PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

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    PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by RCPD_STARS on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:22 pm

    I have been fervently dueling in the oolacile township lately, and I have noticed a very annoying trend. I invade/get invaded and, when I bow, my opponent casts HCSM or Pursuers before bowing.

    Additionally Casters are exploiting the courtesy of letting the opponent prepare to space themselves exceptionally far such that I have to dodge pursuers, dark bead, HCSM, and/or a CSS before I can even touch them.

    Casting a homing spell is not a substitution/addition to bowing. Why even bow after you have cast an offensive spell? Its like saying " hey lets fight now that I can stand here and watch my pursuers take 750 hp and cast dark bead six times in a row, and hey, if you get all the way up to me maybe then we can fight"

    I guess I am walking a fine line here, and I understand that. The obvious counter-argument is that people let each other buff their weapons, so homing spells are no different. What are they supposed to do, queue up a spell during melee combat? Start a duel less than max distance away?

    I just get really disgusted when people take advantage of me bowing to them to queue up pursuers, that way they can start spamming other spells as soon as we engage.

    Its gotten to the point where I have a written list of usernames which I will immediately charge and destroy because I know they are going to cast persuers (and also PW) before bowing and then bead six times in a row with a HCSM mixed in for fun.

    Rant complete: time to engage in intelligent, philosophical debate...
    Thanks for listening to me complain!





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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by SnailsAndSlugs on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:03 pm

    Most people consider buffing, eating grass, casting HCSM or Pursuers, and bowing all part of the same routine. Most PvPers will wait until you've finished doing all your preparations before attacking. HCSM or Pursuers aren't considered "offensive" until your opponent actually targets you. If they cast it, then run up and target you as you're finishing bowing/buffing, then YES, that's poor etiquette.

    You're saying casting HCSM or Pursuers as part of the pre-fight ritual isn't kosher, but how is it any different than buffing or popping a grass. All these things are increasing your ability to defeat your opponent.

    Pursuers is really easy to dodge BTW. It seems like everyone's pretty much figured it out by now. You roll into them as they're approaching you from the opposite direction; they'll go right by and won't turn 180 degrees to pursue you as long as you don't immediately turn around.
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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:21 am

    I just wouldn't bow unless they bowed first and didn't have a talismine out. Bow after. Problem solved.


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by RCPD_STARS on Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:57 am

    I am getting used to it from seeing it repeatedly. The dark spells really have changed pvp quite a bit. No one really ever precasted HCSM because it was so easy to dodge.

    At this point, the only thing I can't stand is when I allow folk to do all they want, and then they charge in instead of bowing. And then bow after the duel...

    Also running into a lot of people who charge at me as soon as I invade. It freaks me out, and I go into instant frenzy mode. Just not used to that happening. Sometimes it works out really funny though and can be pretty rewarding to angrily thrash someone.

    I actually had someone nail me with a zwei while I was bowing back off, drop a humanity and reset the duel. Serious honor there!


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:17 am

    I don't bow before hand (with the exceptions being people I know won't take advantage of it and who bow first), and I don't allow others to setup.

    Its a fight, cast/buff at own risk, I'm not going to let you. Once you make a move, other than to bow, the fight is on.

    I allow healing if the host is at less than full hp when I invade (in duels) and I bow after duels, but thats it. No nasty suprises but I'm not being a prick either.


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by SublimeSinner on Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:22 am

    If you see someone bowing run at them, don't hit them then run back and bow.


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Kiljax on Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:05 am

    I personally have no issue with people getting Pursuers or HCSM ready after or during a bow, so long as their next move isn't to immediately run at me while I'm still in my animation to try and get a cheap combo in.

    What I do have a problem with is the amount of people pretending to be dueling and then, mid-way through the fight, they just pop out Estus. Had I been expecting it, I would backstab them as revenge, but when I'm having a fun duel and suddenly: Heal, well, I kind of stop for a second and do 'Well, what is it?" in real life

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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:25 am

    I think if you want to duel, etiquette should be: bow a certain distance away, then the fight is on. No allowing to buff, pop grass, etc. Either that or bow from a far distance away, and do what you want. If they buff, run for it. That's hwo a real invasion would work. I don't buy any 'pre fight buffs'. As soon as I bow, it's game on.


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by RedderAI on Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:30 pm

    When I am a far distance away I like to wave at them, I only bow if its someone I know or know wouldn't exploit the gesture. I always bow after I win, even of it was less than savory company.

