Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

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    Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Derpwraith on Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:27 am

    I've been using these spells on my Darkmoon build, they seem to come in handy.

    Vow of Silence - This spell is quite good since it prevents casting any type of magic when they are nearby, making the battle a nightmare for pure casters, but it uses up two attunement slots. remember, the effect also works on you as well, so be sure to enchant your weapon if you do before you activate this spell.

    Karmic Justice - This one has been discussed a few times from what I've seen, pretty useful against people who use katanas or any other weapon that triggers bleeding. I have this ready when I'm facing people with such weapons, I let them spam R1 (I'm PS3 BTW) and hope that the AoE triggers before my bleed meter is full.

    I say these spells are quite a wonder for me, not sure about you though, lol.


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:29 am

    Sounds to me like you're wasting 3 attunement slots that could be used for something more viable. Like 9 casts of WotG lol.


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Derpwraith on Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:30 am

    ErrJon6661 wrote:Sounds to me like you're wasting 3 attunement slots that could be used for something more viable. Like 9 casts of WotG lol.
    What, so I can spam it like a nub?


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by vatar5 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:39 am

    You can also try to parry while using karmic justice.


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:18 am

    That was a joke hahaha. I'm surprised more people don't use vos. Especially since so many people seem to complain about various spells that are cast/spammed.


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Rynn on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:15 am

    how long does VoS even last?
    As for karmatic Justice, it's insanely good if combined with a shield that has less then 100% physical damage blocking, as then it can activate while blocking.
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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Jansports on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:24 am

    Justice and GCS go together like Bread and Butter baby! Spam at me CMW Pole!

    As for VoS it lasts 20-30 seconds? Not as long as PW I don't think but definately longer than TwoP

    Also I second 9 Casts of WoG, some people think you ran out after 6 HA!
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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by befowler on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:36 am

    Vow of silence lasts 30 seconds by default, plus more if you use lingering DCR. It's the best spell in the game, not even close. First, it lasts a long time, and has a really big radius. Second, it turns off everything. No WoG, no TWoP, no CSS, no GC or firestorms, not even any buffs or power within. It's amazing how many people suck at PvP when 2/3s or more of their build suddenly disappears. Third, nearly everyone except a few savvy mages who worry about it will mistake it for TWoP since the two have very similar cast animations and effects, meaning the typical "counter" is to stand there and try to cast an AoE spell like WoG/firestorm/gravelord sword dance. This is, of course, the worst possible choice since instead you just stand there waving a catalyst in confusion while getting pummeled.

    Finally, VoS is awesome for coop since it is like Great Magic Barrier for the entire party.


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Glutebrah on Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:02 am

    GMB > Vow of silence imo.

    instead of preventing them to cast when they are close to you, you just become immune (Except pyro) also works good against DMB, CMW. and only takes 1 spell slot


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Glutebrah on Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:05 am

    Rynn wrote:how long does VoS even last?
    As for karmatic Justice, it's insanely good if combined with a shield that has less then 100% physical damage blocking, as then it can activate while blocking.

    hmm i wonder.. can the self inflicted damage from Chaos blade trigger Karmatic Justice?


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Jansports on Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:14 am

    befowler wrote:Vow of silence lasts 30 seconds by default, plus more if you use lingering DCR. It's the best spell in the game, not even close. First, it lasts a long time, and has a really big radius. Second, it turns off everything. No WoG, no TWoP, no CSS, no GC or firestorms, not even any buffs or power within. It's amazing how many people suck at PvP when 2/3s or more of their build suddenly disappears. Third, nearly everyone except a few savvy mages who worry about it will mistake it for TWoP since the two have very similar cast animations and effects, meaning the typical "counter" is to stand there and try to cast an AoE spell like WoG/firestorm/gravelord sword dance. This is, of course, the worst possible choice since instead you just stand there waving a catalyst in confusion while getting pummeled.

    Finally, VoS is awesome for coop since it is like Great Magic Barrier for the entire party.

