Some new discoveries in the old content and questions for you guys!

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    Some new discoveries in the old content and questions for you guys!

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:05 pm

    It seems as if in my Analysis Series: Astora I overlooked
    something that could have made a connection between 2 nations or… totally
    proved a portion of my theory incorrect. I’m leaning towards a connections,
    however; if it sounds as if I’m blinded by my own ideas and I’m making no sense
    whatsoever please let me know. I’ve also got some questions (that probably have
    no answers) that I’m gonna ask you guys because I just can’t make connections
    anymore lol.


    While researching Astora I found the Caduceus Round Shield
    and Caduceus Kite Shield particularly interesting. In my speculation I said…


    Spoiler:
    So it seems
    that the color of Astora is blue. Interestingly enough, there is an item in the
    graveyard that has blue in its description…



    Caduceus
    Round Shield:



    Round wooden shield crafted in Lordran.
    Decorated by an ancient blue Caduceus.
    The giant trees in Lordran are distant
    offspring of the great stone archtrees.
    This shield inherits their properties,
    and the wood greatly reduces magic damage.



    Blue and
    reduces magic damage and found in the graveyard which I speculate used to be
    part of Astora. Its properties are very similar to that of the Crest shield. Also,
    the picture on the Crest Shield to me seems very “tree like”. This would also
    suggest that the citizens of Astora have a deep history with Gwyn and his relationship
    with the Serpents, when we look up the meaning of the Caduceus. It also suggests that the Astorians assisted
    Gwyn in his battle with the Dragons. The Dragon Crest Shield helps prove that
    Astora did do battle with dragons at one point, it’s location is also key to
    note….



    Dragon
    Crest Shield:



    Shield of a nameless knight, likely a
    high-ranked knight of Astora.



    One of the enchanted blue shields.
    The Dragon Crest Shield greatly reduces
    fire damage.



    To continue, Andre
    of Astora is the only NPC that sells the Caduceus Kite Shield. . .



    Caduceus Kite
    Shield:



    Medium metal shield.
    Decorated by an ancient blue Caduceus.
    A standard, widely-used shield.



    The picture
    on this shield is much more important than its description. Please do not be
    confused by the description saying “A Standard, Widely-used shield” as it is
    talking about the style of shield that it is, a Kite Shield. For example, the
    tower shield is the same, however; it has a different design on it. The picture on the Caduceus Kite Shield shows
    2 Serpents heads coming up from under what seems to be the ground looking down
    upon what I believe to be the LordVessel. This is the Firelink Shrine Chamber,
    further showing that is used to be part of Astora. So Oscar didn’t tell you the whole story. His
    family knew a lot more about this “legend” of the chosen Undead than he let you
    know, or the information was lost in its passing down. In addition to this, it
    seems Seath took a large group of the Astorians and used them in his
    experiments and they roam the Duke’s Archives as Crystal Hollows.



    We also know that Knights of Astora dealt with
    holy weapons.



    Astorias
    Straight Sword:



    Straight sword of an unknown knight,
    likely one of Astora's superiors.



    High-quality weapon with a powerful blessing.


    This was due
    to the fact that they were attacked at one point by a dark beast (possibly from
    the abyss) the Evil Eye.



    Ring of the Evil Eye:


    “According to legend, this ring
    contains the spirit of the evil eye, a dark beast which assaulted Astora.

    The strength of the evil eye does not waver,
    and HP is absorbed from fallen enemies.”



