I LOVE THE ARENA!

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    Carphil
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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Carphil on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:49 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Curse you Redtube!

    Also this topic has seriously degraded over time.

    I tried to bring it back, but sundently you guys are talking about porn?


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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Marino. on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:54 pm

    Nobody wants to talk about this anymore since everyone (or at least i) came to the conclusion that everyone has a different Opinion on this .

    So i would just let this Topic die out .
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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:01 pm

    I'd be cool with talking about it Carphil. I just got too caught up in the joke for a bit there.
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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Knight Alundil on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:41 pm

    Carphil wrote:hmm, back to the topic, what you guys think about people who coordinate in free for all matches to team up and don't attack eachother? AfaIk, the matchmaking is pure random, which makes me think that they message right before the fight start. I've seen this a couple times and I'm a bit dissapointed :|

    My initial response was to agree with you and say that particular practice is a bit unsporting, but then I thought about it and i'd like to leave it up to the fourth players response. Whether or not he realizes and teams up with you is an interesting element big grin

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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:45 pm

    I haven't thrown my word in yet! My opinion is that Faith healing is unfair because it is only available to faith builds. It's not at all the same thing as melee advantages vs magic advantages vs bow, etc. These all have their pros and cons against each other--they're balanced. Faith healing is just faith healing vs... nothing. No other type of build has the ability to heal, or any related advantage to compensate for their lack of it.

    The only argument I've read pro-healing is that "it costs so few levels to get", so basically you're all admitting that it's necessary and that everyone should have it in their build. If it's necessary, by implication, doesn't it become the definition of unbalanced? "Use this or you can't compete" is not balanced.


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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Marino. on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:50 pm

    BLA1NE wrote:I haven't thrown my word in yet! My opinion is that Faith healing is unfair because it is only available to faith builds. It's not at all the same thing as melee advantages vs magic advantages vs bow, etc. These all have their pros and cons against each other--they're balanced. Faith healing is just faith healing vs... nothing. No other type of build has the ability to heal.

    The only argument I've read pro-healing is that "it costs so few levels to get", so basically you're all admitting that it's necessary and that everyone should have it in their build. If it's necessary, by implication, doesn't it become the definition of unbalanced? "Use this or you can't compete" is not balanced.

    Dark Souls PVP and balance ? Mahahahahaha thats a good one BLA1NE .

    But i agree with you nonetheless .
    But still it only has 12 Faith requirement everyone should be able to squeeze that in.
    Back in Demons noone complained that you have to have Second Chance so i dont see what the Issue is now Shrug
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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:52 pm

    It reminds me a bit more of having Pyromancy to duel, versus not having pyromancy to duel. That stat investment is minimal.

    Now I think it needs tweaking yes. I think that the normal heal, which costs little stat investment, should not scale as much with higher levels. That would help with this issue somewhat.
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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:53 pm

    Just because it's unbalanced doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for balance. That's why we discuss, after all! It's all we can do--it's not like we have any real effect on the game (and even if we did, I'm not entirely sure that'd be a good thing...).

    It's not the first time I talk about balance issues on these forums, and every time the reason I do it is to ensure the maximum amount of viable choices the player has at his disposition, and fun. If you need something to be competitive, it removes choice, and diminishes fun.

    That's all I ask for--fun for everyone!


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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Marino. on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:55 pm

    Tolvo wrote:
    Now I think it needs tweaking yes. I think that the normal heal, which costs little stat investment, should not scale as much with higher levels. That would help with this issue somewhat.

    You have enough time to cast Heal twice before your Opponent drops down/reaches you , so that wouldnt really change anything .
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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:57 pm

    I always enjoy hearing Blaine's ideas about the game mechanics and their effectiveness compared to other mechanics. Sometimes I disagree with him sometimes I agree. No matter what he doesn't just say "I think this!" He always goes pretty in depth with his ideas and genuinely tests each and every side of the coin himself.
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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:00 pm

    Proper Bow Thank you.

    Wait... you've disagreed with me? silly


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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Marino. on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:01 pm

    BLA1NE wrote:Just because it's unbalanced doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for balance. That's why we discuss, after all! It's all we can do--it's not like we have any real effect on the game (and even if we did, I'm not entirely sure that'd be a good thing...).

    It's not the first time I talk about balance issues on these forums, and every time the reason I do it is to ensure the maximum amount of viable choices the player has at his disposition, and fun. If you need something to be competitive, it removes choice, and diminishes fun.

    That's all I ask for--fun for everyone!

    Thats just exagerating it .

    You just need 12 Faith to cast it , its not like it makes variable Builds impossible .

