trolololololo

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    Why do you think people grief in Dark souls pvp?

    [ 6 ]
    8% [8%] 
    [ 26 ]
    37% [37%] 
    [ 9 ]
    13% [13%] 
    [ 9 ]
    13% [13%] 
    [ 21 ]
    29% [29%] 

    Total Votes: 71
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    Tolvo
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:22 pm

    I gave invaders mainly as examples, as those are the most common ones players experience. But of course there are griefer hosts as well. I'd say both sides of the coin are just as bad, invading in low level gear can give a terrible experience.

    I'm fine with invaders evening the playing field to summons, that's the intent of the game.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by OrnsteinFanBoy on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:22 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:
    OrnsteinFanBoy wrote:The argument that "That's just their way of having fun so let them" totally falls down on its face when you think of it in the context of the community. People that grief are making the game a negative experience when it shouldn't be. The people being griefed paid for the game too and should be able to enjoy it without experienced players with high level gear destroying them in the first half hour of their game.

    There's a person on the end of the toon and your being uncool to him. If you saw someone punch a guy in the street "for fun" you wouldn't say "oh it's just that guys way for enjoying himself so let him do it", you'd slam him for being an Ahole just like we're slammming griefers

    If you put that scenario in the context of Dark Souls the guy getting punched in the street would have to have some switch that he turned on to accept the fight (Hollow/Human). So no, I wouldn't call him an ******* if the guy walked around with a big sign saying "im up for a fight".

    Edit: Sorry didn't adress your whole post. You said it makes it a negative experience for new players. Sorry man it didn't do that to me. When i got invaded and destroyed at low levels i was just like "***, this games hard. Guess what everyone was saying and the entire marketing campaign before the game was right, it is brutal."


    But what if the sign carrier is a baby hobbit(I.E no ability to fight, zero experience) and the guy punching him is a giant(I.E vastly superior fighting tools, masses of experience). Is the giant justified?

    Plus being human isn't really asking to get invaded, it's helpful to kindle bonfires and get assistance with boss fights. I personally died so much from PvE on the first play through that I never bothered turning human so never faced this problem but it is harsh on people new to the game
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Peaceful Wollyhop on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:23 pm

    I can't edit the poll but I did edit my first post and said if your opinion isn't on the poll then just express it which is what has happened so everyone is top jonny bananas


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:23 pm

    Rynn wrote:
    Knight Alundil wrote:Edit: Gah got all excited and replied before I read your whole post. *edit of shame*
    if he can't tell he is ruining someone elses experience, he isn't mature enough to purchase this game.

    There's a difference between not being able to tell and not caring. And why would that have any effect on maturity when it's a game? I'm not pulling the "it's just a game" card but I really don't see how that would effect maturity.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by bmurn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:24 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:It kind of annoys me that you guys paint a picture of invaders being the only ones who abuse glitches,

    I agree with you here. It works both ways. I think everyone focused on invaders as it was brought up early. I think anyone can fall into this, host invader, summon.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:26 pm

    OrnsteinFanBoy wrote:But what if the sign carrier is a baby hobbit(I.E no ability to fight, zero experience) and the guy punching him is a giant(I.E vastly superior fighting tools, masses of experience). Is the giant justified?

    Plus being human isn't really asking to get invaded, it's helpful to kindle bonfires and get assistance with boss fights. I personally died so much from PvE on the first play through that I never bothered turning human so never faced this problem but it is harsh on people new to the game

    *Baby hobbit walks into bar*

    Hobbit: Anyone want a fight?

    Giant: Ok

    *Giant kills baby*

    Pretty legit.

    And being human is asking to be invaded. It's one of the things being human does. Being a new player doesn't mean you shouldn't have to deal with that it means you don't know that and you have to learn.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Rynn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:26 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:It kind of annoys me that you guys paint a picture of invaders being the only ones who abuse glitches, just like how people act like forest hunters do no wrong.
    Also, This post sums up a lot of things imo. I get tired of that too.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:26 pm

    Yip.

    Actually a proper thought. I was in the minority in another thread arguing against the use of the BB glitch and i'm here arguing against people who are also saying the BB glitch is bad and i'm using exactly the same points. Makes me think.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:28 pm

    I suppose if your first run of the game was NG+7, with starter gear, that you would not feel as if the game was just killing you for no reason and being extremely tedious?
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by bmurn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:30 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:K an actual response to Bmurn and I didn't jump the gun this time:

    You say that it's about being responsible on the impact you have on others. I just think of this in a Dark Souls context and griefing low levels doesn't seem messed up to me. It seems totally appropriate to the world it's set in.

