Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

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    Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Acarnatia on Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:02 pm

    With the release of the Prepare to Die content, we have now gotten to see the remaining three of Gwyn's 'four knights', Lord's Blade Ciaran, Hawkeye Gough and Sir Artorias. I find it odd that both Artorias and Ciaran wear almost exclusively black and blue and Gough dark grey and brown while their fourth member, Dragonslayer Ornstein, is entirely in a brass/gold armor set, as is Executioner Smough. This raises the question of why Ornstein's outfit is so different from the other knights. Now, this could be only because he is the captain of four knights. That does raise the question, then, of why there are several other characters who are related to or are serving Gwyndolyn (and Gwyndolyn's own mask) of a similar looking material in sheen and color. As is already known, most of the enemies in Anor Londo are in fact illusions that disappear when Gwynevere is attacked. This could very well be because they are in fact testing the potential chosen undead to ensure the Lordvessel is given to the correct person-or is that they, like so many of the other gold-bronze enemies in Anor Londo, are in fact illusions with the exception of the Lady of the Darkling, the Keeper of the Anor Londo Bonfire, and one of the two humans who replace the Sentinels just before the Smough and Ornstein boss room when Anor Londo is cast into twilight-both of whom serve Gwyndolyn- and the real Smough and Ornstein are elsewhere? I find this to be very interesting, and considering what we already know Gwyndolyn to be responsible for and capable of, this seems to me to be a plausible possibility. I think this cannot be tested, though, as Smough and Ornstein must be defeated to reach Gwynevere to cast Anor Londo into twilight and dispel the illusions throughout it.
    What do you think?


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Sergeant Soy on Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:20 pm

    You make some sense, and I know what you're getting at. But you forgot two very important things about this: You CAN actually fight O and S in twilight, if you go and get the Darkmoon Seance Ring and kill Gwyndolin. At least, I'm fairly certain you can, I remember joining the Darkmoon Blades before fighting O and S, so yeah. And also, and this is more speculatory, but I think that the different colors for everyone in Oolacile is because they're in field dress, and not acting as guards for the amazing chest. And Oolacile happened years before you fight O and S. And you obtain their souls. And Ornstein drops his ring. So, I don't believe they are illusions.


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Acarnatia on Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:46 pm

    Plenty of of illusionary enemies drop souls and items-. the giants and sentinels drop the giants armor, shield and halberd, and the imps drop the demon spear, so it seems plausible that Gwyndolyn could create or fake the souls and Leo Ring as well.
    There's nothing anywhere to suggest that they have separate 'field armor' and 'showy armor'. In fact, there's even a crumbling statue showing that that is indeed Ornstein's design-though, being granite, it doesn't give a clue as to the color. Furthermore, out of all of the servants of the divinities that we see, only those serving Gwyndolyn (with the exception of Knight Lautrec, who is still serving a deity) wear armor of that brass-gold color. Gwyn's other knights are silver (other than those that are burned black); the Way of White characters are either white or grey, predominantly; Oswald is black; (there seems to be a reoccuring theme here) Solaire (if he is indeed the Sun's Firstborn) is largely green, white and steel-silver. And the other knight's gear, noteably Artorias's, makes note of how it was blue that was his significant and 'honorable' color-which is also shown on Ciaran, whereas Gough's armor is similar enough in color to Artorias and Ciaran's, just without any blue, and certainly not any red as there is on Ornstein.
    And on another note, the two humans who are summoned in place of the Sentinels when Anor Londo is in twilight are similar in theme to Smough and Ornstein; one is in big, heavy armor with a huge weapon similar to Smough; the other is lightly armored using the Balder Side Sword- noteable for going well with the LEO RING and one of it's preferred tactics is to parry and riposte for VERY heavy damage (note that Ornstein drops the Leo Ring), so he is rather similar in style to Ornstein.
    And, no, it is killing GWYNEVERE that puts Anor Londo in twilight-I've actually tested that. Only attacking Gwynevere casts Anor Londo in twilight and dispels the enemies. If you kill Gwyndolyn before you get to Gwynevere, then when you kill her he just doesn't say anything- Anor Londo just turns dark. This may be because if you did that and Anor Londo turned dark, then Gwynevere would either disappear or may not give Lordvessal to you-either of which would prevent you from getting the Lordvessal and which would effectively make it impossible to complete the playthrough.


