Analysis Series: First Flame

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    Analysis Series: First Flame

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:20 pm

    I’ve speculated numerous times that the First Flame is in
    fact, time itself. The other day in one of my threads Shkar brought up an
    interesting point, one I had thought about before but not as in-depth as Shkar.
    I’m going to put what he said in a spoiler box to save room, however; it is not
    spoiler related.


    Spoiler:
    “But
    on that topic, let's switch gears for a moment. Do you know of fractalization?
    It's the scientific term for something that appears the same on every level.
    When you browse facebook and see those images comparing the division of a cell
    to a certain galaxy, this is a (rather weak) example of this. If you look up
    fractalization, you can get better examples. But, the point is this: the
    powerful souls start to look a LOT like "fire". Look at the lord
    souls, Gwyn's soul, and the boss souls. The more powerful ones start to turn a
    reddish orange. EVERY soul (normal, boss, lord, and dark) has the
    "flaring" effect that people think of when they think of flames.
    Compare this to the belief that the world is a giant "organism". If
    bigger, stronger souls look like a small fire, what would the soul of the world
    look like, and possibly be confused for?

    Based on this theory, we can equate everything to a living body. Every human
    would be a sort of "cell", like a white blood cell, for instance.
    Now, what happens when the body starts to die from, say, cold or hunger? The
    body starts to shut down body processes that aren't as important in order to
    try to save itself as a whole. So, you lose heat to your fingers and toes, or
    your body starts to cannibalize its own tissues, all in an effort to keep the
    brain alive. It literally starts to kill itself off to try to save itself. Now,
    if the world is a creature, and the world is dying (the flame is its soul, and
    thus, its life source.), then what would it start to kill off in order to try
    to survive? Now, this process is obviously a bit muddled since humans have a
    stronger sense of survival than the normal body cell and can, as such, mess
    with this process, but this is simply a way of explaining this theory.”



    So let’s get started in researching this theory!


    First off I’d like to mention fractalization again. As far
    as the world goes we know that the first flame (world’s soul/time) came about
    during the age of ancients (neutral/grey/unmoving). During this time, positives
    (white) and negatives (black) we’re born. I.e. Life/Death, Heat/Cold,
    Light/Dark, Natural/Unnatural, Sun/Moon etc…. Please do not confuse “positive”
    and “negative” with good or bad as in I’m only using these words to show
    opposites. Also, when I say the word time I do not mean time in the traditional
    sense, I’m talking about a Life/Death Cycle.


    With that being mentioned let’s look at Gwyn and his
    children. His first born was the epitome of the positive (white,sun) while his
    last born Gwyndolin is the very opposite and represents negative
    (black,moon). Gwyn would represent the
    neutral/grey/unmoving. Let’s look a little further back before we get to Gywn. The
    reason I use the word unmoving is because of the nature of the world before the
    first flame/world’s soul was awakened. For example, the Arch Trees and Ancient
    Dragons were both made of Stone (Reference: Caduceus Round Shield, Demon’s
    Hammer, Dark Souls Intro, Stone Dragon of Ash Lake). When you think of stone you think of
    something that is a fixture, it doesn’t age in the same way that we associate
    that word with. With nothing to attack it or move it, it is “Everlasting”. This stone was a part of the world. The Arch
    Trees roots went to its very core and can be considered a part of the planet
    itself. The Stone Dragons I believe were born from the Arch Trees, and
    therefore also a part of the planet. However, from this point of view you could
    also look at the Arch Trees and Stone Dragons as parasites…However, I reserve
    that name for a different group of Serpents…


    The big question that
    will more than likely never be answered is “Where did the First Flame come
    from?” If at the time, the only things around during the age of ancients were
    the Arch Trees and Stone Dragons, one could assume that the First Flame came
    from one of the Dragons. But what would cause an unmoving neutral stone to
    breath fire? I think somewhere in the roots of the Arch Trees coiling around
    the core of the world were the Primordial Serpents, Parasites in the darkness…
    In an attempt to remove these Serpents that were disturbing the “natural”
    balance of things one or more of the dragons breathed fire underground where
    they believed the serpents were hiding. From this “Chaos” the First Flame was
    born, and started a chain of events that we see as the Age of Ancients to the
    Age of Fire to the Age of Dark/continuation of the Age of Fire. Thus the
    “time”cycle was born, and the natural/unmoving stone flow of time was distorted.


