trolololololo

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    Why do you think people grief in Dark souls pvp?

    [ 6 ]
    8% [8%] 
    [ 26 ]
    37% [37%] 
    [ 9 ]
    13% [13%] 
    [ 9 ]
    13% [13%] 
    [ 21 ]
    29% [29%] 

    Total Votes: 71
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    Tolvo
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:48 am

    They're being punished for wanting to fight other players? Excuse them for wanting to play the game rather than just being handed deaths.

    It isn't presenting them a challenge or explaining PvP to them or allowing them to learn anything about the game other than that other players want to see you die. I suppose to me it just seems PvP was supposed to be more about challenging yourself and advancing in skill level rather than just giving those who glitch easy mode.
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    Knight Alundil
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:49 am

    Tolvo wrote:The issue is how Dark Souls works. It is a difficult game and it kills you for your mistakes. You die because you didn't dodge at the right time, you are wearing the wrong type of gear for the zone, or because you fell for a hinted trap.

    If a player is invaded by someone ninja flipping with a long spear and +10 armor, they can out dodge and play them for minutes and will still likely die. What did they do wrong? What are they being punished for, playing the game?

    There is being "Hardcore," and there is hurting the community. I'm talking about griefing in the idea of someone BB glitching over gear and using it to kill undergeared players who are just starting out. Meaning, they are glitching regardless. Whether using a dragon roar to infinitely stun someone or invading with gear that will cause the invader to require 40 strikes to be killed but they can kill the host in one hit, really there is no difference. It's using a glitch to gain an advantage over others.

    Dark Souls is about being punished for your mistakes, what are the players being punished for by the griefers. The fact that they're playing the game?

    Ok really quick: You've based alot of this post on assuming that I agree that Dark Souls punishes for mistakes and that Griefing is the same as that. I would not consider them the same.

    You're talking about community. Ok. There's many different parts of this community and many different views on what griefing and honorable play is. We all go through a journey in Dark Souls and become one of these types of players. One of the types is someone who likes to grief low level players.

    Like you said it's a community and we all grow into different types of people.

    I remember saying earlier in a post that i generally disagree with griefing, and I never do it myself but I see how it's an integral part of Dark Souls. If all of the griefing was taken out of DkS then alot of the fear would be relieved from your first play through as well.

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    Siegfried.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Siegfried. on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:51 am

    The fact that they went human. That was their mistake. They were human. Nobody is every FORCED to be human, they reverse hollowing they deserve an invasion because it's part of the game. They don't NEED help to beat it, they want help to make it easier for them because they're having to much trouble. That is what they're being punished for. Not beating the game before the invader and going human KNOWING they can get invaded. happy


    That doesn't cut it, because there are other benefits to being human. Yes, the prospect of being invaded should be there and should be a consideration, but no-one expects that they'll be invaded by a glitcher initially. New players in particular will want to kindle as many bonfires as possible and summon other players to help them through tough bosses.

    And I'd like to state once more that few of us had to put up with this while learning the game. I know I certainly made it through my first run without meeting a glitcher, and that was difficult enough as it was, even if I had cleared Demon's Souls prior.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:51 am

    Tolvo wrote:They're being punished for wanting to fight other players? Excuse them for wanting to play the game rather than just being handed deaths.

    It isn't presenting them a challenge or explaining PvP to them or allowing them to learn anything about the game other than that other players want to see you die. I suppose to me it just seems PvP was supposed to be more about challenging yourself and advancing in skill level rather than just giving those who glitch easy mode.

    Other playes do want to see you die. I want to see every red phantom/host die. It's a pretty good lesson not to trust anyone in DkS.

    Also, glitching and griefing are seperate!! Gah!!

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    Rynn
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Rynn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:51 am

    Dante_000 wrote:

    This sums up my opinion perfectly, I would rep you up but I have no idea how to xD
    Feature is locked until 100 posts. I'll rep him in your honor.
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    Tolvo
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:53 am

    I have no problem with people invading at low levels, I'm talking about the ones using BB gear just to dominate new players.

    If they are using appropriate gear that they legitimately got while I think it's a bit mean I don't consider it hurtful to the community. If they are defeating a new player its because they are dodging, spacing well, attacking at right moments. Actually showing their opponent how PvP mechanics work and teaching them the game. I consider that healthy for the communities growth.