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:25 pm

    I prefer the term constructs because as you say, there's a lot of physical proof those things aren't illusory. They sure ain't hitting like illusions. Your theory is possible but two thoughts:

    Statue evidence shows O&S did some remodeling or maybe done for them. An Ornstein statue makes sense. He was a knight. But where are the other knight statues? There aren't any. Why would the executioner get one instead? Well, when they were made his status was equal to Ornstein. Odd. Item descriptions say he wasn't. At least not in their prime. Long story short, the remodel suggests O&S took control or were handed control. Ornstein and Smough being so well coordinated means they get along well. Smough isn't a nice guy. Conclusion: neither one is very nice. Couple corruption and power and suddenly glittery armor seems like a good idea. All the better to show their glory. And status as top of the sunlight food chain. Also, the ceremonial theory put out above makes sense too.

    Also, it's true even confirmed constructs drop souls. Since everything costs souls or is made from them it seems it makes sense Gwyndolin had to use some to make enemies. However, it doesn't make as much sense that he would be able to duplicate a special soul like they drop. Also on this train, Domhnall sells armor that is just like what we see. It could be he makes it to look like a "fake" set I admit but there's no evidence that anything he sells is not genuine to reality.

    With all that being said, I won't say you're wrong because hell, who knows with this game

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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Acarnatia on Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:18 am

    This is actually a theory, and I myself am still wondering about it. The armor Domnall sells does question this. (though, just like the Souls and the Leo Ring, these could potentially be permanent illusions, constructs or what have you) I may just be overcomplicating it or reading too much into it; or this may be accurate. Either way, I agree that there's currently no way to test it (unless there's glitches and those wouldn't really prove anything, either).
    I also just realized that I have not heard them say anything in the combat, regardless of how hard they got hit or when either one died. And as for the part on them 'not hitting like illusions'-neither do any of the others.


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Mr. Tart on Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:51 am

    Don't feel like reading it all right now.
    When i first read the title i thought it was gonna say ''Are Smough and Ornstein homosexuals?'' Look Skyward

    I like the way you think, it seems quite possible.

    And as a reply to Skare. Have you ever played Dead Space 2? Isaac is faced with illusions of his wife which leads to himself almost commiting suicide, though, to him, it appears as if the illusions are the once doing it. Think of it the same way here, it could quite possibly be illusions simply fooling us as whenever we take a hit we hurt ourselves, though we never experience it. But who knows? happy

    Edit: Just an attempt at trying to prove my point possible, think of it as a way of us getting closer to hollowing due to the dark sign, having us closely going mad, or simply Gwyndolin making us crazy.


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Shkar on Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:49 am

    What, you guys really think those pillars break themselves?


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Mr. Tart on Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:05 am

    Spoiler:
    Ghosts :affraid:


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Rarayn on Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:10 am

    Shkar wrote:What, you guys really think those pillars break themselves?
    Pillars that are hit by giant hammers and spears don't break like that, man. The O&S Bossfight was an inside job.
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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Shkar on Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:41 am

    Rarayn wrote:
    Shkar wrote:What, you guys really think those pillars break themselves?
    Pillars that are hit by giant hammers and spears don't break like that, man. The O&S Bossfight was an inside job.

    Excuse me, I think I would KNOW just how good giant hammers are at breaking pillars. I have 30 years of experience.


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Rarayn on Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:48 am

    Shkar wrote:
    Rarayn wrote:
    Shkar wrote:What, you guys really think those pillars break themselves?
    Pillars that are hit by giant hammers and spears don't break like that, man. The O&S Bossfight was an inside job.

