavor with some flavorful new spices, but I'm still apprehensive. I do not believe that most of the fans have the same smarts though. Most gamers aren't really sure why they like it, they just do.

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:33 pm

    http://youtu.be/JOHyD49DaeA

    Is this what happened to Ghost Recon?

    From Soft has given me a few worries, the handling of the DLC was one such instance. But I do trust them because of Dark Souls and Demon's. So I'll have to wait and see. In either case there is actually a blog post from a Let's Player which I think really well explains the idea of creating high quality content while trying to make your consumer happy, without just listening to what they are saying on every matter.

    http://chip-and-ironicus.tumblr.com/post/33796157826/ironicus-reacts-to-the-general-reaction-to-etc
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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:37 pm

    Tolvo wrote:http://youtu.be/JOHyD49DaeA

    Is this what happened to Ghost Recon?

    From Soft has given me a few worries, the handling of the DLC was one such instance. But I do trust them because of Dark Souls and Demon's. So I'll have to wait and see. In either case there is actually a blog post from a Let's Player which I think really well explains the idea of creating high quality content while trying to make your consumer happy, without just listening to what they are saying on every matter.

    [url=http://chip-and-ironicus.tumblr.com/post/33796157826/ironicus-reacts-to-the-general-reaction-to-etc
    http://chip-and-ironicus.tumblr.com/post/33796157826/ironicus-reacts-to-the-general-reaction-to-etc[/quote[/url]]



    That is precisely what happened with GR. I'm gonna read that other article later when I have more time.

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:44 pm

    His talk of Pandering versus accepting Criticism is early on, while the rest is more about the appeal of a certain LP'er.
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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:08 pm

    The conflict between artistic integrity and commercial potential is the oldest one in the entertainment biz. It rears its head in music, film, and gaming. FROM has pride in this franchise, that's easy to see. Most of the hardcore elements of this game are still intact, despite all the complaints about what various patches have done. This was made evident to me just this morning, when I died at the bottom of Blighttown trying to get the firekeeper soul. I've done this in my sleep dozens of times. But I went in hastily, and unprepared, and paid for it.

    I don't know how much pressure, internal and/or external, they get to expand the audience. I'm sure tthey are aware that only a certain breed of gamer will push through this game. I run an adult gamer group where lots of people like RPG's, but only a couple dared venture into Dark Souls. Most people I suggest it to come back and say they gave up early. I knew a guy who put in nearly 30 hours, and couldn't get past the Taurus demon.

    It must be an awful burden for them, knowing that many casual RPG players are drawn to the game, but give up because of the difficulty. But to win them, FROM has to diminish everything we love about the game. Not exactly something that's easy to resolve.

    To me, the simplest solution is to always ensure that coop is as easy and seamless as possible. Demons Souls had this element. I think that despite the difficulty in gameplay, having coop help makes a huge difference. I just hope they are able to retain all those core elements we love going forward.
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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:25 pm

    If it wasn't for the coop I would have quit.

    Whether in a game or the real world, suffering alone sucks. Suffer with some friends, or anyone who is the same species, and it becomes a twisted sort of fun.

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:28 pm

    BIG TIME MASTER wrote:If it wasn't for the coop I would have quit.

    Whether in a game or the real world, suffering alone sucks. Suffer with some friends, or anyone who is the same species, and it becomes a twisted sort of fun.

    Absolutely, brother. Coop is what keeps me coming back after all this time (and the PvP). Friends, random strangers...I don't care. Just give me that sense of community against steep odds. That's the experience I crave.
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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:36 pm

    I was skeptical about the wood carving things at first, but now I completely dig them.

    I laugh out loud (and I never usually laugh out loud) so often because of the ridiculousness that you can create with them. Yesterday I was helping some folks out in Oolacile town as a sunbro (i'm always a sunbro) and an invader and I had a showdown on opposite ends of the long bridge.

    "Hello!"

    "Help me!" I called, and did the beckon gesture.

    When he started cautiously approaching I threw a dung pie at him, then said, "I'm sorry!" Then I prostrated.

    "Very good!" He said

    Then we battled, and each time one of us had a good hit we would back up and say, "very good!"

    Just a hilarious experience that no other game can produce.