    Today while doing a play through doing some research on the
    Way of White I made my way to the Tomb of the Giants. There I found Rhea and
    defeated her escorts Nico and Vince. While fighting them I noticed… They both held Caduceus
    Kite Shields…. I’m not sure why I never noticed it before but because of my
    recent speculation I just happened to spot them this time. The Caduceus Kite
    Shield is an extremely interesting item when you look up what a Caduceus is..
    Also, the picture on this shield is of 2 serpent heads (Primordial) looking
    over what seems to be the Lord Vessel which is shooting into a triangle (haven’t
    figured out what this is). I had already planned on speculating that Thorolund
    and Astora had strong ties due to the fact that both Rhea of Thorolund and the
    Ash Maiden (of Astora) wear the same type clothing. Also, we can make a
    connection now as to how/why Astora had Holy enchanted weapons (Astora’s Straight
    Sword). I still stick to my guns about Artorias originally being from Astora
    due to the nature of his Original un-cursed weapon and the nature of his armor.
    However, this proves me dead wrong about the Crystal Warriors in the Dukes
    Archives being from Astora. With this discovery we could easily say that these
    crystal warriors used to be WoW Clerics. It also explains why the Cadecus Round
    Shield would be in the graveyard weakening my speculation about that area once
    being a part of Astora (but not by much XD). It could also explain some of the
    beef Havel had with Seath. Upon further inspection of the Tomb of the Giants I
    also found this,


    Red and White Round
    Shield:



    Round wooden shield crafted
    in Lordran

    featuring an impressive red and white design.
    The giant trees in Lordran are distant
    offspring of the great stone archtrees.
    This shield inherits their properties, and
    the wood greatly reduces magic damage.



    This shield (other than the second line) has the exact same
    description as the Caduceus Round Shield, it is only dropped by Skeletons in
    the Catacombs.. Did this Shield used to belong to the WoW clerics as well? That
    could explain just who Nito is reanimating seeing as if they were undead he
    could be unable to bring them back as Skeletons. However, I’m having a hard
    time piecing some things together.


    When I made these discoveries my first thoughts were “Hmmmm
    does this connect Allfather Loyd and Nito somehow?” It also made me wonder if
    Nito could in fact be Allfather Loyd . If Nito assisted in the battle with the
    dragons (we know he did) then why is he putting up resistance against Gwyn’s
    own Uncle? Or is this the reason Nito is unmoving? Or he is cooperating by
    putting together this test for Undead madiens to become Fire-keepers? I’ve always wondered why the Gravelord would
    have Miracles…… Lastly, this is kind of off subject but the 2 Knights that
    attack you in Anor Londo after you destroy the image of Gwynivere (1 Balder, 1
    Berenkie). Does anybody think it’s possible one of those guys is Knight King
    Ranel? Ack to many questions and I don’t know of any item descriptions or anything
    I could look at to help me. Thanks for the read and hopefully one of you guys
    can help!


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    Re: Some new discoveries in the old content and questions for you guys!

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:37 pm

    On the caduceus... that's an age-old symbol and I really don't see anything to suggest that it's linked to the Primordial Serpent. For all we know, no one even knows of them and there are more than two-ten of of them are showed in the Dark Lord ending. Furthermore, the crystal hollow-things in the Duke's Archives carry these-it seems to be a snake symbol, (there are snakemen serving Seath as well) not something linked to the Primordial Serpent.
    Stating that only Andre sells the caduceus shield does not offer support to this, either. He also is the only merchant to sell bastard swords which Seiglinde uses, who is from Catarina. The male Undead Merchant is the only one who sells several items and weapons and the chainmail set. Does that mean the country he comes from is the only one that makes chainmail? No. I think the caduceus is a universal symbol as it is in our world and is therefore found many places.
    I had come to a similar conclusion to the color blue being linked to Astora. No nation would associate itself with a single color; national designs and flags are multicolored. Blue does seem to be a major part of Astora's heraldry.
    As for the graveyard... this is in Lordran, another nation entirely. If Astora is even close by, it's further south than that. It COULD be that the Northern Undead Asylum is in Astora, or it could be further north than any nation other than Lordran.


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    Re: Some new discoveries in the old content and questions for you guys!