    Excuse me, I think I would KNOW just how good giant hammers are at breaking pillars. I have 30 years of experience.

    You're just a pawn of the Gwyndolin Administration.

    Gwyndolin conspired with Seath to place magical detonation crystals inside the pillars. The Gwyndolin Administration must be punished for this heinous act!
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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:10 am

    Sorry, bad wording on my part. I wasn't trying to say O&S hitting you mean they're the real deal inherently. I actually meant that all of the creatures that disappear harm you and can drop presents. Meaning, nothing that disappears when the sun does is an "illusion" in the normal sense of the word. That's why I use "construct." I wasn't applying this to just O&S. The same thing could apply in that they're made by someone else but still are physically there.

    The reason I think they're the real deal (again not saying you're wrong) is all the evidence after the sun is gone. The statues to their glory still remain, the Giant Blacksmith can still draw out the power of their souls. And don't worry about reading too much into it Arcanatia, that's exactly what this section is for. big grin

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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Acarnatia on Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:39 pm

    As for the statues, those wouldn't necessarily be Gwyndolyn's constructs; I never thought that Smough and Ornstein were completely fabricated by Gwyndolyn, only that the player is perhaps actually fighting a replica of them instead of the real ones. It's also possible that they are both already dead (like Artorias) and Gwyndolyn is using these constructs to test and weed out any false Chosen Undead.
    And in regards to him making 'permanent gear' or 'that being just too powerful of a construct'-he made a fake sun. I think that, when considering everything else he's running at the same time that he'd be quite capable of that, too. He is a god, after all.


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:15 pm

    Those are definitely valid points and actually a little of what I tried to clarify. Again, perfectly plausible.

    On the subject of power though, did he create a fake sun? Or did he create a bright light? There's a big difference. One can create and sustain life and heat. The other just goes with the decor better. Also, is he running everything at the same time? Is he running anything currently? What happens if you kill him first? It doesn't all just vanish, so he isn't sustaining everything at the moment we find him. That means it's now running independently of Gwyndolin. So then, did he make it all at the same time? Or was it over a longer period. Did he do it all by himself? These are all great questions to try to measure his power but sadly we don't have any good answers. It's without a question that he IS powerful. He does some unique things that are pretty incredible.

    Going back to terminology for this....I use "construct" generally because there's a physical presence to most of his tricks but more importantly they don't die with him. Gwynevere can be sitting pretty without little bro kicking around. That's the main reason to use construct. In her case, there's a likely physical element since she gives you something. But is everything a "construct" rather than an illusion? Look at his doorway. Without the ring there's a statue in the way. With the ring, nothing. Did the statue actually disappear or does the ring just allow a different perception? What about his arena? Is he so powerful that he can stretch a room into the infinite (seemingly)? Or is he using Jedi mind tricks?

    Going back full circle I'll ask a familiar question: Did he create a fake sun? Or, is that one of the illusions?

    For a reference point regarding power, Gwyn passed fragments of his soul (theoretically the strongest one) around like a doobie. The end result is beings that are weaker individually than either Ornstein or Smough individually. One King? Not a threat. O&S are easy individually too but they have a better shot at it than one king. So extrapolating the data: If it took a piece of Gwyn's soul to elevate mortals (alluded to be pillars of their society) to the power we see, how strong did Gwyndolin start off as, if he can create Ornstein AND Smough from essentially nothing AND gargoyles AND etc etc etc? What did he sacrifice to make good on all THAT?

    I know it sounds like I'm trying to negate your argument and honestly I'm not, I just enjoy the back and forth with the theory. You could be right as rain and Gwyndolin simply made copies of what already existed. That's absolutely 100% possible. For me though, I do question if he is strong enough to create replicas of Titans or infuse automatons with an equivalent of the original soul.