    So this flame coming from a Stone Dragon, which was born
    from the Stone Arch Trees indirectly, came from the planet in defense of
    itself. However, these parasites were not as primitive as their name would lead
    one to believe. When the embers of the soul of the world (which are seen
    throughout the intro) created disparity and created humans, the serpents saw
    their chance to seize power. Weather
    they lead the primeval humans to obtain the Lords Souls or not is up for
    debate, but in the end the result was the same. With Gywn, Nito, and the Witch
    disturbing the natural flow of things the planet/dragons/arch trees had to
    defend themselves and return things to the way they were. This also explains
    why the Witch of Izalith and Nito are attacking the Arch Trees, because the
    Dragons are born from them. In addition,
    I’ve speculated that Seath the Scaleless was once human but after researching
    this I might resend my former belief…because with what we’ve said above his
    existence is explained by the First Flame. He is the anti-dragon, the opposite
    of his brethren, scale-less and “mortal”.


    There is an undisclosed time between when Gywn and the other
    Lords obtained their souls until the end of the Dragon wars. In that
    undisclosed amount of time nations were constructed and fell and Frampt
    befriended Gywn. In addition, the Dark Soul was obtained by the Pygmy and in
    some way shattered and spread. With all we’ve talked about we have yet to
    discuss the Dark Soul. Its existence is explained by the disparity talked about
    in the intro. I believe that the Dark Soul’s creation was a result of the First
    Flame and did not come from the Flame itself. Let me explain, if you look at
    Gywn’s hands in the intro, they look almost burned. I believe Gywn pulled his
    Lord Soul directly from the First Flame and caused embers and fragments of the
    First Flame to move about. Also, in the intro we see what looks like a ring of
    flame surrounding the area where the Undead like creatures come from. Flame
    gives off light, which in turn creates shadow. In the middle of this circle was
    concentrated shadow, and it was here the Pygmy found the Dark Soul. Meaning the
    Dark Soul indirectly came from the First Flame and not straight from it, which is
    why the Dark Soul is so small when we see it.


    I believe this also helps us understand the Dark Sign. I’ve
    said before that I believe the Dark Sign is a direct result of the Dark Soul
    being shattered and spread across the world. I think this is why the Dark Sign
    is a ring of fire; it is a symbol of the birth place of the Dark Soul.


    DLC speculation:


    Spoiler:
    I
    think we actually get to see this happen in the DLC that has come out. When
    Manus’s “humanity” goes wild and we defeat him, we shatter the vessel of the
    Dark Soul and spread the Dark Soul/Humanity thus spreading the Dark Sign.
    Meaning we (the player character) are the reason (accidently) for the spread of
    the Dark Sign. Again the events of time were manipulated by the Primordial
    Serpents….Parasites of this world. This is further proved by the way you are
    addressed in the new content. Every NPC refers to you as “human” not hollow, or
    Undead, but human.



    When Gywn links the flame it is but a temporary fix, he is
    kindling the First Flame in an attempt to boost the power of the soul of the
    world. Which he believes would remove the Dark Sign and return the world to his
    form of natural order. However, he has been misled this entire time by Frampt
    and the true natural power that did exist he personally removed (Arch Trees,
    Stone Dragons). We know the world is attempting to revert to the ways of old
    when we visit Ash Lake. We see the descendants of the Stone Arch Trees, and a
    new Stone Dragon (Reference: Caduceus Round Shield, Ash Lake, Great Hollow,
    Stone Dragon items). To get to Ash Lake
    we have to go through the “Great Hollow”. Interestingly enough, I believe the
    name of this zone is a direct reference to what has happened to the planet. The
    First Flame is dying; the world is becoming one “Great Hollow”.


