Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

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    Do Dragon Weapons need a buff?

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    Abiathar82
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    Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Abiathar82 on Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:04 pm

    Ok so I have 1 50/40 build and one 40/40 build (STR/DEX), so obviously I am big on weapons. I have tried mosty weapons atleast a few times and definately have my favorites. I really like the look of all the Dragon Weapons , the problem is all of the STR Dragon weapons are not great. Especially when you consider what is required to upgrade them. That and the very high stat requirements , which are never used on most of them due to having very low scaling or none at all. Anyway I would really like to see some kind of buff added to them. The simplest would probably be to just add scaling.

    Quick comparison , Demon Great Machete +15 and Dragon Greatsword. Demon Great Machete is the second heaviest UGS at 18 pounds. If you had 50 STR , which is the stat requirement for the Dragon Greatsword , the DGM has an attack of 646. The Dragon GS weighs 24 pounds and is slightly slower than the DGM and when it is +5 has an attack of 585. That is a difference of 61 attack , I dont think the R2 2H attack makes up for that , especially with the added weight. Ok rant over;)
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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:16 pm

    i'd say just add d rank scaling other wise they'd be too strong, for the drake sword have double d for str and dex.


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    Rynn
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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Rynn on Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:22 pm

    The dragon weapon R2's actually do make up for it if you can hit with them. They hit like a truck, doing 800+ damage.
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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Abiathar82 on Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:34 pm

    @Sparkly - totally aggree. @Rynn - true but most of the animations for the special attacks are very slow and very hard to use unless you are fighting a slow enemy , plus you are having to constantly repair the weapon then and also 50k souls and 10 Scales to upgrade a weapon , good god man.
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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Joichiro on Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:45 pm

    The dragon GS should have a buff, but not adding scaling to it. Maybe raising the Ar to 600 and lowering the weight of the weapon to 20. That would make it more viable, since you won't be counting with the Dwgr post patch.
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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Rudmed on Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:31 pm

    Dragon weapons are good if used in the right area. For example in a narrow corridor....Dragon Greatsword would be very effective, in an open field...not so much.


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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by BLA1NE on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:48 pm

    I actually don't think they need to be buffed. Their damage is not bad for their stats requirements, despite their lack of scaling, and their special abilities are very strong.

    But I wouldn't be opposed to them getting buffed, for one reason: if they were stronger, more people would be using them, and they're the most fun weapons to parry in PvP! twisted


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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:19 pm

    I think the dragon greatsword should be able to be buffed like the dragon bone fist,dragon tooth, and dragon king greataxe. I know drake is technically a dragon weapon(drakes aren't dragons tongue ) but i guess having it so it could be buffed would be cool, maybe lower its base AR a bit.


    Last edited by FruitPunchNinja on Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Glutebrah on Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:13 pm

    They should scale with the dragon covenant, when in dragon form.

    I always thought covenants should give bonuses to certain weapons.... Chaos covant gives scaling to chaos weapons and spells... .. Etc..


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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Joichiro on Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:45 pm

    why dragon axe is buffable and dragon gs doesn't? D:
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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Seignar on Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:09 pm

    I think the GS and GA should be buffed in AR, also the GS being buffable. In addition, the BF should have a faster R2.

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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by BoilerFan8472 on Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:11 pm

    Just give them some sort of scaling, be it with a covenant or just a D rating. DKGA special is like being kicked in the balls multiple times and then having them jumped on and then parking a car on them...

    That said if it hits it is basically game over for the receiver.


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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Joichiro on Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:04 am

    i'll definitely make a FR build with this weapon. it look so beast.

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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Ryndis on Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:32 am

    I think the problem with dragon weapons stems from strength weapons being bad overall. Dragon tooth, dragon great sword, dragon king axe all have absurd strength requirements. This wouldnt be a problem if the weight of the weapons werent absolutely absurd. Farming souls for repair powders and using their special moves carefully makes them incredibly strong. The long animations of their strong attacks pretty much REQUIRE high poise which means you are probably going to be fat rolling or medium rolling at best.

    I dont bring up drake sword because i think it was intended to be a noob weapon, and obsidian sword is just downright broken.
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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:17 pm

    I think people tend to forget the bonus you get for magic and fire defense. Also i was testing it out, the drake sword is actually a pretty good weapon for builds that don't have more then 10dex. It is not super high damage or anything, but it is a good option for a fast weapon to punish backstab attempts. I tend to think the Pike or Spear is the best Alt weapon for 50str/10dex builds though, Drake still can be viable.


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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Ryndis on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:18 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:I think people tend to forget the bonus you get for magic and fire defense. Also i was testing it out, the drake sword is actually a pretty good weapon for builds that don't have more then 10dex. It is not super high damage or anything, but it is a good option for a fast weapon to punish backstab attempts. I tend to think the Pike or Spear is the best Alt weapon for 50str/10dex builds though, Drake still can be viable.