    The usual counter to TwoP is a sword through the spine. And if people suck without 2/3rds of their build well, yeah. I imagine I could beat just about anyone if they only did 1/3rd the damage to me they thought they would. or if their HP suddenly vanished. I guess this is my main issue with VoS, I dislike such restrictive mechanics. Players should be allowed and able to use the tools in the game to play how they want and VoS takes that away.
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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by befowler on Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:02 pm

    The game is in many ways just an elaborate rock-papers-scissors match, and I love VoS because it trumps more things than anything else. I can understand -- if not agree with -- complaints about it trashing builds and "restricting" people if you are purely dueling, but I am a co-oper. And I get tired of watching noob hosts get OHKO'd by tweaked out glass mage builds, firestorm ambushers, power within + WoG spammers, and so on. VoS is great at turning all of that off, and it's better than GMB because GMB only protects me, while VoS protects everybody in range, including the host. I also don't feel sorry for someone who voluntarily invades my world and then loses all their fancy magicks and buffs because I had enough foresight to commit 2 slots to an obscure miracle that happens to turn them back into a pumpkin. And it is not one sided, I and everyone else on my "team" also loses their magicks for the duration. I'll admit it, I just enjoy watching these pure PvP spell spammer builds come charging up to the host and then stand there with funny looks on their faces as nothing happens. It has to be seen to be truly appreciated.


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Jansports on Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:18 pm

    Oh Rereading my post earlier the tone it takes is a bit negative, which was unintentional (as opposed to my oft intentionally negative posts) Using VoS is some kind of a thing to do. For all the reasons you've said and a few more it's a wonderful spell that can turn into a real workhorse in some situations. And if that's what works for you you should use it.

    It's kinda like "counterspell" from Magic the Gathering. It's certainly a good idea to use it, but overall I feel it is at times damaging to the game as it's mere existence potentially could null entire playstyles on it's own.
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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Rynn on Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:03 pm

    45 seconds with lingering dragoncrest?
    After the nerf to the hornet ring, i might be loving me some VoS...
    EDIT: Lingering also effects TWoP... don't tell the gankers...

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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by goober0331 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:15 pm

    Faith has some of the most powerful spells in the game. Vow of Silence and Great Magic Barrier nullify Int builds, GMB is particularly effective against the MLGS.

    TWoP doesnt need any explanation and neither does WoG. Along with having a Lightning and Magic buff, Faith is OP as ****!!! Lol

    And Pyromancy needs ability to add either a toxic or fire buff to a weapon.
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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Rynn on Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:37 pm

    i agree mostly goober. Faith has better spells, but int has more variety, higher cast totals, and better enchanting paths. both builds are viable, but this game is certainly stacked towards faith.
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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by befowler on Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:37 pm

    Against my own interests, I also feel obligated to note a few counters/weakspots for my beloved VoS. I have my own mage chars so have to deal with VoS on the back end as well. First, and most importantly, the spell failure animation can be toggled out of. Given VoS's range, this may well give you plenty of time to toggle and escape before anyone even gets to you. Since my typical mage buildout is shield/catalyst left hand and a weapon in the right hand, this means if I get a failed cast I simply toggle my shield back and can immediately either escape or go straight melee.

    Second, the area of effect is slightly smaller than the arrow-type spells like CSS etc, and you can also throw fireballs into it if you are locked off. There's not much cushion so you need to really know what you're doing, but you can get a cast off before you are affected (most VoS casters will sprint towards you to cover that ground ASAP). With spells like souls spears that can pierce more than one target, this means you can sometimes kill someone close to you if you are outside the area of effect, and have the spell continue on and kill the VoS caster if they are lined up right -- think Anor Londo hallways, Catacombs bridges, etc. Similarly, VoS does not halt casts that start before the effect is applied, or strip off active spells (HCSM), buffs, etc.

    Basically, the "classic" VoS kill is when someone runs into the zone and then tries to spell spam w/o realizing why it is failing. Nearly every other situation has ways to be avoided or countered so long as you recognize what you're dealing with. Thankfully, the griefers usually don't.


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by lordgodofhell on Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:37 am

    I created a thread a while back about Vow of Silence. It works wonders if you play the invader. There is almost a 100% chance that one of the three opponents will be using spells of some type. I had fun with it after my Pure Wog build (no melee) was frozen on the Sens Bridge ensuring my death from Tarkus lol.

    As for Karmic Justice, I am not one to purposely tank hits so it is useless for my style of play. However, sanviesdot has a video of some Japanese player trolling Anor Londo Hosts with it to great effect.

    The only crutch is the faith investment. 2 slots is not too bad and I find for faith builds going vow of silence with one stack of wotg is a strong combo. You decide when spells can be used in the match basically.