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:15 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:On the caduceus... that's an age-old symbol and I really don't see anything to suggest that it's linked to the Primordial Serpent. For all we know, no one even knows of them and there are more than two-ten of of them are showed in the Dark Lord ending. Furthermore, the crystal hollow-things in the Duke's Archives carry these-it seems to be a snake symbol, (there are snakemen serving Seath as well) not something linked to the Primordial Serpent.
    Stating that only Andre sells the caduceus shield does not offer support to this, either. He also is the only merchant to sell bastard swords which Seiglinde uses, who is from Catarina. The male Undead Merchant is the only one who sells several items and weapons and the chainmail set. Does that mean the country he comes from is the only one that makes chainmail? No. I think the caduceus is a universal symbol as it is in our world and is therefore found many places.
    I had come to a similar conclusion to the color blue being linked to Astora. No nation would associate itself with a single color; national designs and flags are multicolored. Blue does seem to be a major part of Astora's heraldry.
    As for the graveyard... this is in Lordran, another nation entirely. If Astora is even close by, it's further south than that. It COULD be that the Northern Undead Asylum is in Astora, or it could be further north than any nation other than Lordran.


    I’d like you to take a closer look at the picture on the Caduceus
    Kite Shield. Maybe, just like the
    painted guardians the meaning of the shield has been lost over time. However, the Way of the White Clerics are
    carrying these shields and these clerics belong to an order that Allfather Loyd
    has put together. You reference the ending where there are several serpents surrounding
    the entrance to the Kiln. However, when they speak they only state that Frampt
    and Kaathe will serve. To me meaning there are 2 groups of Serpents the Kaathe
    and Frampt group. So on this shield the 2 snake heads would represent the 2
    clans, and what they are looking down on is the Lord Vessel.


    When I said that Andre was the only one who sold the shield,
    I wasn’t implying that it ment his is the only country that makes the shields I
    was attempting to link Astora to the shield. We have no idea where the Undead
    Merchant is from but he tells us he pillages his wears. Andre creates his
    wears. I am also not implying that a
    country would associate itself with a single color, however; Andre of Astora
    selling a Caduceus shield that has blue on it when we know that Astora uses
    blue in their colors I find interesting.


    As for this is in Lordran. Oolicale, and New Londo are also
    in Lordran but we call it Oolacile. It is possible that there are areas that
    have lost their names similar to Oolacile and are countries we hear about in
    game. I was speculating that the Undead Church, Perish, Bridge, and Firelink
    Shrine used to be Astora due to the items and people we find around these
    areas.


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    Re: Some new discoveries in the old content and questions for you guys!

    Post by Artoriasflagg on Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:14 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:On the caduceus... that's an age-old symbol and I really don't see anything to suggest that it's linked to the Primordial Serpent. For all we know, no one even knows of them and there are more than two-ten of of them are showed in the Dark Lord ending. Furthermore, the crystal hollow-things in the Duke's Archives carry these-it seems to be a snake symbol, (there are snakemen serving Seath as well) not something linked to the Primordial Serpent.
    Stating that only Andre sells the caduceus shield does not offer support to this, either. He also is the only merchant to sell bastard swords which Seiglinde uses, who is from Catarina. The male Undead Merchant is the only one who sells several items and weapons and the chainmail set. Does that mean the country he comes from is the only one that makes chainmail? No. I think the caduceus is a universal symbol as it is in our world and is therefore found many places.
    I had come to a similar conclusion to the color blue being linked to Astora. No nation would associate itself with a single color; national designs and flags are multicolored. Blue does seem to be a major part of Astora's heraldry.
    As for the graveyard... this is in Lordran, another nation entirely. If Astora is even close by, it's further south than that. It COULD be that the Northern Undead Asylum is in Astora, or it could be further north than any nation other than Lordran.
    The symbol itself is one that can be found throughout history in our world, yes... but if you can honnestly finde me any type of snake in our world that looks like the two depicted on that sheild I would be greatly surprised (as well as slightly terrified). The round shield depicts two similar serpents, but the image on the kite shield also includes the Lord Vessel, as stated above. From everything I have found, this is likely indicating that what was going on under/around Firelink was once common knowledge; whether it was believed to be fact is debatable, I would venture to guess that the people in that time viewed the Primordial Serpents as more of a fairytale than anything else. The meaning behind the symbol should also be noted, being that it is meant to represent a messenger of the gods and anyone else doing the gods' work. Ideal symbol for the WotW and an undead missioinary.