    I don't consider just killing people and teaching them nothing other than that you die, is healthy for the growth of the player.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:53 am

    Siegfried. wrote:That doesn't cut it, because there are other benefits to being human. Yes, the prospect of being invaded should be there and should be a consideration, but no-one expects that they'll be invaded by a glitcher initially.

    The fact there are othre benefits doesn't really change his point. It helps it. The chance of being invaded is the price you pay for all the benefits being human gives you.

    And i'm really not sure if we're talking about griefing or glitching anymore :|

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    Peaceful Wollyhop
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Peaceful Wollyhop on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:54 am

    Also I apolagise if by making this post I have brought the worst out in people i'm sorry ^_^


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    Knight Alundil
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:54 am

    Tolvo wrote:I have no problem with people invading at low levels, I'm talking about the ones using BB gear just to dominate new players.

    Totally agree 100%.

    If they are using appropriate gear that they legitimately got while I think it's a bit mean I don't consider it hurtful to the community. If they are defeating a new player its because they are dodging, spacing well, attacking at right moments. Actually showing their opponent how PvP mechanics work and teaching them the game. I consider that healthy for the communities growth.

    I don't consider just killing people and teaching them nothing other than that you die, is healthy for the growth of the player.

    What about players who play through the whole game legit at level 10 for example and get the high end gear then return to the burg to grief?

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:55 am

    Peaceful Wollyhop wrote:Also I apolagise if by making this post I have brought the worst out in people i'm sorry ^_^

    It's a public forum bro, everyone's in control of their own comments winking Feel no guilt big grin

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:56 am

    I don't understand them. They are willing to go that far but still feel the need to use such gear on low levels? I suppose I wouldn't call them hurtful, but I'd say I don't really understand their intent with doing it. Similar to if a person does a level 10 challenge run, but wants to summon help. It just doesn't compute.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Siegfried. on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:59 am

    Knight Alundil wrote:What about players who play through the whole game legit at level 10 for example and get the high end gear then return to the burg to grief?

    Personally, I'd consider this just as bad as glitching, in the same way I'd consider glitching for the sake of a backup weapon in case of griefing invaders to be okay.

    A player who has a complete run of the game will no doubt have a bottomless box full of cool weapons to use and try out in a context where weapon upgrades haven't been unlocked, but they'd rather have a supreme advantage, not advance their skills and understanding of the game with a slightly different playthrough.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:03 pm

    I'd agree with you both that it's a messed up thing to do, but I feel it's totally earned. I would never do it, would be a complete waste of time but if someone did choose to do it I wouldn't fault them for it.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:04 pm

    I of course do think it is morally a bit reprehensible, but it seems to fit with the design of Dark Souls more. Challenging one's self to get rewards.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by goober0331 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:04 pm

    If someone is good enough at Dark Souls to complete a low lvl run, and thus have access to high-lvl gear, why torment low lvls?

    If they have that much pride in being able to complete that run, why not relish in that pride by fighting higher lvl opposition?
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:06 pm

    goober0331 wrote:If someone is good enough at Dark Souls to complete a low lvl run, and thus have access to high-lvl gear, why torment low lvls?

    If they have that much pride in being able to complete that run, why not relish in that pride by fighting higher lvl opposition?

    Alot of people just like to feel powerful.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by OrnsteinFanBoy on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:12 pm

    The argument that "That's just their way of having fun so let them" totally falls down on its face when you think of it in the context of the community. People that grief are making the game a negative experience when it shouldn't be. The people being griefed paid for the game too and should be able to enjoy it without experienced players with high level gear destroying them in the first half hour of their game.

    There's a person on the end of the toon and your being uncool to him. If you saw someone punch a guy in the street "for fun" you wouldn't say "oh it's just that guys way for enjoying himself so let him do it", you'd slam him for being an Ahole just like we're slammming griefers
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:14 pm

    OrnsteinFanBoy wrote:The argument that "That's just their way of having fun so let them" totally falls down on its face when you think of it in the context of the community. People that grief are making the game a negative experience when it shouldn't be. The people being griefed paid for the game too and should be able to enjoy it without experienced players with high level gear destroying them in the first half hour of their game.

