Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

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    Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by thebigJ_A on Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:50 pm

    In the "Manus" page of the wiki, it claims that it was Kaathe who tricked or seduced the residents of Oolacile to dig up Manus. Are we so sure of this? Yes it's very clear, from Chester and Gough's dialogues, that a *serpent* is responsible. They do not, to my knowledge however, ever NAME the serpent.

    How do we know it wasn't Frampt? There is an interpretation of the Dark Souls story, a convincing one whether it's true or not, that ascribes to Frampt the role of secret villain. Linking the Flame may not be the 'Good' ending.

    It's a longer discussion than I intend to have here. I'm just saying that assuming it was Kaathe is a little... hasty. I'd suggest sticking to what we know rather than speculating, and changing "Darkstalker Kaathe" to "one of the Primordial Serpents".
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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:01 am

    What about all those other serpents? The Dark Lord ending shows at least 8 of them, couldn't any one of those be the serpent in question?

    Also, this should probably have a "spoiler" warning in the title. Not everyone (I didn't, for example) knows about that dialogue you're quoting.

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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by thebigJ_A on Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:01 am

    Forgive me. It doesn't seem like a spoiler to me, at least, no more than saying that you talk to Gough or Chester in the DLC, and I thought it wouldn't be a problem, this being the thread to discuss the DLC. My apologies.

    As to your first point, precisely. We *don't* know which it was. It's a fair bet it's one of the two we actually have met, but not a certainty. And I'd say it's NOT a fair bet that it's Kaathe. Whether you think it is depends on your view of the Serpents.
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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by Glutebrah on Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:32 am

    i can confirm, i was serpent


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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by CandleMax on Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:49 am

    Shouldn't this be in the archives, not PC discussion? Anyway, I think unproven speculation like that should be kept off the wiki


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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:52 am

    In any case I believe Kaathe and Frampt are the same being and all of the 8 serpents are one whole!


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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by thebigJ_A on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:29 am

    CandleMax wrote:Shouldn't this be in the archives, not PC discussion? Anyway, I think unproven speculation like that should be kept off the wiki

    Since it is specifically about PC content, and this is the PC section, I put it here. I'm quite sure console players avoiding anything to do with the new content until they can play it themselves would appreciate it. Besides, there's a note saying anything about the PC version will be moved here, anyway.

    And yes, that's my train of thought entirely. I thought I'd throw it out there to see if people agreed before attempting to change it.

    Edit: which I've just done
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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by SEANB240 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:42 pm

    I think the reasoning behind it is that Kaathe wants you to become the Dark Lord, which Manus was originally. The entire time he wants to usher in the age of man and the arrival of the Dark Lord, so it makes sense that his first pick was the OG, Manus. Since he was "dead", he had Oolacile mess with his tomb to awaken him.
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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:13 pm

    I do not believe Manus was a Dark Lord. He mentioned to be a Primeval Human, and one that was roused when his Grave was disturbed.

    I would suggest that Kaathe knowing of Manus used the inhabitants of Oolacile to inflict the Abyss upon themselves.... sort of like the Paradise Lost equivalent of Satan tricking eve into inflicting Gods ire upon herself and Adam.

    The references to the snake, in both dark souls and mythology, as a deciever would reinforce this I think.


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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by thebigJ_A on Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:45 pm

    ViralEnsign_ wrote:I do not believe Manus was a Dark Lord. He mentioned to be a Primeval Human, and one that was roused when his Grave was disturbed.

    I would suggest that Kaathe knowing of Manus used the inhabitants of Oolacile to inflict the Abyss upon themselves.... sort of like the Paradise Lost equivalent of Satan tricking eve into inflicting Gods ire upon herself and Adam.

    The references to the snake, in both dark souls and mythology, as a deciever would reinforce this I think.

    That's all very good. I might even agree with it. Point is, though, it's speculation. We aren't told it was Kaathe. As a matter of fact, the wording used very conspicuously refuses to name who it was. So long as we don't know for certain, stating something as fact on a wiki is inappropriate. Thus, I changed it.

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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by Kwazi on Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:59 pm

    I just thought of something.

    What if the serpents tempted the citizens of Oolacile to wake Manus to spread humanity? With widespread humanity there would be a lot more undead kindling bonfires and a lot more undead turning human thanks to the humanities. With that, Kaathe would have his human champion, and Frampt would have the bonfire lighter. It seems to have worked too, with all the undead running around everywhere.

    I might be overthinking it but it just clicked in my head.
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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:03 am

    thebigJ_A wrote:
    ViralEnsign_ wrote:I do not believe Manus was a Dark Lord. He mentioned to be a Primeval Human, and one that was roused when his Grave was disturbed.

    I would suggest that Kaathe knowing of Manus used the inhabitants of Oolacile to inflict the Abyss upon themselves.... sort of like the Paradise Lost equivalent of Satan tricking eve into inflicting Gods ire upon herself and Adam.

    The references to the snake, in both dark souls and mythology, as a deciever would reinforce this I think.