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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Mr. Tart on Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:21 pm

    I have just now decided that all that occurs in Anor Londo is now an illusion. We never go to Anor Londo, we just find a corpse with Smoughs/Ornsteins soul on it. Whether it be lying were you faced Iron Golem or not. Yep, i'm crazy like that. :|


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:23 pm

    It's all those mushroom spores wafting up from the forest below. Can make a man see some crazy things :shock:

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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Mr. Tart on Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:28 pm

    You said it! Wouldn't surprise me if our character took some mushrooms while in the Asylum way before we started taking control of them. Would explain everything. :shock:


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Acarnatia on Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:31 pm

    We also cannot be sure of how strong Seath or the Four Kings ( the beings Gwyn bequeathed parts of his soul to) are now in respect to how strong they used to be. Gwyn, now reduced to swinging a single flaming sword, used to be throwing around lightning bolts capable of frying the Everlasting Dragons. (you know... the ones we can't put a scratch on with our great lightning bolts?) Furthermore, the moon has often been associated with magic, illusions and transformations in folklore and modern fantasy alike. (and note the reccuring weapon the Moonlight Greatsword that FromSoftware has repeatedly used) Gwyndolyn is the GOD of the moon and may very well still be in full strength (and just suck at combat magic-it would make sense) and could therefore be quite capable of such feats.


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by vatar5 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:03 am

    Gwyndolin isn't the God of Moon.
    Belonging to his armor set,she was raised as a girl because of his affinity with the moon. Nowhere it is specified Gwyndolin is a God.
    Also,the fact that a mere Undead can kill Gods means that gods aren't omnipotent beings who can manipulate time/Destiny and thunder ban-hammer. Gods are just humans who acquires great power and then claimed themselves as Gods.
    Yet,they may have lost great power as time goes on and Gods becoming weaker than the Sheeps they lead.


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Acarnatia on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:52 pm

    Then Gwyndolyn is at least a powerful demigod who is already pulling the player's strings. God or not, the amount of magical might he possesses is evident.


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by sinspaw on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:47 am

    Interesting discussion.

    I'm not sure if they are an illusion or not, it's plausible either way. One thing that tickles me is... the group is 'together' when we go to oolacile except for Ornstein, so where is he back then? It could suggest that Ornstein never really leaves Anor Londo, and if so, could indeed be guarding fake Gwynevere. That theory brings the question within it, do S&O know that it's fake Gwynevere? Do they even care? Or are they in cahoots with Gwyndolin? Anor Londo is such a weird place the more I think about it... I can't tell what's real or what isn't.

    Also, I will say that the whole armor set thing doesn't mean much to me. The fact that they are a group of knights serving Gwyn doesn't mean they have to wear matching outfits at all. I don't think Ornsteins armor reveals anything in that particular respect.
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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:09 pm

    The only reason I bring up the armor is because he's the ONLY one of the Four whose armor is not similar and then Smough who is not even one of the Four's armor is similar in style to his.

    And, again, I think this theory is neither proveable or disproveable. It's just a possibility I'm suggesting.


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    Re: Are Smough and Ornstein Illusions? (spoilers)

    Post by TheLolrider on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:11 am

    I've always thought the way S&O were presented was a little weird.

    When you get there, Smough is just hanging out. He's not doing anything. There are no subjects to govern, no policies to make. Anor Londo is self running, basically. It's established that most every enemy in Anor Londo is an illusion (or a construct) so he really has no reason to be sitting on the floor of a church for kicks.

    Then Ornstein drops in from the balcony like some sort of jerk. What was he doing? My guess is he was guarding Gwynevere. Obviously, both of them were, but they were probably just guarding different entrances. This is the biggest problem, because of Ornstein was one of the 4 knights, he definitely would have known what the real Gwynevere looked like.

    Following that logic, he would have known that what he was guarding was an illusion. So why guard it at all? Why guard an illusion with your life? He literally accomplishes nothing by dieing the way he does. Also, if he is real, he's basically been hanging around in an empty city for a couple of centuries.

    It's possible that they are real, though. Smough laughs during the fight, I believe (although that doesn't really prove anything. If Gwyndolin can make light, he can probably make sound too).

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