    I also keep the "im sorry" carving permanently in my quick inventory and drop it anytime I kill an invader or special enemy, and do the prostration gesture if I can. You know, keeping chivalry alive.


    Last edited by BIG TIME MASTER on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by GkMrBane on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:38 pm

    shhhhhh its ok you guys only need a little dub step in your life. here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkc_-b_mFI0&feature=related


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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by BIG TIME MASTER on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:39 pm

    GkMrBane wrote:shhhhhh its ok you guys only need a little dub step in your life. here [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkc_-b_mFI0&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkc_-b_mFI0&feature=related[/quote[/url]]

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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by Emergence on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:51 pm

    From experiences considerable pressure, especially from publishing standpoints to increase the profitability of the brand by moving maximum units. What we are all experiencing is the fine tuning as they seek to strike the balance between broad appeal and artistic integrity. Too far in either direction will be detrimental to their success unless they successfully reinvent the wheel.

    But from fan standpoints, wishful thinking, as outlandish as those wishes may be, is a very good thing to wax about and indicates a franchise's health. When you begin to see incessant and repetitive dissatisfaction, that implies a franchise is near flatlined. When people are having a ton of fun in a world, they begin to think just maybe it can become the only game they need to play.


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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by kramage on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:11 pm

    This is a great game and offers what so many gamers toady need... A challenge. If you say this game is too hard I'll say put more points into vit but really this game offers the exact same basic mechanics as old school games where you have to: OBSERVE, MEMORIZE, REACT.

    Many gamers today are spoiled with quick time or scripted events. In DS there is none of this you either dodge or get hit end of story. If you think quick time or scripted events enhance the game then you probably love RE6.

    This game is simple and utilized something most games lack. IMAGINATION. If you don't believe me look at all the lore threads.

    My only complaint with this game is why cant they patch the eilite cleric set to drop if Peterus kills Rhea before whe left for dukes? but I digress.


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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by bla on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:24 pm

    Note to self: do not post when you are cranky in the morning.

    After re-reading my post I thought my ramblings would create some fuss, but no, only level-headed comments followed.
    This is the most civilized forum I've ever been in... and now I feel ashamed of my slight outburst... silly


    Back on topic:

    This conflict between artistic integrity and commercial potential is indeed old but I think From has so far came through with flying colors.
    Of course fans have every right to complain about a bug for example.
    I just don't want to see the voice of the masses overcome what can be an original/good concept, otherwise citizen Kane would be citizen Bane.
    And he would come back with a vengeance... again and again... in a v8 bobsled... with miniguns mounted on the sides.
    Citizen Bane IV - red snow. Coming this summer. You may not remember the past (dramatic pause, 20 billion images flash in a second, big scream at the end, then silence) but he never forgot. Sleep

    Nevertheless I suppose a company, even one that tries to strike a balance between art/concept and marketability has to listen to someone: if the next souls game came out and not a single person here liked it something would be very wrong.
    Game markers, in regards to fan input, need to analyze said input and realize whether it goes against their initial vision or not.
    If it's good, meaningful, adaptable input then go for it I suppose.

    I for one trust From and I think they will continue to make good games.

    If they make another dark souls with simply new scenarios I'd buy it.
    If they make another souls game with new content, ideas, innovation etc. etc. I'd dust off my tent and camp next to the store that would be selling it.
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    vegan666
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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

    Post by vegan666 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:01 pm

    Agreed with OP. From day one with this game, I was completely drawn in and addicted. I have been gaming for over 25 years now and I can:t recall ever becoming so taken with a game. It is as close to a perfect game as there has even been for me. I was floored by the gritty world created, and by one of the most original takes on multiplayer ever.

    I fear that due to the deafening voice of the few, people demanding more and more, writing off the game for some small grievance, From Software may take these criticisms on board. Maybe they won't bother with a sequel, or will make it greatly different to try and cater to the self entitled few. This would be a tragedy.

    It is a shame that From wasn't inundated with praise for all the things they did right, and for the absolutely amazing game they have created. The internet generation seem to think they are owed everything, and whatever they demand. As a somewhat old timer, I'd like to tell them to shut the f**k up and be thankful for the wonderful games they get to play, and the fact that a developer will take risks, be creative and not just churn out bland annual cash cow clones like COD.


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    Re: Dark Souls is good, don't try to make it perfect: DISCUSSION

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