heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Marino. on Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:35 pm

    Seignar wrote:
    No they hadnt . It looked pretty silly . They jump onto me with their
    big butt Zwei and i poke them with my teeny tiny Velka and cancel their
    attack silly
    This is what happened to me when I tried to Jump Attack with a Zweihander. It was ridiculous. Can you actually test if it is hyper armor or just added poise?

    I dont think so since i dont know just how many Poise damage i take from an Enemy .
    I am pretty sure its Hyper Armor since Demons Souls had it too ^^
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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:17 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:The Abyss Greatsword's 2-handed strong attack have Hyper Armor. But it's so slow and hard to aim at people that it's useless so...

    Slow, hard to aim, useless?
    I know what attack I'll be killing Gankers with when the DLC comes.
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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by ICEFANG on Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:20 pm

    Perhaps Ultra weapon give you a multiplier to your poise when using strong attacks, which would explain different information. I had none, but maybe if you have some, say, just a few points less than a hit, you could test it easily.


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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Spurgun on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:04 pm

    About the DWGR.
    It might be nerfed, but i'll still use it from time to time. The i-frames are just ridiculous.
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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:07 pm

    Rynn, the wolf ring is the reason ug weapons won't be any more viable than they already were for long, a mid/light setup can get 76 poise fairly easily.

    If anything I see it making ug weapons less viable, because it robs them of the mobility and/or defense they used to have (unless the put an extra 10 (and thats with the zweih which needs a 40/40 build and the clubs, which lack versatility) to 30 end points while dex doesn't change much.


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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:22 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Ultra weapons are more viable now yes, because not just that but while swinging a heavy weapon now light attacks won't interrupt it.

    As well while backstabs are nice against gankers, there are still many tricks. Sorcery is still a very powerful tool against gankers.

    In regards to BS damage, I heard it was reduced by 30%.

    So with a Hornets riing you would have a standard BS in terms of damage?


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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Rynn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:27 pm

    I've always done fast rolls, so i'm used to having "lower mobility" with my slow weapons.

    The wolf ring has a pretty viable tell, so i'll just note if i see that aura, i need to be more careful with my attacks.
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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:54 pm

    Yes but what it translates to is dex builds still being essentially immune to stunlock while keeping end at 40, thus allowing them to continue to use points into other stats for versatility.

    Ug weapons weight is prohibitive in that respect, they can still fast roll with the poise they need to avoid being interrupted, but the end requirement to do so soaks a lot of points that could go into other things.

    I'll post example builds. They can be anywhere from sl100 up, they're just proof of concept.

    http://tinyurl.com/8e694ee

    http://tinyurl.com/9fwlljg

    Now not only does the str build have to weild the weapon in both hands, its very linear, with few options. If one wishes to use the clubs exclusively end points can be saved, but thats also a very linear playstyle at it removes the option to menu swap to an alternative weapon and maintain movement speed.

    The zweihander is an alternative for less weight, but elemental versions are taking an 8 and 10% nerf, meaning that to really get the best out of one then a 40/40 build is necessary.

    Mid rolling can mitigate this, but doing so effectvely removes the clubs biggest asset and so requires a heavier weapon, it also makes closing the gap on spear, bss, uchi and washingpole roll pokers incredibly difficult and taking advantage of the small gap is just as hard due to the slow swing speed of the heavy weapon.

    They're still viable, but disadvantaged (especially as dex weapons r2s tend to have similar speed and damage to ug weapons r1s)

    The dex build has more hp and is more versatile, allowing a buff and offensive spells, as well as the option to weild the weapon in one or both hands


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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Rynn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:09 am

    Minimaxing Will Always Exist.
    What we tend to forget is the disadvantage of the dex weapons can often be made up by a strength weapon unless one is very recklessly playing. It's because of strength weaponry that a dex char even would feel the requirement to have 77 poise in the first place, and that nothing stops a strength char from also using a dex weapon under certain circumstances. Both the builds have their ups and downs imho.

    I personally always feel more limited by my dex builds, while strength builds feel more adaptive due to their high damage per hit, and due to weight requirements, the capability of equipping pretty much anything you feel like.
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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:19 am

    Again, elementals are taking a nerf. I *think* its 8% for chaos and fire and 10% for lightning. Thats ar, not damage too, so it will probably result in more than a 8 and 10% drop in damage, respectively.

    I hace no problem with min maxing.

    Their swing speed and weight are huge limiters. With a dex build, the lightness of the weapons means that one can wear pretty much anything they wand and keep a mid roll, or learn to menu swap and keep a light roll without any stat investment beyound the fairly standard 40 and the just as standard havels ring.

    http://tinyurl.com/8pfsv2o

    http://tinyurl.com/cstgjuv

    While with an otherwise identical setup using 2 of the lightest and lowest damage ug weapons is to much without cutting armor or total shield defense or ditching the backup weapon or sacrifising another ring slot or bumping end.