    I used to really like the extra defense but i still feel like resistances are a very poor way to scale your survivability. Health just feels better and until i have someone to actively test resistances with me, i probably wont ever like dragon weapons for their resists.

    The resists i think are a tradeoff for their stat requirements. Flat damage + Higher resists for higher stat requirements, as opposed to elemental weapons with lower requirements for split damage. With vitality being so unreasonable strong of a survival stat, elemental weapons will almost always win out over dragon weapons. The outlier of this are the 2h strong attacks.
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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by BLA1NE on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:40 pm

    Like I said before, despite their lack of scaling, the AR of Dragon weapons is not bad. With only 37 Str you can wield a Dragon weapon 2-handed--that is not a high stat requirement. At that Str, you also get more than optimal scaling from any other Str weapon. So, at 37 Str, you can compare the Dragon Greatsword +5's flat 585 AR with the Demon Great Machete's 650--the highest of all Ultra Greatswords.

    The DGS has a lower AR, but you get the benefit of the ranged special attack. The DGS also boosts defensive stats. It's true that it can't be buffed, but let's not forget buffs require stats. All those points you would need to put in Int or Fth to get the buff, you can put into End instead to get higher equip weight--with which to get the poise you need, and even more defense. So compared to the buffable (and buffs wear off) DGM, the DGS provides you with a defensive boost and a special attack and the possibility for better defensive stats, at the cost of some AR. Doesn't sound like a bad trade-off at all, to me.

    And that was comparing the DGS to the DGM. Compared to the Zwei and Greatsword, for pure Str builds, the DGS is actually stronger.


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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Seignar on Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:16 am

    Like I said before, despite their lack of scaling, the AR of Dragon
    weapons is not bad. With only 37 Str you can wield a Dragon weapon
    2-handed--that is not a high stat requirement. At that Str, you also get
    more than optimal scaling from any other Str weapon. So, at 37 Str, you
    can compare the Dragon Greatsword +5's flat 585 AR with the Demon Great
    Machete's 650--the highest of all Ultra Greatswords.

    The DGS has
    a lower AR, but you get the benefit of the ranged special attack. The
    DGS also boosts defensive stats. It's true that it can't be buffed, but
    let's not forget buffs require stats. All those points you would
    need to put in Int or Fth to get the buff, you can put into End instead
    to get higher equip weight--with which to get the poise you need, and
    even more defense. So compared to the buffable (and buffs wear off) DGM,
    the DGS provides you with a defensive boost and a special attack and
    the possibility for better defensive stats, at the cost of some AR.
    Doesn't sound like a bad trade-off at all, to me.

    And that was comparing the DGS to the DGM. Compared to the Zwei and Greatsword, for pure Str builds, the DGS is actually stronger.
    You only need 34 STR to 2-hand it. I have to disagree with you. The exact problem with DGS is that it needs 50 STR (about 7 more points minimum) while you can use the DGM at 40 with better power. The Zwei has about 40 lower AR for saving you...14 weight...for better armor!

    The ranged special has very little use since a 2-handed DGS is an instant warning of a possible special, which is in fact blockable and easily avoidable, not to mention easily punishable. 20+ Magic/Fire is NOT a good trade-off for lower AR and 6 more weight than the strongest UGS. With 6 weight, you can add any piece of armor that will grant you more than what it offers you and even then some more.

    Even in pure STR builds I would use the Zwei simply because I'm trading in 40 AR for 14 weight (or 8 if you use the more powerful DGM), which would allow me to wear better armor and increase my poise while maintaining a better roll. In addition, the Zwei could be 1H for less predictability.

    In AR and benefits, the DGS seems good on paper, but it is horrible in practice. The Zwei and DGM are more practical for various reasons.


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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Ryndis on Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:20 am

    Seignar wrote:
    Like I said before, despite their lack of scaling, the AR of Dragon
    weapons is not bad. With only 37 Str you can wield a Dragon weapon
    2-handed--that is not a high stat requirement. At that Str, you also get
    more than optimal scaling from any other Str weapon. So, at 37 Str, you
    can compare the Dragon Greatsword +5's flat 585 AR with the Demon Great
    Machete's 650--the highest of all Ultra Greatswords.

    The DGS has
    a lower AR, but you get the benefit of the ranged special attack. The
    DGS also boosts defensive stats. It's true that it can't be buffed, but
    let's not forget buffs require stats. All those points you would
    need to put in Int or Fth to get the buff, you can put into End instead
    to get higher equip weight--with which to get the poise you need, and
    even more defense. So compared to the buffable (and buffs wear off) DGM,
    the DGS provides you with a defensive boost and a special attack and
    the possibility for better defensive stats, at the cost of some AR.
    Doesn't sound like a bad trade-off at all, to me.