    Nothing in the game is there by accident. Andre selling the shield seems to be a perfectly resonable hint that the equipment originated in Astora. Its subtle, interesting, and has a great deal of background potential if you choose to read into it as such... just like most of the game itself.

    As for the different areas being parts of other natioins... Due to the way time works in Lordran we may never have a concrete answer for this one. However, the way that npcs talk about Astora, it sounds as though it was a far-off land (with Solaire in particular discussing how he made a great journey from his home to reach the land of the Great Lords) and likely not part of the relatively small section of the world that we get to play around on and influence. Still, its hard to deny that there are certain areas that could certainly be connected to the information we know of Astora and simply have had their names lost to the ages.

    Very interesting speculation...


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    Re: Some new discoveries in the old content and questions for you guys!

    Post by Shkar on Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:25 pm

    I talked to a pastor at an Orthodox Church once, and he explained something that seems to apply here something.

    He said that blue was a color associated with divinity, and red a color associated with royalty (I may have the colors backwords). So in a country like Astora that seems to be very active religiously, it seems entirely possible to me that they might have things like that.


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    Re: Some new discoveries in the old content and questions for you guys!

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:26 pm

    Blue has also been associated with royalty and prestige. Up until recent times, indigo and purple were among the rarest and most expensive of dyes; it was often a symbol of status to be wearing either. Blue, while more common than those, was still uncommon and easier to come by than most colors like red, yellow or green.
    As for all the references to Astora-the evidence is true for Balder, Berenike, etc. From the item descriptions, Astora is described as a powerful and advanced nation, utilizing both cutting-edge technology and divine magic (the Astora Straight Sword, Crest Shield, divine upgrade path via an Astoran smith). As for the Kite shield-it says in the description that it's among the most common of shields the world over, similar to a basic longsword or spear, which could easily explain why the clerics have it, beyond the fact that almost every culture everywhere has a fascination with serpents in some form. While, yes, it has blue, not EVERYTHING blue is linked to Astora-actually, many of the Astoran items are blue and gold, sometimes with silver. The Caduceus shield does not match the artstyle depicted on the other Astoran objects, nor does it have the common gold-color. In fact, whereas everything Astoran has a very realistic or traditional art style, the caduceus is very stylized. Another note on that is that on the shield, only the caduceus is blue while the rest is silver, while in the other Astoran arms (the crest shield, the dragon crest shield, the Astoran straight sword) the background is blue while the object of attention is a different color-normally gold. While there may be something, take note that there is no basic or default shield in this game as there is a simple 'longsword'. I do not see any well-supported evidence linking the caduceus shield to Astora. A link to the Primordial Serpents I could see. It looks like that's stretching; the item description is

    Medium metal shield.
    Decorated by an ancient blue Caduceus.
    A standard, widely-used shield.
    Unlike so many other items, the in-text reference just doesn't seem to be there. The image, as you pointed out, can be interpreted as that, so that one I think is possible.


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    Re: Some new discoveries in the old content and questions for you guys!

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:35 pm

    ArtoriasFlagg: I talked about this in my Analysis Series:
    Astora thread here http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t13089-analysis-series-astora
    . But I left Soliare’s dialogue out of my analysis of Astora. Here is a quote
    of what I told the guys…





    The two people I purposely left out of my analysis you
    mentioned lol!
    I honestly wanted to leave out Solaire because of the nature
    of his dialogue and character. For one he seems to be actively time traveling
    as compare to someone like Andre. For example, Solaire is of Astora and yet his
    armor is so different compared to the other exampes of Astora gear we have. In
    addition,
    I’ve also always assumed Lordran is similar to Denver, Colorado. Its borders
    keep expanding until everything is Lordran. What was once Astora would be
    considered Lordran.