    I will post the remainder of this soon, I’ve got a lot more
    to speculate on. Thanks Shkar for getting me looking into this it’s very
    interesting. I know you won’t agree with most of the things I’m saying and I
    understand. I’ll put in all of my item references when I post the final bit of
    this.


    Last edited by Deathsitexxi on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:38 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Analysis Series: First Flame

    Post by Shkar on Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:37 pm

    I will state my (opposing) beliefs for most of your theories here. We have to take the intro at its word, especially because we are actually talking about the flame. And the "flame" was what moved the world from its state of neutrality where everything was gray, misty, stone, and had never lived. A complete, neutral state. And then the "flame" created light and burned away the mist, and life sprang up.

    Yet the dragons and the stone archtrees were living things. They had to be; they have descendents to this day. They could be killed. Yet the intro says that life came AFTER the flame. Now, you may be like my lore nemesis Doughguy and say that they weren't "alive" because there was no death yet. I don't even think that I can get in to my rebuttal without sounding like I'm ranting, so I won't. Just know that I find this an invalid argument.

    So we have the creation of light, life, heat; sounds like a metaphor for the creation or birth of the world to me. The "appearance" of the soul of the world led to it being alive. But as we all know, this game doesn't like things being permanent or neutral. So if the soul is the source of all life, and the earth's soul is fading/dimming/dying, what happens to the world?

    If we only live because the world does, what happens to us when it dies?


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    Re: Analysis Series: First Flame

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:46 pm

    Shkar wrote:I will state my (opposing) beliefs for most of your theories here. We have to take the intro at its word, especially because we are actually talking about the flame. And the "flame" was what moved the world from its state of neutrality where everything was gray, misty, stone, and had never lived. A complete, neutral state. And then the "flame" created light and burned away the mist, and life sprang up.

    Yet the dragons and the stone archtrees were living things. They had to be; they have descendents to this day. They could be killed. Yet the intro says that life came AFTER the flame. Now, you may be like my lore nemesis Doughguy and say that they weren't "alive" because there was no death yet. I don't even think that I can get in to my rebuttal without sounding like I'm ranting, so I won't. Just know that I find this an invalid argument.

    So we have the creation of light, life, heat; sounds like a metaphor for the creation or birth of the world to me. The "appearance" of the soul of the world led to it being alive. But as we all know, this game doesn't like things being permanent or neutral. So if the soul is the source of all life, and the earth's soul is fading/dimming/dying, what happens to the world?

    If we only live because the world does, what happens to us when it dies?

    I've got more to post but it keeps going in the general direction you can see I'm heading. I can actually see where you're coming from on the Stone Dragons not being "alive" before the flame because we see them unmoving before we see the flame. With that being said, I just can't see where the flame would have come from if they (the dragons) were not alive at the time. I'm still researching right now, but if you have any information that could help me please point me in the right direction. Thanks again!


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    Re: Analysis Series: First Flame

    Post by Shkar on Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:54 pm

    Deathsitexxi wrote:
    Shkar wrote:I will state my (opposing) beliefs for most of your theories here. We have to take the intro at its word, especially because we are actually talking about the flame. And the "flame" was what moved the world from its state of neutrality where everything was gray, misty, stone, and had never lived. A complete, neutral state. And then the "flame" created light and burned away the mist, and life sprang up.

    Yet the dragons and the stone archtrees were living things. They had to be; they have descendents to this day. They could be killed. Yet the intro says that life came AFTER the flame. Now, you may be like my lore nemesis Doughguy and say that they weren't "alive" because there was no death yet. I don't even think that I can get in to my rebuttal without sounding like I'm ranting, so I won't. Just know that I find this an invalid argument.