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    Karmic Justice info (and a little VoS opinion)

    Post by Rezoic on Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:34 am

    VoS really works for those overused miracles/spells like WoG and dark magic, but I remember when on Demon's Souls I would always use a soulmass or weapon buff and THEN use the silencing miracle, since they could not be ACTIVATED once it is in effect. This might apply to Dark Souls, too. (Not sure if applies to karmic justice's activation after being attacked)

    As for Karmic Justice, it can be very useful with the proper build/stat management. It activates when you receive 5 damages to your HP within a short time, whether directly or against your shield that doesn't block 100% dmg.(poison, toxic, power within, chaos blade don't contribute) After receiving the hint of how karmic justice gets its damage scaling from the main-hand talisman/catalyst/pyro glove's magic adjust, I did some experimenting and research on it myself.

    From my tests I found that this is indeed true, so the ones with most mag adj (tin crystal catalyst for high INT, ascended pyro flame +5 for no stat towards karmic justice damage) will do the greatest damage output with karmic justice. Be sure to have it equipped and currently out in the RIGHT hand when Karmic Justice makes the explosion.

    However, if you can't stand not being able to fight with your weapon while waiting for karmic justice to activate, then there is an alternative. I found out that the scaled-on magic damage (from Int or Faith, including dragonslayer's lightning scaled damage), which is not the base magic damage that the weapon has regardless of stats, acts like mag adj in a similar but not exact way.
    ---With weapons it tends give karmic justice about 200-230 damage with no magic dmg scaled on, but when it does have scaled on mag dmg it takes on a very slightly worse value of mag adj, with the strange divine and occult 110, 120, etc. numbers amplifying it by an amount unknown to me (Grant is a great weapon for STR faith users who want karmic justice also in the fight).
    ---This means the weapon that would add the most to the damage is Moonlight Greatsword, featuring an S scaling on INT and +280 scaled mag dmg with 47 INT (my personal, original build). The dmg output is too much less than crystal catalyst (287 mag adj) 937 vs 1116 dmg (with dusk crown + firstborn ring) against forest treants for you to really think 7 mag adj made that gap of dmg. My point here is: don't expect scaled-on mag dmg to be exactly the same as mag adj.

    I have tried for a while to make a damage formula to no avail with the time I spared for it, but I hope this helps you with understanding Karmic Justice and utilizing it to its fullest. happy

    (btw if you were wondering what the most dmg I did with it, it's about 1607 against a player in light clothing (with red tear in effect) that I fought last night) Have yet to be buffed up with trident or dragon body.
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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:31 pm

    I've never been a big proponent of either buffs or timed defense spells. I mean, I get that they can be very effective on the right opponent or in the right situation. But my strategy on both counts has always been patience. If I can simply dodge and wait for the effect to pass (especially the Darkmoon buff), I will (I once had a 9 minute duel with a random invader in Demon's Souls).

    I once got into a situation where the KJ miracle worked really well. Had me down to about 15% health, when it exploded. I followed this up with a backstab, and that was the end of that. But there's definitely some interesting experiment stats here...I'll have to revisit some of these later.
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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Rezoic on Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:30 pm

    I could share my Karmic Overload build if you guys want to see an example of how it can be utilized to its fullest. However, the build is limited to Lv 100 for download content. I just don't feel like taking the time to set up the character build on the planner unless people really want to see it.

    On to VoS, do you guys think it works on bosses? Such as the moonlight butterfly and whatever bosses I can't think of right now. I ask, because it worked on Fool's Idol in Demon's Souls and I didn't mess with it much in Dark Souls.


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:23 pm

    What you said about hoping you dont get bled first;

    Equip the blood shield and the bloodbite ring and your bleed meter gets supersized.


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by BrotherBob on Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:32 pm

    ErrJon6661 wrote:That was a joke hahaha. I'm surprised more people don't use vos. Especially since so many people seem to complain about various spells that are cast/spammed.
    If you don't have somewhat high faith, then you're out of luck! LOL
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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:04 am

    Most builds I see that use magic use Darkmoon blade so there's no excuse hahahaha. Plus if people are still playing at sl 120 slipping in the faith for vos isn't hard at all.


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    Re: Velka Spells: Karmic Justice and Vow of Silence - Viable in PvP?

    Post by BrotherBob on Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:54 am

    ErrJon6661 wrote:Most builds I see that use magic use Darkmoon blade so there's no excuse hahahaha. Plus if people are still playing at sl 120 slipping in the faith for vos isn't hard at all.
    I just don't know if it's worth it. My main stat is int because of my love of CSS, HCSM, and CMW. Ironically, I am a DMB covenant member. I think the logic goes like this: pick either sorceries or miracles, because if you try to choose both, you'll miss out on the best of both worlds.

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