So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

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    So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by Gazman0169 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:47 pm

    Seriously, you hear all these tales about how NG+ is a lot harder than NG, but I honestly cannot see it. Sure the enemies scale up slightly, but any increase in difficulty that this may bring is quickly cancelled out by the fact that by the time most of us get around to NG+ we have accumilated a wealth of experience and a veritable mountain of maxed-out equipment to fall back on.

    So my question is this at what point (NG+, NG++, what-have-ya) will diminishing returns start to make the game notably harder than the previous run-through?
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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:53 pm

    Hmmm...welll, my first character is a STR/INT build, and I finished NG with level 110 or so...now I am 144, and finishing NG+ (I still play with that character from time to time). I didn't have much trouble, except with the Hellkite Dragon and New Londo (no, not the 4 kings, the damn ghosts....)

    The thing is that around level 125 or so you kind of "max" your build, you can keep levelling up but those points will not help much but the enemies keep getting stronger, so you may start having more trouble around NG++ or so, or the NG+ Four Kings depending on how much damage you can dish out.

    That character I mentioned has a lot of STR, INT, and uses DLC sorceries, so I basically had to fight the Two Kings....but the ghosts hurted a lot, and actually killed me several times (it didn't help that I went back to that character from a rapier-using one, and I wasn't used to low swing speed). I felt the increase in difficulty on the normal enemies more than on the bosses. You won't realize this in the Undead Burg/Darkroot, I felt it from Anor Londo onwards. They do a lot of damage...
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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by Anonymous Proxy on Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:05 pm

    On the Consoles, it was a super noticeable different around Anor Londo and beyond.

    But...

    Spoiler:

    In the Prepare to Die Edition, it seems every boss got mega nerfed. Including the Four Kings. They were nerfed so hard.


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by Gazman0169 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:12 pm

    No, why would FROM do that? 🇳🇴

    Spoiler:
    I mean, the whole point of a game like DkS is that it is supposed to be challenging to the point where all but the most hardened gamers give up on it, and so I cannot for the life of me figure out why the Developers now believe we need our hands held in such a way. It's all very sad, and to be totally honest with you knowing this now makes me a heck of a lot less determined to get the DLC when it is eventually released on the PS3. :x

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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by callipygias on Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:41 pm

    The game is much harder in NG+ if you want it to be. If you're using your super strong gear I'd say it totally depends on the individual and his stats.

    It's hard for me to think of NG as hard at all, except when you're brand new. You make a mistake in NG and it's no big deal; you take a few shots, flask up and move on. You make that same mistake in NG+ and beyond you might die.

    But I'd think that anyone, with any stats would start to think the +'s are harder by NG++++, I guess.


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by vatar5 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:53 pm

    I honestly have trouble with my Mage as he get powned in 2 hit in NG+.

    Usually,the weaker monsters get über buffed and the strongest monster get a little buff so you should
    see the difference while fighting 5 hollow soldiers at the same time.

    To answer your question,the difficulty increases at each NG but with less buff.
    So let's say you get a buff of 1.5 in difficulty from NG to NG+,you'll have 1.4 for NG++,1.3 for NG+++,etc...So NG+ is supposed to be the hardest play through to take on.


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by Gazman0169 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:01 pm

    If that's the case, then I cannot see my interest lasting beyond the point where I obtain the Knight Honor Trophy. 🇳🇴


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by vatar5 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:14 pm

    Gazman0169 wrote:If that's the case, then I cannot see my interest lasting beyond the point where I obtain the Knight Honor Trophy. 🇳🇴

    PvP \o/


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by Siegfried. on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:18 pm

    If the NG+ conventions match the Demon's Souls ones, then enemies get buffed, on average, by 40% in the first round of NG+. Afterwards, it's more like 8%, consistently, for every NG+ up until about seven or so.

    This might seem like a small deal, but these increases in enemy HP and damage don't suffer from the diminishing returns of player characters. And in PvE, it gets much, much harder to level up beyond SL120 or so. In fact, it's difficult enough that raising your stats beyond the point of diminishing returns is almost unthinkable rather than just cautioned against.