    So we have the creation of light, life, heat; sounds like a metaphor for the creation or birth of the world to me. The "appearance" of the soul of the world led to it being alive. But as we all know, this game doesn't like things being permanent or neutral. So if the soul is the source of all life, and the earth's soul is fading/dimming/dying, what happens to the world?

    If we only live because the world does, what happens to us when it dies?

    I've got more to post but it keeps going in the general direction you can see I'm heading. I can actually see where you're coming from on the Stone Dragons not being "alive" before the flame because we see them unmoving before we see the flame. With that being said, I just can't see where the flame would have come from if they (the dragons) were not alive at the time. I'm still researching right now, but if you have any information that could help me please point me in the right direction. Thanks again!

    The flame just... was. We don't really know for certain what caused the big bang to occur, but that's still the general belief as to where the universe came from. It's like trying to say "yeah, the world is fine for it to just appear, but for it to start ALIVE?" In order for a dragon to give the world its soul, the dragon's soul would have to be much, MUCH more powerful than the world's at its highest. One could arguably say that it doesn't take much to REJUVENATE a soul, but to enhance one? Just look at what happens to the soul values leveling up. You spend 100k to level up and it only increases how much you give off from dying by 10k.


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    Re: Analysis Series: First Flame

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:03 pm

    Shkar wrote:
    Deathsitexxi wrote:
    Shkar wrote:I will state my (opposing) beliefs for most of your theories here. We have to take the intro at its word, especially because we are actually talking about the flame. And the "flame" was what moved the world from its state of neutrality where everything was gray, misty, stone, and had never lived. A complete, neutral state. And then the "flame" created light and burned away the mist, and life sprang up.

    Yet the dragons and the stone archtrees were living things. They had to be; they have descendents to this day. They could be killed. Yet the intro says that life came AFTER the flame. Now, you may be like my lore nemesis Doughguy and say that they weren't "alive" because there was no death yet. I don't even think that I can get in to my rebuttal without sounding like I'm ranting, so I won't. Just know that I find this an invalid argument.

    So we have the creation of light, life, heat; sounds like a metaphor for the creation or birth of the world to me. The "appearance" of the soul of the world led to it being alive. But as we all know, this game doesn't like things being permanent or neutral. So if the soul is the source of all life, and the earth's soul is fading/dimming/dying, what happens to the world?

    If we only live because the world does, what happens to us when it dies?

    I've got more to post but it keeps going in the general direction you can see I'm heading. I can actually see where you're coming from on the Stone Dragons not being "alive" before the flame because we see them unmoving before we see the flame. With that being said, I just can't see where the flame would have come from if they (the dragons) were not alive at the time. I'm still researching right now, but if you have any information that could help me please point me in the right direction. Thanks again!

    The flame just... was. We don't really know for certain what caused the big bang to occur, but that's still the general belief as to where the universe came from. It's like trying to say "yeah, the world is fine for it to just appear, but for it to start ALIVE?" In order for a dragon to give the world its soul, the dragon's soul would have to be much, MUCH more powerful than the world's at its highest. One could arguably say that it doesn't take much to REJUVENATE a soul, but to enhance one? Just look at what happens to the soul values leveling up. You spend 100k to level up and it only increases how much you give off from dying by 10k.


    I probably wasn’t too clear by the end because I have not
    posted all of my findings but what my bottom line will be is that the Arch
    Trees where the soul of the planet, which bore the Stone Dragons, which in turn
    bore the First Flame. With the true Stone Arch Trees and Stone Dragons gone of
    course the First Flame (what’s left of the world’s soul) is dying. The First
    Flame was powerful enough to create life and the reason it did is because it
    was uncontrolled once it was unleashed. The Dragons were killed because the
    Witch, and Nito destroyed the source of their power the Arch Trees. However,
    you make valid points and I’ll need to double back and check my findings.


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