    I understand what you are saying here, but everyone will be judged on their actions. Your intentions may be to create the toughest experience possible for new players, so that they are elated when they finally make it to the next area, but the people on the other end may not see it that way. It may not be adding to their enjoyment of the game, because they realize this is someone that has effectively put them in an unwinnable situation.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by OrnsteinFanBoy on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:32 pm

    bmurn wrote:
    FruitPunchNinja wrote:It kind of annoys me that you guys paint a picture of invaders being the only ones who abuse glitches,

    I agree with you here. It works both ways. I think everyone focused on invaders as it was brought up early. I think anyone can fall into this, host invader, summon.

    I think I can see where you coming from on this say a low level guy tries invading then gets one shot spanked by the guy he invades it's not good but it's a bit different because he's likely to be a position to get his souls back easily and he's unlikely to lose progress though the area he's in so he doesn't lose anything, he just goes "holy balls I need to get stronger before I try to mess with people again". As opposed to someone skipping merrily through the burg for the first time then suddenly getting bummed by havels twin wielding a great axe
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:34 pm

    Tolvo wrote:I suppose if your first run of the game was NG+7, with starter gear, that you would not feel as if the game was just killing you for no reason and being extremely tedious?

    If that was the way the game was designed and everyone had to play through it that way i may or may not have persevered. It may have been tedious but I cant really say. Sorry can you reword that? I'm not really getting what you mean sad

    bmurn wrote:
    Knight Alundil wrote:K an actual response to Bmurn and I didn't jump the gun this time:

    You
    say that it's about being responsible on the impact you have on others.
    I just think of this in a Dark Souls context and griefing low levels
    doesn't seem messed up to me. It seems totally appropriate to the world
    it's set in.

    I understand what you are saying here, but
    everyone will be judged on their actions. Your intentions may be to
    create the toughest experience possible for new players, so that they
    are elated when they finally make it to the next area, but the people on
    the other end may not see it that way. It may not be adding to their
    enjoyment of the game, because they realize this is someone that has
    effectively put them in an unwinnable situation.

    So if someone is doing it just to enjoy the game, and is trying to create a tough experience like you said all in the spirit of the game but a majority or minority of players on the receiving end don't appreciate it and it worsens their game experience he should be branded a bad guy and stop doing what he enjoys doing?

    I know originally you kind of covered your entire opinion on this, so you don't need to continue debating if you can't be bothered winking

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Peaceful Wollyhop on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:35 pm

    I think the only thing left to say here is that I need to add a bit more effort and thoughtbefore I start a topic XD


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:35 pm

    In my opinion, if someone can't put up with playing offline or dieing a few times to invaders early on then they should find another game to play. That may seem rough, but this game isn't for everyone. I don't see the point in trying to make it appeal to everyone. If you want to play Dark Souls, expect to overcome some immense challenges.

    When i first started playing i got invaded and killed a few times, i was not pissed at all it was fun. The only way i can see people getting pissed is if they want to play through the whole game with a friend, which i'm sorry but this game was not designed with that in mind. There's a reason you can't invite psn/xbl friends for co op ext.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:36 pm

    OrnsteinFanBoy wrote:
    bmurn wrote:
    FruitPunchNinja wrote:It kind of annoys me that you guys paint a picture of invaders being the only ones who abuse glitches,

    I agree with you here. It works both ways. I think everyone focused on invaders as it was brought up early. I think anyone can fall into this, host invader, summon.

    I think I can see where you coming from on this say a low level guy tries invading then gets one shot spanked by the guy he invades it's not good but it's a bit different because he's likely to be a position to get his souls back easily and he's unlikely to lose progress though the area he's in so he doesn't lose anything, he just goes "holy balls I need to get stronger before I try to mess with people again". As opposed to someone skipping merrily through the burg for the first time then suddenly getting bummed by havels twin wielding a great axe

    If anyone here wants to chime in and correct me feel free.

    I don't think that was really their points man, I think it was more just that invaders and people who pvp mainly get all the blame for using glitches when it clearly isn't just that part of the community that does.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:41 pm

    If it took you fifty hits to kill a hollow while they could kill you in one, would you want to play the game? It's not being difficult based upon skill, it's killing you because of statistics which are out of your control. That's the issue. Outplaying someone is one thing, working to get some better gear and having an edge is another, being able to have the best gear at a low level completely breaks the game. Skill goes out the window and it merely comes down to, "Did this person buy the game before the other person? They did? Well okay, they can glitch great gear onto a new character, and kill a person who is new to the game. Whether invader or host."

    Similar to a person in starting gear fighting someone using Black Iron Armor with a lightning claymore. Not to mention what if the enemies didn't get knocked back when you hit them. They had high poise so all they would do is charge at you striking meaning even if you hit them you'll die. You have no understanding of what dodging is yet and you don't see the other person showing you how it is done. You are just being killed, and being taught nothing.