    This all means that enemies will be progressing faster than you are, barring some pretty hefty grinding. As you progress through NG+ rounds, you'll find that increasing your survivability is exceedingly difficult, as extra HP and armour can only go so far. Instead, progressive rounds of NG+ are about stacking your advantages. Perhaps the only change to your character in an entire playthrough is that they gain the capacity to fast roll with gear that would usually make them mid roll -- but that can allow your playstyle to change just enough to overcome the increased severity of the challenges.

    I'm currently in the process of taking my SL120 paladinesque character to SL200 in preparation for the DLC arena. And when you're building up your physical damage stats when your faith is already at a maxed 50, the changes don't seem like much at first, meaning that initially, the character is gaining no real benefit for the additional levels. So there's a kind of lopsided balance you have to work against until your new investments catch up with you... and by that time, it's probably time for the next round!

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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by callipygias on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:29 pm

    Gazman0169 wrote:If that's the case, then I cannot see my interest lasting beyond the point where I obtain the Knight Honor Trophy. 🇳🇴
    Why? If you aren't interested in the game that's one thing, lots of people aren't, but why would it be because the game is too easy? You may fall in love with the Claw and do a playthrough with it, and I can pretty much guarantee it'll be challenging. Or try a raw weapon, or whatever. There are a thousand and one ways to make the game more challenging, if that's what you're after.


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:53 pm

    Anonymous Proxy wrote:On the Consoles, it was a super noticeable different around Anor Londo and beyond.

    But...

    Spoiler:

    In the Prepare to Die Edition, it seems every boss got mega nerfed. Including the Four Kings. They were nerfed so hard.

    Oh no, really? I play on the PC version, and this is very sad news... It's the first time I hear about it too :/

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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by callipygias on Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:10 pm

    It isn't true. There's no difference in the pre-existing bosses on PtD edition.


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by Gazman0169 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:35 am

    @ vatar5- I've done that, pretty much to death, but may return to the PvP arena for one last fling once the Platinum Trophy is in the bag.

    @ Siegfried- I already knew about the difficulties in leveling up the higher you get, and in all honesty this will not be an issue for me as I pretty much live to grind, and so going by what you've said the way I see things I'll either have to put my 'Farmer Joe' togs away or face making the game too easy for me. A very insightful post, and so +1 for that. Thanks

    @ callipygias- It's not because the game is too easy, although I am finding it that way, it's because aside from the aforementioned Trophy, which will then lead me to my Platinum one, and taking one of my Characters beyond NG+, there's not a lot more I can do. As I'm pretty much PvP'd out at this moment in time, I've given just about every Weapon and Piece of Armor a go in both PvE and PvP, and I've done the whole challenge run thing, but grew bored with it pretty quick on the count that no matter what I did it was never as challenging as I had originally hoped it would be. Fair enough, I could make an attempt to do a naked Sorcerer no-sorcery bare fist no shield run, but do I really want to? As there comes a time when too much of a challenge makes the game unplayable and more importantly no longer fun to play.
    Spoiler:
    And now that I find that the DLC may end up buffing the game further I find myself asking "what's the point, if it's already proving too easy for me?"
    I guess having played this game religiously since the EU release day on the PS3 I am now reaching the point where a break from it is in order, and so it's probably time for me to put this lil Gem away and dust off some of the lesser titles in my collection. 😢
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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by ChizFreak on Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:22 pm

    NG is a joke for an experience player. With good gear is a cake-walk. In NG+, you get some challenge, minimal but still. in NG++ and beyond starts getting hard.


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by ICEFANG on Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:25 pm

    Its about the player and the limitations set on themselves. Boss changes aren't real, and anything that is said about PtD needs to have a video confirming it with all the bull thrown around.


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:28 pm

    Its about the player and the limitations set on themselves.

    This.