    There's a person on the end of the toon and your being uncool to him. If you saw someone punch a guy in the street "for fun" you wouldn't say "oh it's just that guys way for enjoying himself so let him do it", you'd slam him for being an Ahole just like we're slammming griefers

    If you put that scenario in the context of Dark Souls the guy getting punched in the street would have to have some switch that he turned on to accept the fight (Hollow/Human). So no, I wouldn't call him an ******* if the guy walked around with a big sign saying "im up for a fight".

    Edit: Sorry didn't adress your whole post. You said it makes it a negative experience for new players. Sorry man it didn't do that to me. When i got invaded and destroyed at low levels i was just like "***, this games hard. Guess what everyone was saying and the entire marketing campaign before the game was right, it is brutal."


    Last edited by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    bmurn
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by bmurn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:14 pm

    Interesting debate. It is obviously a challenge to get people to see a different side, especially when the definitions are ambiguous at best. I think there is a continuum of actual actions involved while there is also a continuum of intentions. Everyone
    picks a point on those two continuums as the point they think someone has gone
    too far.



    On the actions you would have the following (notcomplete): A skilled player invading
    new players > A player with better gear invading new players > A player with
    glitched gear invading new players > A player utilizing other glitches (dragon head, etc) to invade new players > A player hacking the game and invading new players.



    On the intentions I think it is something like this: Trying to have fun with another player > Just trying to scare some new players and make the game hard for them > Taking pleasure in the thought of creating a frustrating experience for someone else
    > Trying to ruin someone’s experience.



    Personally, I think the intentions are worse than the actions, as the thought of trying to
    do something purely to ruin someone’s experience, or make it terribly frustrating to them is in line with getting pleasure from bullying. That is unnecessary in my opinion and a hindrance to the game, the community and society (to grandiose?).



    Unfortunately the intentions are not readily apparent and we can often only judge on the actions we see in front of us. This is where I think the debate is most clouded. My thought is anyone that invades low level players using higher level gear than what is available in the area is by their actions indicating that they are fine ruining someone else’s experience. I think that is bad, as well as anywhere on the continuum beyond that.


    Yes, people are allowed to play a game in a way that is enjoyable to them and they
    are responsible to try to create the most enjoyment for themselves, but they are also responsible for the impact of their actions on others. Just as in life we are responsible for the impact of our actions on others (definitely too grandiose).



    So in summary and to conclude, love everyone, don’t ruin people’s days. Darksouls
    good. Fire Bad.


    Last edited by bmurn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Knight Alundil
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:17 pm

    Edit: Gah got all excited and replied before I read your whole post. *edit of shame*


    Last edited by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Tolvo
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:18 pm

    I don't think physical violence equates well in comparison, since it's a social thing and not a physically harming them. Emotional harm is a better comparison, and probably the most apt one since it can be considered emotional harm.

    Bmurn that's a pretty well thought out way to look at it.

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    Dante_000
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Dante_000 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:19 pm

    Rynn wrote:
    Dante_000 wrote:

    This sums up my opinion perfectly, I would rep you up but I have no idea how to xD
    Feature is locked until 100 posts. I'll rep him in your honor.

    Thanks, I owe you, Now to get my posts to 100 >.>
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:19 pm

    It kind of annoys me that you guys paint a picture of invaders being the only ones who abuse glitches, just like how people act like forest hunters do no wrong. If i use the orbs in the first few areas at low level, guess what i will be met with? Hosts with elemental weapons, and usually a summon with elemental weapons. Both sides do it, you can't act like invaders are the only people who abuse glitches. I also tend to see hosts using the dragon head glitch far more, cause they are able to do it while you spawn.


    The glitches suck, we know this. It's pretty obvious people are getting upset and opinionated because this poll was completely biased. This game was made to troll people, if you seriously think it wasn't i'm not sure what to say. New players should just play offline if they don't like invaders, because having summons and not worrying about invaders is just lame and way to easy. There's a reason there's no easy mode, it's *** DARK SOULS!

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    Rynn
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Rynn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:20 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:Edit: Gah got all excited and replied before I read your whole post. *edit of shame*
    if he can't tell he is ruining someone elses experience, he isn't mature enough to purchase this game.
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    Knight Alundil
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:20 pm

    K an actual response to Bmurn and I didn't jump the gun this time:

    You say that it's about being responsible on the impact you have on others. I just think of this in a Dark Souls context and griefing low levels doesn't seem messed up to me. It seems totally appropriate to the world it's set in.


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