    Try fitting it in any SL 100/99(whatever the actual limit is) Arena Build . Its pretty easy .
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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:02 pm

    Well I believe I have haha.

    I think I am now, since I actually don't mind the idea of people healing in the arena with just the heal spell.
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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:10 pm

    I don't like to linger on a topic--I do try and keep my post count low! But in answer to Marino, it's more than 12 Fth. In reality, it's:

    - 12 Fth
    - 0-2, possibly more, levels of attunment
    - An attunment slot

    For builds that already had some attunment it can be costly to add another slot--and even costlier to use up one of their existing slots. This can also affect which character type you start as, which will impact other stats as well.

    All in all, no, it's not a gigantic requirement. But at SL100 it doesn't have to be to make a great difference.

    I'm not necessarily asking that Fth healing not work in the arena. Consider it as I'm proposing that there be other options available to other builds, that's all (things more viable than the Server and Sanctus, before you mention them silly).


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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:16 pm

    Something to consider if it actually works this way, low int requirement sorceries sort of focus on stealth. If that orb does not float over a person's head when they are using hidden body or chameleon, that could offer defensive qualities to others. Similarly, Pyromancers do have the ability to reduce fire damage taken.

    I think a better idea is to take a look at healing, and think of an equal defensive capability. Perhaps Iron Flesh is the closest but it still doesn't fit. I think the issue is that in the arena the situation will always exist in which a heal is helpful, yet for other low stat abilities aside from the offensive ones there might not be. So maybe they should find some better way to do it. Because I like the idea of healing in the arena. But I believe as you mentioned, there should be options that are just as useful for other builds.

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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Marino. on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:34 pm

    You need an attunment slot to cast Heal ? There lays my shattered Argument

    You can cast Vow of Silence against Healers !

    Dont take this seriously please im just messing around
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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Juutas on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:52 am

    Argument "It was not a problem in Demon's Souls, why whine about it now?" is just silly...this is Dark Souls, not Demon's Souls, a different game and more I hear about Demon's Souls PvP the more I'm beginning to have the impression that it was a pretty damn s*itty compared to Dark Souls at least what comes to PvP.
    Another argument "If it's so good why not have it your build" is also silly because I'm only saying it is op like spears, but I don't want to use op stuff because I'm just not that tryhard.
    Why not everyone just use spears and poke 'n flip all day?


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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by vatar5 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:26 am

    Juutas wrote:Argument "It was not a problem in Demon's Souls, why whine about it now?" is just silly...this is Dark Souls, not Demon's Souls, a different game and more I hear about Demon's Souls PvP the more I'm beginning to have the impression that it was a pretty damn s*itty compared to Dark Souls at least what comes to PvP.
    Another argument "If it's so good why not have it your build" is also silly because I'm only saying it is op like spears, but I don't want to use op stuff because I'm just not that tryhard.
    Why not everyone just use spears and poke 'n flip all day?

    Heal miracle OP?Seriously?You recover something like 2xx HP with 12 Faith.
    Also spear has just been nerfed and it consumes a lot of stamina to poke behind a shield thus make it easier to break the poke-r's guard and get a free hit.
    Same for DWGR who has been nerfed and allow ninja flip at the cost of huge investment on endurance or the necessity to wear light armor or nothing.

    Demons Souls PvP is a bit different than DS PvP so we can't really compare but yeah,since the miracle is really accessible,I don't see why arena builds wont get it.
    And if you choose to not have it,then maybe you chooses to have higher HP or more stamina or better armor or maybe higher stats scaling.
    Sigh I'm so repeating myself.


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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Juutas on Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:16 am

    vatar5 wrote:
    Juutas wrote:Argument "It was not a problem in Demon's Souls, why whine about it now?" is just silly...this is Dark Souls, not Demon's Souls, a different game and more I hear about Demon's Souls PvP the more I'm beginning to have the impression that it was a pretty damn s*itty compared to Dark Souls at least what comes to PvP.
    Another argument "If it's so good why not have it your build" is also silly because I'm only saying it is op like spears, but I don't want to use op stuff because I'm just not that tryhard.
    Why not everyone just use spears and poke 'n flip all day?

    Heal miracle OP?Seriously?You recover something like 2xx HP with 12 Faith.
    Also spear has just been nerfed and it consumes a lot of stamina to poke behind a shield thus make it easier to break the poke-r's guard and get a free hit.
    Same for DWGR who has been nerfed and allow ninja flip at the cost of huge investment on endurance or the necessity to wear light armor or nothing.