    As I've explained before. My problem lies in that dex builds arn't really changing, they can still do most of the same crap they always could, while ug weapons now have to sacrifice big time in extra end points, ring slots, poise, or defense AND the ability to effectively 1hand their weapon.

    IF the wolfs ring got shot in the face, I'd change my tune. Presumably the point of the dwgr nerf was to either shut people up or to make achieving 76 poise require fairly heavy armor, thus requiring movement speed sacrifice to hit 76 poise. The wolfs ring undoes that, but its unbalanced in doing so by favoring the light weapons that dex characters generally use. Without the wolf ring or the dwgr, using both equipment burden modifying rings, the heaviest weapon one could use (this is shieldless mind you) without pushing end past 40 is a rapier. That I could live with.

    But as is, ug weapons require some fairly hefty sacrifices, where dex builds can skate by mostly unchanged. These sacrifices, in the scheme of things, arn't worth the extra damage when a balder side sword or uchi r2 rivals the damage per hit of ug weapons anyways.

    I love my large club dgm and zweihander, but If I'm putting winning over preference, I'm going in with a buffed dex weapon (probably the washingpole and/or random spear) and some pyromancy.


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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Kiljax on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:11 am

    I think the nerf to DGWR was required. No more Havel ninjas. Heck, even Black Iron or Elite/Knight can't ninja-flip with havel's and DGWR. This means that only the light builds can use it to dodge. Much more realistic in my opinion.

    Pirate's complaints about the Wolf Ring are a solid, but I can't see the wolf ring being equipped if it was dropped by even 10 points. 40 allows for tanking of most 1 handers, meaning a dex build doesn't get stunlocked if the lag gods decide that the tip of someone's Zwei has grazed their ego after a dodge. Low armour means low defence. Hit a dex build and they bleed, hard.

    If you've got a nice set of armour on, they'll do their damage to you via piercing, but you've got the poise to pay them back. I say this because I watched my pal's Str build (MSGS and Black Iron) just two-shot a dex build due to tanking two shots while breaking the guy's Wolf Ring poise + Thorn plate. Two shots. Wolf ring is fine. Just gotta work on that timing if you're going to go with a strength build - no flipping, all skill.
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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Glutebrah on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:58 am

    lol at people already crying Wolf ring OP, now that DWGR is nerfed. so lets pretend Wolf ring was nerfed to 20 poise or hell even 10 poise or just removed, what ring can we cry about then??

    and i will say it again BACK STAB DAMAGE WAS NOT NERFED. Hornets ring was, that is it.


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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:00 am

    Glutebrah wrote:lol at people already crying Wolf ring OP, now that DWGR is nerfed. so lets pretend Wolf ring was nerfed to 20 poise or hell even 10 poise or just removed, what ring can we cry about then??

    and i will say it again BACK STAB DAMAGE WAS NOT NERFED. Hornets ring was, that is it.

    This is the beginning of the sad flush that is dark souls. I said this long ago when the fog ring was nerfed lol

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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Veradox on Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:11 am

    ^^ Oh well... I have my Elite Knight Set with gargoile helm, and I'm flip-rolling without havels happy A quite inconventional build oriented on elemental weapons, EKS and ninja-flippin! But, each time I see a UGs wielder - I quick swap my DWGR to Wolf Ring. I feel pretty comfortable with fast roll, and really uncomfortable of being stunlocked by some stupid dead angle... However, I must admit that I could dish out pretty much more damage with my Chaos Blade on Dex build, compared to Lightning Uchigatana +5 I use now... And yeah - no ninja flipping there.

    ^ BackStab damage was not nerfed at all. Backstabbing angles were, though.


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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by WyrmHero on Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:16 am

    They say that's just another rumor because PC version has less lag.


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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Rynn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:27 pm

    Glutebrah wrote:lol at people already crying Wolf ring OP, now that DWGR is nerfed. so lets pretend Wolf ring was nerfed to 20 poise or hell even 10 poise or just removed, what ring can we cry about then??

    and i will say it again BACK STAB DAMAGE WAS NOT NERFED. Hornets ring was, that is it.
    ^
    ^
    ^
    ^
    ^

    Seriously, there is 4 power play rings in this game, that are undeniably the best rings.

    Wolf Ring
    Fog Ring (pre nerf)
    Hornet Ring
    Dark Wood Grain Ring.

    I think most of these things were OP, but i didn't ask for them to get fixed. In my personal opinion, perfect imbalance is necessary for a game of this type.

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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Kiljax on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:34 pm

    The whole thing is that DWGR was overused and allowed for the retarded flipping heavies. So, the 25% makes sense, reward the guys who /really/ don't want to get hit.

    Hornet was a knee-jerk reaction to backstab fishers/gankers who would just circle strafe newbies and insta-kill them - no skill required for a lucky BS.
    Fog ring - Can't really say much, the inability to lock on in a game like DS does nerf the hell out of all but wide sweeping weapons.