    If its someone Im on the fence about I will notch an arrow and wait for them to either bow and make a move or just make a move. I only fire my arrows early is if it's someone trolling me or someone who bs or heals. I punish with arrows; I like to think I'm really good with arrows. If I can hit someone with a shortbow halfway across the burg area you'd think so right? Anyways people HATE bow and arrow users.
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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Pesth on Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:37 pm

    i aways cast pursuers on my dark mage after i bow :suspect:

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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:40 pm

    personally, i bow and allow my opponent to bow before we should start eating grass/buffing/casting anything, usually i block twice to signal the duel has started, and people usually follow my lead, even for random invasions.

    I dunno why people started casting spells before bowing, except maybe buffs but offensive spells definitely is not alright casting before a bow, since it could damage you while bowing.

    Bow first before anything, if a guy BS or attacks you while you're eating grass or whatever, let it go the guy's an *** hole, there's always plenty of people who duel with honour around i'm sure.


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Taganov on Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:47 pm

    I'm sorry guys, this is ridiculous. I don't know how buffs count as part of a bow. To me, as soon as you do anything other than bow, the fight is on. If you're going to sit there and turn on power within, the dark moon buff and pursuers, the fight has already begun (got murdered by just this combination 2x today. Changed my perception of the whole thing). If I can punish, I will. When I pop grass, I do so at my own risk. I guess this is why I don't really get mad at people healing. If I let up enough that you can go pop a humanity or heal, that's my bad. If a host heals, I can run to a mob and do the same. When I heal during a fight, I know the immediate risk is a backstab. I think the game is balanced without players imposing additional rules that you know the gankers and lamers won't use anyway.
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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by WyrmHero on Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:54 pm

    Taganov wrote:I'm sorry guys, this is ridiculous. I don't know how buffs count as part of a bow. To me, as soon as you do anything other than bow, the fight is on. If you're going to sit there and turn on power within, the dark moon buff and pursuers, the fight has already begun (got murdered by just this combination 2x today. Changed my perception of the whole thing). If I can punish, I will. When I pop grass, I do so at my own risk. I guess this is why I don't really get mad at people healing. If I let up enough that you can go pop a humanity or heal, that's my bad. If a host heals, I can run to a mob and do the same. When I heal during a fight, I know the immediate risk is a backstab. I think the game is balanced without players imposing additional rules that you know the gankers and lamers won't use anyway.

    Dude for your information the allow to buff/grass after a bow has its roots on DeS. It's guys like you that are trying to break the honor code in duels. It's just basic sportsmanship logic to let your opponent prepare before the combat. Backstabbing/attacking during a buff at the beginning of the duel is an act of cowardice that just makes me laugh for the noobness, so I just heal and try to restart the duel. Preparing a spell is a different case, and shouldn't be done until after both opponents buff/grass and are ready to fight. Buffing/grassing during the actual combat is a different story. It's just so simple I don't know why some guys don't follow it.


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:14 pm

    Going to dissagree. I wrestle and do jujitsu in tournaments. You come wearing your gear and ready to go, because once you've shaken hands (bowed) the fight is on. If you take action before that, you're disqualified.

    Now in dks there arn't officals to disqualify those who don't bow, so its a do at your own risk affair as the opponent isn't required to do the same. It may be "unsporting" not to bow, but its asking to be kicked in the teeth. Essentially, the fight starts whenever either party makes a move.

    You want to set your move up once the fight starts (either after a bow or once someone starts positioning or casts,) you have to deal with me trying to stop you. Not only does it force one to be creative with when and how they get off buffs, but it makes trying to get off said buff a high risk high reward choice, knowing when to risk it and when to play it safe are important skills.

    To grant the opponent a free advantage isn't sportsmanship, its foolishness.

    The goal is to have the overall advantage, this means taking every advantage one can while denying ones opponent as many as possible.


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by WyrmHero on Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:19 pm

    Ok Forum attack me while I buff but don't expect a fair duel from my part. I will heal and chain bs you whenever I can. By mixing invasion no rules combat with a duel we COULD have a fun duel but I don't think it's necessary to go through the whole mess. I would rather be invading.


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:29 pm

    If you want different rules in our duels, I will oblige. We also tend to meet where we have format rules that dissallow certain behavior (ie the lh arena,) I was merley conveying my general conduct and the reasoning behind it.