    That's all very good. I might even agree with it. Point is, though, it's speculation. We aren't told it was Kaathe. As a matter of fact, the wording used very conspicuously refuses to name who it was. So long as we don't know for certain, stating something as fact on a wiki is inappropriate. Thus, I changed it.

    There is evidence that Manus is a Primeval human and not the Dark Lord.... The Chosen Undead is the first Dark Lord because this would have been the forst time in history the Flames had begun to fade.... and thus before hand there could have been no dark lord.

    Manus is the source of the abyss but not necessarily the ruler of it. Whe do no know what caused him to generate the Abyss... other than his 'humanity running wild' but even then we dont know how the unearthing of his grave caused that.


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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by Kwazi on Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:06 am

    For the generating Abyss it probably had something to do with his silver pendant that he lost. Someone probably stole it when he was being awoken and as a result he went crazy. The pendant also probably stopped all that abyss stuff from happening since it repels abyss sorceries.
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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:09 am

    Ummmm what?!

    Artorias owned the silver pendant and that was his charm against the abyss.... Unless it says that it came from manus in which case that is big lore right there!

    Because we know that pendants embody some sort of familiar emotions dont we.... so i suppose if manus lost that emotion that was holding his humanity in check then it would rage.

    Ill have to look into the pendant description...


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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by SEANB240 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:11 am

    ViralEnsign_ wrote:I do not believe Manus was a Dark Lord.

    To clarify, he was the one Kaathe wanted to usher in the age of dark at the time. No age of dark, no Dark Lord, but Manus was more than likely the prime candidate.

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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by Kwazi on Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:15 am

    Yep, says in his soul description. It's actually not the silver pendant but he still lost a pendant and that probably drove him crazy. How did they even find an abyss repelling pendant anyway? If someone stole his pendant than ran off somewhere (which is entirely possible) it probably would've stayed with them for a good while and passed down to Artorias who could walk the abyss.


    Edit: Well the broken pendant is actually a thing but the Silver pendant with the power to repel the Abyss might've been forged from the other half, perhaps with less power than the full pendant but enough for Artorias?
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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by thebigJ_A on Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:27 am

    Kwazi wrote:Yep, says in his soul description. It's actually not the silver pendant but he still lost a pendant and that probably drove him crazy. How did they even find an abyss repelling pendant anyway? If someone stole his pendant than ran off somewhere (which is entirely possible) it probably would've stayed with them for a good while and passed down to Artorias who could walk the abyss.


    Edit: Well the broken pendant is actually a thing but the Silver pendant with the power to repel the Abyss might've been forged from the other half, perhaps with less power than the full pendant but enough for Artorias?

    I was just about to say, you were confusing the Broken Pendant with the Silver Pendant, but it seems you realized your mistake. Silver coming from the 'other half' of the broken seems like a very big stretch, though. No evidence for it at all. No reason to think it, and plenty not to. Manus reached through time to get the broken pendant back from you. If the Silver was part of it, he'd have gotten it back pretty easily, since it's sitting right outside his front door.
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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:00 am

    SEANB240 wrote:
    ViralEnsign_ wrote:I do not believe Manus was a Dark Lord.

    To clarify, he was the one Kaathe wanted to usher in the age of dark at the time. No age of dark, no Dark Lord, but Manus was more than likely the prime candidate.

    We again don't know that. Thats specultaion. it may simply be that the serpents saw a means for secure power for themselve and put events into motion.


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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by SEANB240 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:56 am

    ^ I know, just throwing in my .02


    ViralEnsign_ wrote:

    There is evidence that Manus is a Primeval human and not the Dark Lord.... The Chosen Undead is the first Dark Lord because this would have been the forst time in history the Flames had begun to fade.... and thus before hand there could have been no dark lord.

    I thought Gwyn sacrificed himself to relight it when it was fading before. I also think this is irrelevant, because obviously whether they are fading or not doesn't matter in regards to the rise of the Dark Lord if you can just kill Gwyn and walk away.

    Manus is the source of the abyss but not necessarily the ruler of it. Whe do no know what caused him to generate the Abyss... other than his 'humanity running wild' but even then we dont know how the unearthing of his grave caused that.

    I think it's just the whole deal with ancient kings being buried with their stuff, but it's cursed and if you mess with it, bad stuff happens. Timur's grave in Uzbekistan, for instance.

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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by ChizFreak on Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:48 pm

    I wrote that in the Wiki, but someone edited it and wrote the same I did
    but in a different manner, not sure why. Speculation and a very
    probable theory/hypothesis are two different things. The fact that
    Kaathe may be the Dark Serpent mentioned is supported by many facts.
    It's not certain, and thus it's not said so, but it's said it's
    probable.

    Manus is the Primeval Man:

    • He is found in the tomb of the Primeval Man. (gough says so)
    • He was once a man. (his soul description says so).
    The Oolacile Folk awoke the Primeval Man and caused his rage:

    • Whether or not tricked by a Dark Serpent, they caused their own demise. (gough says so).
    • It
      is uncertain which serpent is the Dark Serpent, but I believe it's
      Kaathe, because he fits perfectly the being who would do that. He leads the DarkWraiths, he wants the Dark Lord to rise.
    The wild guys we fight in Oolacile Township and Chasm of the Abyss are the Oolacile Folk whose humanity went wild.