    Wolf Ring: Out of all of the others mentioned, this one doesn't really change the outcome of the game that much. If you get hit, you still take damage, you don't get a bonus half second of lag invulnerability and it takes up a ring slot that otherwise could allow you to wear heavier armour and still fast-roll.

    Not seeing the issue with Wolf Ring. It's just a solid ring, like the Hornet ring has become - not OP, but strong enough to definitely be worth putting on your finger.

    Also: Rynn. I love Atnas' quote. Potato dodge! *Portal 2 reference here.*
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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Glutebrah on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:56 pm

    Rynn wrote:
    Glutebrah wrote:lol at people already crying Wolf ring OP, now that DWGR is nerfed. so lets pretend Wolf ring was nerfed to 20 poise or hell even 10 poise or just removed, what ring can we cry about then??

    and i will say it again BACK STAB DAMAGE WAS NOT NERFED. Hornets ring was, that is it.
    ^
    ^
    ^
    ^
    ^

    Seriously, there is 4 power play rings in this game, that are undeniably the best rings.

    Wolf Ring
    Fog Ring (pre nerf)
    Hornet Ring
    Dark Wood Grain Ring.

    I think most of these things were OP, but i didn't ask for them to get fixed. In my personal opinion, perfect imbalance is necessary for a game of this type.

    there are other rings just as powerful as what you listed.

    dragon crest ring 30% more damage to spell
    RTSR - how many matches have you lost because of that ring after completely outplaying him?
    Leo ring - BSS R2 does more damages then BSs
    Ring of Favor - probably 90% of the dark souls population uses this ring for a reason.

    the only ring i can argue was over powered was DWGR as it was to great of a benefit compared to other rings. the Fog ring i saw as more broken then OP it just broke PVP.

    but Hornet/wolf are just strong rings, hornet ring only seems OP because of lag.


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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Marino. on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:57 pm

    Its not like Dex weapons always win over Str .

    I dedicated myself to the Str weapons heres the "build" i am using http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=2580522127008851 .

    I do fairly well with it .
    The trick is just to know when to swing. For example i just do a random running attack to make it look like im vulnerable , in most cases they go for a BS so i just turn around and do a regular attack dealing roughly aroung 650 damage . And even if i take a hit, i have Hyper Armor so it doesnt stagger me at all and i can still attack .

    Every weapon is viable in PVP , you just have to know how to use it (have you ever tried the Pickaxe ? I am suprised noone uses it)


    Last edited by Marino. on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Rynn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:58 pm

    I've never lost a match to the RTSR btw. But yes, i know there is other competitive rings, but that's the wonderful thing about perfect imbalance. The wolf ring is only arguably the best, but it's not so good that it's a "must have"
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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:48 pm

    To modify rynns statement in another thread, that ug weapon users (myself included) can beat dex weapon users is proof only that gear isn't everything.

    This also shows that defenses change little, especially considering physical defense suffers from diminishing returns past 350ish

    http://tinyurl.com/9a6gwtv

    http://tinyurl.com/8lo998m

    I'm aware that the second set is easily arguable as better but that only furthers my point. Pre patch, the better set is avaliable to most everyone, post patch the second set is avalible only to dex weapons without significant stat investment.

    Also notice I didn't call the wolf ring op. If anything, as lighter weapons (under 8 units) are in the majority, what I'm saying is that ug weapon builds will be underpowered.

    Not even the weapons themselves, the builds including them.

    For the record, I wouldn't nerf the wolf ring even if I could. I'd restore the beiber ring or I'd disable the wolf rings use in tandem with any armor that has poise. Then casters and dragons can still get the basic stun protection but other builds have to choose between stats (ie endurance of 50+), armor, and damage.


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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Rynn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:11 pm

    you're speaking of my statement in the spear thread where i said spears are almost undebatably the most powerful weapons in the game, and the fact we can "beat" them with other weapons just proves skill plays more part then gear in many cases?
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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:23 pm

    Thats the one.

    UG weapon builds will be largely inferior due to the prohibitive weight of their weapons. Less versatile (ie minimal casting options at best) fewer weapon choices (without putting further stat points into end and dex which starts to pull stats from hp and even then deal sub par damage with the weapons they gain access to) quite likely using inferior armor and/or having lower movement speed.

    To win anyways is a testamate to personal skill, or the opponents lack of.


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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Glutebrah on Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:26 pm

    So you guys are saying a huge giant sword that does 600+ damage suck because small katanas weigh less??


    Btw my str build has more poise and more casting slots then my dex build


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    Re: heard BS damage got tanked.Dark Wood Grain Ring Comments

    Post by Rynn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:36 pm

    We're saying it sucks because the katana can do 600 damage while swinging twice as fast, letting the build have more HP, and still maintaining 77 poise.

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