    (p.s. I never expect "fair" duels, and only facillitate them with the lh or in fcs. I rarely heal because its easy for me to get reliant on and I don't spawn gank unless the invader has spawn ganked me or its a sunbro because there is no satisfaction in winning when my opponent never had the opportunity to do anything, but thats as far as I go.)


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by WyrmHero on Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:48 pm

    Again it just turns out into a whole mess that makes the duel rather a one time surviving situation where everything goes. It's fun no doubt but I won't consider it a duel. I have a simple honor code that makes the game fair for experienced type of players (most noobs won't consider WoG spamming fair, as always the word "fair" is subjective and relative, as you always taught me).


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Taganov on Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:49 pm

    Spamming Wrath of God has little to do with fairness. It has a lot to do with skill though. Or lack thereof.

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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by joemann on Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:57 pm

    New to Dark Souls (only been playing the PC version since it released and only on weekends as I don't have time Mon-Thurs). However, in relation to the topic at hand regarding dueling etiquette, is there really such a thing as etiquette when two people are trying to kill each other?

    I've played other games in which players can PVP/duel each other, and there really is no such thing as etiquette. The duel begins when one player accepts the challenge/duel of another player. If you so choose to bow, buff, etc., then it is done at your own risk.

    Seriously, it is a fight to the death and begins once the challenge is accepted. To let the other person buff, bow, etc., is really kind of stupid because you are giving them time to try and gain some advantage on you (as far as buffing goes); and if one is stupid or polite enough to bow, then you open yourself up to be attacked. Fight to win, not to be polite; isn't that the point of a duel anyway?
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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Kiva the wanderer on Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:28 pm

    Do what I do stand there wait till they are ready then attack the bowing is a formality don't bother with it unless you win or is totally called for.


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Phoenix Rising on Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:56 pm

    Personally I allow 1 body buff and one weapon buff before a match. Anything beyond that is punishable by an arrow to the eye.


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Zhangbob on Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:51 pm

    there have been so many forum posts like this in dueling. I have been around a long time in the ps3 and im on pc now and nothing has changed.

    My advice to you wait for them to bow first. Its what i do. I have had people stand there and wait for me to bow before so they could come and bs me while im doing it. I'm just glad in the area you dont run into 3v1 traps


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by joemann on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:03 pm

    My own personal view (from other games I've played since I've not PVP-ed much on Dark Souls) about duels is as soon as the challenge is accepted one must immediately attack or defend.

    A perfect example of this from Dark Souls is the Ornstein and Smough fight. Once you die from that fight, as soon as you cross the fog you typically get attacked by Ornstein. If you don't have your shield up, you get hit hard, so one must immediately defend.

    Dueling should kind of be the same. The challenge is accepted and both players must defend or attack on the get-go without buffs, bows, etc.

    Also, not sure of this is perceived in Dark Souls duels, but using a healing item (estus flasks) is a part of the duel. If you allow your opponent to create enough time and space to down an estus flask, you deserve to lose. Using healing items in duels may be considered "unfair" by some, but if the game allows you to do it during a duel, why complain? It is part of the game mechanics and to not use them to your advantage is stupid.

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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:15 pm

    the issue with eustus is that its faster than humanity, giving the host an advantage. In des healing was both common and fair game, for the reasons you already specified.


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    Re: PC PVP etiquette ( Casters )

    Post by WyrmHero on Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:06 pm

    joemann wrote:My own personal view (from other games I've played since I've not PVP-ed much on Dark Souls) about duels is as soon as the challenge is accepted one must immediately attack or defend.

    A perfect example of this from Dark Souls is the Ornstein and Smough fight. Once you die from that fight, as soon as you cross the fog you typically get attacked by Ornstein. If you don't have your shield up, you get hit hard, so one must immediately defend.

    Dueling should kind of be the same. The challenge is accepted and both players must defend or attack on the get-go without buffs, bows, etc.

    Also, not sure of this is perceived in Dark Souls duels, but using a healing item (estus flasks) is a part of the duel. If you allow your opponent to create enough time and space to down an estus flask, you deserve to lose. Using healing items in duels may be considered "unfair" by some, but if the game allows you to do it during a duel, why complain? It is part of the game mechanics and to not use them to your advantage is stupid.

    My 2 copper anyway.

    LOL O&S might as well bow to you after the ganking. Dude you have no idea what dueling is in DkS I suggest you join our FCs so you learn basic dueling etiquette really.


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