    Demons Souls PvP is a bit different than DS PvP so we can't really compare but yeah,since the miracle is really accessible,I don't see why arena builds wont get it.
    And if you choose to not have it,then maybe you chooses to have higher HP or more stamina or better armor or maybe higher stats scaling.
    Sigh I'm so repeating myself.

    There is this other healing miracle that fully heals you and if you have the lesser healing miracle you can just cast it multiple times, you have enough time to do that when your opponent respawns.
    Only idiot would try to turtle with spears, when two handed they are dangerous and you don't need any armor at all if you got the spear because odds are if you got DWGR and spear, nothing is ever going to hit you.


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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Marino. on Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:13 pm

    Juutas wrote:Argument "It was not a problem in Demon's Souls, why whine about it now?" is just silly...this is Dark Souls, not Demon's Souls, a different game and more I hear about Demon's Souls PvP the more I'm beginning to have the impression that it was a pretty damn s*itty compared to Dark Souls at least what comes to PvP.

    Why is it silly ?
    And all i hear about Dark Souls PVP is Cheap DWGR, Cheap Hornet Ring, Cheap Healing, Cheap Katanas, Cheap Stunlock yadayadyada .
    Dark Souls PVP is inferior to Demons .
    Or rather Dark Souls Community is inferior to Demons . Ever since the Community exploded in size i'm having a less nicer time :| .

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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:26 pm

    I'd say they have different pvp from one another. I've experienced it in both and my personal taste is for Dark. But, Demon's has some mechanics that I wish Dark had. They both have their ups and down and I don't believe one is superior to the other.

    And there are certain balance problems with weapons.

    A Katana has a longer range, a bleed effect, and deals more damage than most curved swords while being the same speed. So why use Curved swords? Certain weapons in that regards negate the purpose of other weapons. I don't think it's as simple as, "Get rid of Katana!" It's more of, look at poise damage, bleed build up, and speed.

    When something is so much better than the other options it fits the description of OP, because it is more powerful in comparison.

    A gun with 2 speed and 1 damage, is balanced with a weapon that deals 2 damage with one speed.

    If a gun deals 3 damage with 2 speed it is vastly superior to everything else and thus overpowered.
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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Juutas on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:16 pm

    Marino. wrote:
    Juutas wrote:Argument "It was not a problem in Demon's Souls, why whine about it now?" is just silly...this is Dark Souls, not Demon's Souls, a different game and more I hear about Demon's Souls PvP the more I'm beginning to have the impression that it was a pretty damn s*itty compared to Dark Souls at least what comes to PvP.

    Why is it silly ?
    And all i hear about Dark Souls PVP is Cheap DWGR, Cheap Hornet Ring, Cheap Healing, Cheap Katanas, Cheap Stunlock yadayadyada .
    Dark Souls PVP is inferior to Demons .
    Or rather Dark Souls Community is inferior to Demons . Ever since the Community exploded in size i'm having a less nicer time :| .


    Because things that don't have a proper counter like healing when opponent respawns or spears in general are just over powered, nothing I can do but just to whine about it because I see these two things in the arena too much and they just have too much benefit and I fear soon everyone is using them...it becomes a must like DWGR was (which I hate too for ovious reason).
    "Can't beat them, join them?" I can beat them, but only by using stupid tactics like bsing the f*ck out them that is just not fun for me and not for the opponent either, so who wins? no one.

    @Tolvo: curved swords are actually little faster, but yeah Katanas are still more viable.


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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Marino. on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:45 pm

    Well, if you can beat them where is the Problem ?

    Personally i dont use Heal or the DWGR (actually i never used it) because i thought fights were boring when you could loldodge everything while having 70+ Poise and it looked stupid .

    Let them play the way they want .
    If they have fun spamming Dark Magic then i have no Problem with that .

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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Kiva the wanderer on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:54 pm

    Let's just agree to disagree no ones views will change here that's just the way dark souls is.


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    Re: I LOVE THE ARENA!

    Post by Juutas on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:04 pm

    Marino. wrote:Well, if you can beat them where is the Problem ?

    Personally i dont use Heal or the DWGR (actually i never used it) because i thought fights were boring when you could loldodge everything while having 70+ Poise and it looked stupid .

    Let them play the way they want .
    If they have fun spamming Dark Magic then i have no Problem with that .


    Because not everything is about winning the match but having fun while doing so, but when using boring tactics is my only option it just makes the PvP...boring and dull to me and I don't want more people to use this dull s*it in PvP.
    We have this cool arena, but people just try their hardest to make it as boring as possible.
    Of course I let them do what they want what other options I have, but it doesn't stop it from being op and making fights just s*itty.


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