    And that was comparing the DGS to the DGM. Compared to the Zwei and Greatsword, for pure Str builds, the DGS is actually stronger.
    You only need 34 STR to 2-hand it. I have to disagree with you. The exact problem with DGS is that it needs 50 STR (about 7 more points minimum) while you can use the DGM at 40 with better power. The Zwei has about 40 lower AR for saving you...14 weight...for better armor!

    The ranged special has very little use since a 2-handed DGS is an instant warning of a possible special, which is in fact blockable and easily avoidable, not to mention easily punishable. 20+ Magic/Fire is NOT a good trade-off for lower AR and 6 more weight than the strongest UGS. With 6 weight, you can add any piece of armor that will grant you more than what it offers you and even then some more.

    Even in pure STR builds I would use the Zwei simply because I'm trading in 40 AR for 14 weight (or 8 if you use the more powerful DGM), which would allow me to wear better armor and increase my poise while maintaining a better roll. In addition, the Zwei could be 1H for less predictability.

    In AR and benefits, the DGS seems good on paper, but it is horrible in practice. The Zwei and DGM are more practical for various reasons.

    This is what i mean. The dragon weapons are probably highly undervalued in terms of their raw attack power. However, almost every single dragon weapon is incredibly impractical to create a build around. This has little to do with dragon weapons though and more to do with high strength required weapons. They just happen to fall hand in hand.

    In another patch or in the next game Strength + equip burden need to have some form of synergy. Logically it makes sense, a weapon that requires more strength obviously is heavier. At the same time though, unless strength becomes a requirement on armors, it is equally illogical to fast roll in havels and be unable to one hand swing a katana.
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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Ghadis_God on Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:19 am

    The point of the Dragon weapons is that though they have much lower regular damage, their special attacks do more than a normal strong attack. If you're incredibly skillful at landing them, the dragon weapons provide a ranged option for a high strength slow rolling build that otherwise wouldn't be able to compete at range.


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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Tomhet on Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:01 am

    Funny, I was thinking about this today. Yes, I think the Dragon GS should be buffable, just like the Greataxe. I wouldn't use any other weapon if I could buff the DGS.
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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by BLA1NE on Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:11 am

    @Seignar

    34, that's what I meant... Judging by your arguments, you don't even care about the AR of Dragon weapons, since you'd rather use the weaker Zwei. What you mind is their predictability (something Str weapons suffer from in general), stats requirements, and mostly weight. Increasing the AR of Dragon weapons wouldn't address any of your issues with the weapons. Reducing the weight wouldn't be game breaking, but let's not forget there's one type of build that has ridiculous amounts of equip weight available to them: Dragons. They also suffer from a lack of defense. I know they make far from a perfect build, but wouldn't it make sense that the Dragon weapons were destined to be used by Dragonoids? So can you really ask for something to be buffed when you're not using it the way it was intended? Dragons also have a buff, by the way...

    And making them buffable (not your suggestion, but it's being tossed around) wouldn't address any of those issues either, and would actually only increase the stats burden on the build.


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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:18 pm

    i'd like a dragon axe, you know one with the battle axe move set, though i guess the golem axe might as well be... nvm make that a dragon small club...


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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Seignar on Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:21 pm

    @Blaine: But the issue with Dragonoids is that with no armor they have little poise and defenses and 20 is barely anything in defense. They will still easily get clobbered simply because they can't do what STR weapons are best at: trading blows. The problem is that they cost too much to use. Even if we removed the weight, we still have the STR requirement which could be used for VIT for added survivability. Also, despite the fact dragonoids have better equip burdens, unless you invest additional points to END past 40 or equip Havel's Ring, you will mid-roll while with the DGM, you can still fast roll AND equip a shield.

    The R2 simply aren't enough, because, as I said, they are expected (why else would you choose it over DGM?) and can be blocked or dodged (granted, the DGA is hard to dodge and harsh to block; but we speak for the UGS) on top of being easily punishable.

    Not that I won't admit it has its uses in invasions with a shockwave climbing walls and hitting people 30 feet higher up when they aren't expecting it or hitting people down dangerous walkways. It really is boss in those matters because of the obscene range it has. It isn't good in the dueling scene.

    So, Dragon weapons? Awesome invasion tools, horrible dueling weapons. Much like the Channeler's Trident.

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    Re: Do you think Dragon Weapons need a buff?

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:29 pm

    No, they stunlock and are annoying as ****. If someone could use darkmoon blade on them then it would be on the Nerf list very quickly.


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