    I didn’t want to speak on Ricard because of the description
    of his weapon….
    ”A rapier with intricate decorations. Chosen weapon of the famous Undead
    Prince Ricard. Ricard's exploits are told in a monomyth."
    "He
    was born into royalty, but wandered
    the lands in a fateful ill-conceived journey. He became Undead and disappeared
    up North."

    Notice how it says his exploits are told in monomyth. During my
    researching of Astora I found some pretty cool things about monomyths…. But ..
    I would have had to go into much heavier speculation to explain it, and I just
    couldn’t back it up lol.


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    Re: Some new discoveries in the old content and questions for you guys!

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:38 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:Blue has also been associated with royalty and prestige. Up until recent times, indigo and purple were among the rarest and most expensive of dyes; it was often a symbol of status to be wearing either. Blue, while more common than those, was still uncommon and easier to come by than most colors like red, yellow or green.
    As for all the references to Astora-the evidence is true for Balder, Berenike, etc. From the item descriptions, Astora is described as a powerful and advanced nation, utilizing both cutting-edge technology and divine magic (the Astora Straight Sword, Crest Shield, divine upgrade path via an Astoran smith). As for the Kite shield-it says in the description that it's among the most common of shields the world over, similar to a basic longsword or spear, which could easily explain why the clerics have it, beyond the fact that almost every culture everywhere has a fascination with serpents in some form. While, yes, it has blue, not EVERYTHING blue is linked to Astora-actually, many of the Astoran items are blue and gold, sometimes with silver. The Caduceus shield does not match the artstyle depicted on the other Astoran objects, nor does it have the common gold-color. In fact, whereas everything Astoran has a very realistic or traditional art style, the caduceus is very stylized. Another note on that is that on the shield, only the caduceus is blue while the rest is silver, while in the other Astoran arms (the crest shield, the dragon crest shield, the Astoran straight sword) the background is blue while the object of attention is a different color-normally gold. While there may be something, take note that there is no basic or default shield in this game as there is a simple 'longsword'. I do not see any well-supported evidence linking the caduceus shield to Astora. A link to the Primordial Serpents I could see. It looks like that's stretching; the item description is

    Medium metal shield.
    Decorated by an ancient blue Caduceus.
    A standard, widely-used shield.
    Unlike so many other items, the in-text reference just doesn't seem to be there. The image, as you pointed out, can be interpreted as that, so that one I think is possible.

    Don't let those words fool you man. It's referencing the fact that it's a Kite Shield. Just look at the Tower Kite Shield's description.
    Medium metal shield. Decorated with a tower,
    the symbol of protection.
    A standard, widely-used shield.

    The picture and the people who use the shield are pretty important..


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    A bit off-topic...

    Post by moaiguy42 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:13 am

    Kind of an off-topic question, but is there any evidence as to whether or not the Rite of Kindling is a piece of Nito's soul, seeing as it drops from Pinwheel, who stole part of Nito's power (arguably part of his soul, but that's speculation), and Pinwheel doesn't drop his own unique soul? Proper Bow
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    Re: Some new discoveries in the old content and questions for you guys!

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:18 am

    moaiguy42 wrote:Kind of an off-topic question, but is there any evidence as to whether or not the Rite of Kindling is a piece of Nito's soul, seeing as it drops from Pinwheel, who stole part of Nito's power (arguably part of his soul, but that's speculation), and Pinwheel doesn't drop his own unique soul?

    The rite being part of his soul is interesting speculation I don't think there is anything to corroborate it either, I'll take a look though =)


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