    • Can't remember where exactly but I believe that their heads' description says so.
    As
    an extra I believe that Manus is the Pygmy. We know that Humanity
    itself (the item, the essence, not the enemy), it's a fragment of the
    Dark Soul. Somehow, the Dark Soul was split and delivered to all humans
    and became humanity. This suggests that the Pygmy is the Primeval Man.
    Just join the points, Manus = Pygmy.


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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by ChizFreak on Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:04 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:I wrote that in the Wiki, but someone edited it and wrote the same I did
    but in a different manner, not sure why. Speculation and a very
    probable theory/hypothesis are two different things. The fact that
    Kaathe may be the Dark Serpent mentioned is supported by many facts.
    It's not certain, and thus it's not said so, but it's said it's
    probable.

    Manus is the Primeval Man:

    • He is found in the tomb of the Primeval Man. (gough says so)
    • He was once a man. (his soul description says so).
    The Oolacile Folk awoke the Primeval Man and caused his rage:

    • Whether or not tricked by a Dark Serpent, they caused their own demise. (gough says so).
    • It
      is uncertain which serpent is the Dark Serpent, but I believe it's
      Kaathe, because he fits perfectly the being who would do that. He leads the DarkWraiths, he wants the Dark Lord to rise.
    The wild guys we fight in Oolacile Township and Chasm of the Abyss are the Oolacile Folk whose humanity went wild.

    • Can't remember where exactly but I believe that their heads' description says so.
    As
    an extra I believe that Manus is the Pygmy. We know that Humanity
    itself (the item, the essence, not the enemy), it's a fragment of the
    Dark Soul. Somehow, the Dark Soul was split and delivered to all humans
    and became humanity. This suggests that the Pygmy is the Primeval Man.
    Just join the points, Manus = Pygmy.

    What the hell is going on, I had to write all that like 6 times because everytime I posted it parts were deleted or being misplaced. I think something is wrong with the posting-system of the forum.


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    Re: Kaathe tricked Oolacile? IDK

    Post by thebigJ_A on Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:31 am

    ChizFreak wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:I wrote that in the Wiki, but someone edited it and wrote the same I did
    but in a different manner, not sure why. Speculation and a very
    probable theory/hypothesis are two different things. The fact that
    Kaathe may be the Dark Serpent mentioned is supported by many facts.
    It's not certain, and thus it's not said so, but it's said it's
    probable.

    Manus is the Primeval Man:

    • He is found in the tomb of the Primeval Man. (gough says so)
    • He was once a man. (his soul description says so).
    The Oolacile Folk awoke the Primeval Man and caused his rage:

    • Whether or not tricked by a Dark Serpent, they caused their own demise. (gough says so).
    • It
      is uncertain which serpent is the Dark Serpent, but I believe it's
      Kaathe, because he fits perfectly the being who would do that. He leads the DarkWraiths, he wants the Dark Lord to rise.
    The wild guys we fight in Oolacile Township and Chasm of the Abyss are the Oolacile Folk whose humanity went wild.

    • Can't remember where exactly but I believe that their heads' description says so.
    As
    an extra I believe that Manus is the Pygmy. We know that Humanity
    itself (the item, the essence, not the enemy), it's a fragment of the
    Dark Soul. Somehow, the Dark Soul was split and delivered to all humans
    and became humanity. This suggests that the Pygmy is the Primeval Man.
    Just join the points, Manus = Pygmy.

    What the hell is going on, I had to write all that like 6 times because everytime I posted it parts were deleted or being misplaced. I think something is wrong with the posting-system of the forum.

    I don't know what you wrote, but what the wiki said was "Kaathe urged the citizens of Oolacile to go delving in the dark of the Abyss...". That's just a flat statement of supposed fact, no maybes or room for doubt. So, I changed it to, "An unidentified Primordial Serpent (whether it was Kaathe or Frampt is uncertain) urged the citizens...". See? Leaves room for the speculation that is proper.

    I'm not saying I disagree that it was Kaathe. It may have been. But I do notice that you say there are "many facts" supporting Kaathe being the one, yet you fail to mention any of them.

    Instead, you go off on an almost unrelated tangent. I'm not sure what the point of your list of facts is. You prove Manus was the primeval man referred to. Ok...? We know that, that's not the question. The game straight-up TELLS us that's who he is. (The person who mentioned him possibly being a Dark Lord is just speculalting himself, and wildly I might add). We're talking about what serpent is responsible. The only thing in there that's relevant to the question is that you "believe...he fits perfectly" because he wants the Dark Lord to rise. Alright, maybe it fits, maybe not (see what I mentioned before, the ending Kaathe wants for the game is arguably the GOOD ending), but that's not evidence. It's just an opinion. A basis for speculation.

    Oh, and on your (even more) off-topic bit about Manus being the pygmy? I agree. Totally. It's speculation, but my speculation matches yours in that matter.

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