    If you wish to go the fighting route in example, imagine saying "Hey I'm a lightweight, I'm here to fight people in my weight class." Then a guy comes out with body armor, while he is five hundred pounds of all muscle. You're stuck in the ring with him and have to fight him.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Siegfried. on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:41 pm

    FruitPunchNinja wrote:It kind of annoys me that you guys paint a picture of invaders being the only ones who abuse glitches, just like how people act like forest hunters do no wrong. If i use the orbs in the first few areas at low level, guess what i will be met with? Hosts with elemental weapons, and usually a summon with elemental weapons. Both sides do it, you can't act like invaders are the only people who abuse glitches. I also tend to see hosts using the dragon head glitch far more, cause they are able to do it while you spawn.


    The glitches suck, we know this. It's pretty obvious people are getting upset and opinionated because this poll was completely biased. This game was made to troll people, if you seriously think it wasn't i'm not sure what to say. New players should just play offline if they don't like invaders, because having summons and not worrying about invaders is just lame and way to easy. There's a reason there's no easy mode, it's *** DARK SOULS!

    The game was most certainly not made to troll people. If you've played Demon's Souls, then you know that Dark Souls toned down a lot of the less forseeable and frustrating parts of that game. Like Giant Depraved Ones in that bloody swamp.

    Dark Souls is designed to be a punishing challenge, but it's also designed to be fair and to reward clever thinking. If the developers were trolling us in earnest, our reward for defeating the Bell Gargoyles would be the deletion of our save file. Or being dumped into the Valley of Defilement. Whichever is worse.

    While it's true that hosts also use glitches and also grief, it's a lot more avoidable. If nothing else, you have the separation crystal. In any case, ganking would still happen with or without glitches, but the current state of the early metagame is dominated by the impositions glitched invaders have made. It's no longer viable to have SL30 PvP with a regular, divine or magical weapon -- if you don't have an elemental weapon, you'll be struck for high damage by builds that can have much more HP and stamina than you.

    I'm pretty sure this is why elemental weapons are only available towards the end of Anor Londo and towards the end of the Catacombs. They're a complete no-brainer for low level characters, but if you're around SL50 when you find them, the choice isn't so clear cut.

    Essentially, elemental weapons are a dominant strategy within low level play, and a single dominant strategy runs counter to the diversity Dark Souls otherwise provides. It's also, more generally, the antithesis of interesting and well-rounded game design. Most games that include a dominant strategy are meant to be easy or contain it as an oversight. Dark Souls did neither until the bottomless box glitch.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:42 pm

    yea wasn't my point, lol. I just meant both sides abuse those glitches, or in some cases just use overpowered gear(cause it's not always a glitch). Also what is so horrible about getting killed your first time going through the burg, especially if you turned human for w/e reason. It's a learning experience, and some people like myself actually enjoyed those moments.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:44 pm

    Tolvo wrote:If it took you fifty hits to kill a hollow while they could kill you in one, would you want to play the game? It's not being difficult based upon skill, it's killing you because of statistics which are out of your control. That's the issue. Outplaying someone is one thing, working to get some better gear and having an edge is another, being able to have the best gear at a low level completely breaks the game. Skill goes out the window and it merely comes down to, "Did this person buy the game before the other person? They did? Well okay, they can glitch great gear onto a new character, and kill a person who is new to the game. Whether invader or host."

    Similar to a person in starting gear fighting someone using Black Iron Armor with a lightning claymore. Not to mention what if the enemies didn't get knocked back when you hit them. They had high poise so all they would do is charge at you striking meaning even if you hit them you'll die. You have no understanding of what dodging is yet and you don't see the other person showing you how it is done. You are just being killed, and being taught nothing.

    If you wish to go the fighting route in example, imagine saying "Hey I'm a lightweight, I'm here to fight people in my weight class." Then a guy comes out with body armor, while he is five hundred pounds of all muscle. You're stuck in the ring with him and have to fight him.

    Okaaaaay I get you. Well I would consider getting invaded constantly at low levels a completely different, and far superior, experience to the NG+7 scenario you're describing.

    And seriously man I'm gonna say this again. Are we talking about griefing or are we talking about glitching? I thought this was a thread about griefing. If you have been talking about glitching this entire time then like I said before I 100% agree with you but if we're talking about people doing it legit then debate with me on that point please.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:47 pm

    As earlier said, while I think it's a jerk thing to do it legit and kill low levels, it fits with the game in that they challenged themselves extremely and got a reward, the gear.

    I did mention a few times I was referring to glitching griefers. But yes I'm mainly talking about people who are glitching to give themselves an advantage against others.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:47 pm

    S'all good in the hood then.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:48 pm

    I guess i get your point tolvo, but unlike some unbeatable/very difficult mob invaders are avoidable.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Rynn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:49 pm

    Glitching and Griefing are sautered together at the joints. You can't speak of one and ignore the other.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:49 pm

    Rynn wrote:Glitching and Griefing are sautered together at the joints. You can't speak of one and ignore the other.

    I really, really disagree with this. You're basically saying every griefer is a glitcher. No way. Not a chance.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:50 pm

    Also just a random thought: Griefing isn't an integral part of Dark Souls? Darkmoons can invade down.


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