    It depends on your character's playstyle as well...I have 3 characters right now...my first one, a STR/INT build, had trouble in NG at first (because he's my first one) but now he completely destroys NG+, the second one, a DEX warrior which uses a rapier and avelyn (his gimmick is that he can't use any magic nor weapon buffs), did NG quite well (as I was more experienced) also I found all bosses more fun to fight (and more challenging in a way)..now my third character, a low level cleric, is doing horrible in NG silly I'm not used to having no poise, and I'm not that good at dodging....

    It also depends on your SL, I always overlevelled with my first two characters...doing a low level run is quite fun...I miss 40 END so much sad...I can't just block everything.

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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:03 pm

    If you grind/level up a lot, it's not fun.

    Ever try a coop run with someone? No grinding, just go go go?


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:34 pm

    I am donig that now with my cleric, because I want to leave him at Anor Londo for sunbroing at O&S...that's level 45-55, right? happy

    With time I want to leave one character at the same level range as some bosses...like one for Bell Gargoyles, one for O&S, one for Quelaag, etc.

    Not levelling much is more fun, yes.
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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by Gazman0169 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:21 pm

    Yay, I've finally hit a wall in the form of O&S. big grin

    Unsuccessful in three attempts this afternoon, which came as a bit of a surprise seeing as that I normally own them both when doing a NG run, and so the challenge has now been set.

    Tonight they will feel my wrath like never before! twisted
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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by Gazman0169 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:55 pm

    Be careful what you wish for! :roll:

    Having overcome the wall that was O&S, I've now come up against an even bigger one in the form of the 4 Kings, and clearly they've been holding a bit of a grudge since the last time we met! big grin

    Time to put my Gameface back on methinks! twisted


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by Tomhet on Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:38 am

    ^^^ Wait, you started this thread without having fought the Four Kings on NG+? You clearly didn't know what you were talking about big grin

    Today I started NG+5 and those bastards still gave me a lot of trouble. Heck, even O. and A. gave me some trouble because I'm using a very slow weapon, the Demon's Greataxe.
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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by Gazman0169 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:54 pm

    Yep, pretty much. lol

    In all honesty I was just trying to gauge when I was likely to hit 'the wall', knowing that I was bound to come across it eventually. Although, I'm still somewhat disappointed with the relative ease that I eventually managed to overcome O&S the other day (down in four), and the 4 Kings this morning (down in five), and both on my lonesome for the very first time. big grin As soon as I got over the initial shock that came with their increased HP bars and having no back-up support, and having geared myself up for a tougher than expected fight, I found both encounters to be not that difficult. And I cannot begin to tell you how dissapointed I am in Stray, Ceaseless, Firesage, BoC, and Nito, who all fell to my buffed +15 BSS in mega-quick time not long after. Heck, even Pinwheel put up a better fight than them the other day! :evil:

    That said, I can see there coming a point where the increased 'difficulty' will begin to overshadow even my... uh-hum... superior PvE prowess. :roll:

    Superior PvE prowess? Yeah right, who am I kidding!lol!

    As a side-note to all of this, I'm now only three weapons away from getting my Platinum Trophy. Two Boss-Soul based ones (Gwyn and Sif) and a fully upgraded magic weapon for which I only need 1 Blue Slab, and so my next stop is the Duke's to take on Seath. twisted


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by callipygias on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:33 pm

    Gazman0169 wrote:my buffed +15 BSS
    YOU'RE BUFFING??? for God's sake, man, if you're trying to challenge yourself STOP!


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    Re: So at what point does NG+ become as challenging as NG?

    Post by Gazman0169 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:48 pm

    I already have when it comes to the every day foes, and I actually took down the last two Four Kings with no active buff, as by that time the risk being OHK'd by either one of them was becoming increasingly likely. I also took down Ceaseless (the proper fight for a change), Firesage, and BoC buff-free, which sounds a tad pervy if you ask me! lol

    Oh and I forgot to mention, Centipede didn't put up much of a fight either. Although I have to confess I was fully buffed-up :cyclops: when I took it on. lol


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