Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

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    Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by Derpwraith on Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:39 pm

    As the name 'Undead' suggests, an undead is a normal human who has simply died, correct? If so, why should they be considered outcasts if death is unavoidable? Is it a never ending cycle in which those who smite the outcasts known as undead become outcasts themselves no matter how long it will take? Strange..


    Last edited by InfiniteDoomsday on Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:12 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Spelling Error)


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by WyrmHero on Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:59 pm

    An Undead is a human who is affected by the Undead Curse and bear the mark of the Darksign. Those who are Undead will live forever as Hollows once they run out of humanity. However, I think some Undead actually die, as evidenced by the corpses you find around the world.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by Shkar on Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:01 pm

    The Undead are in fact still alive. They have a functioning set of heart and lungs, and are affected by poison.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by Derpwraith on Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:03 pm

    WyrmHero wrote:An Undead is a human who is affected by the Undead Curse and bear the mark of the Darksign. Those who are Undead will live forever as Hollows once they run out of humanity. However, I think some Undead actually die, as evidenced by the corpses you find around the world.
    Thats like Demon's Souls, the message it says when you die in soul form says "Phantom, you were not able to achieve your goal, you must leave this world". So if the whole undead curse thing was real and you were to die whilst hollow, you're just gone forever. Same with Soul Form in Demon's Souls.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:19 am

    My theory about this is that the Darksign brands the undead right? So and undead is a being that way at one point dead but now is not.


    Thus I would suggest that an undead has the capacity due to the Dark sign to hold within themselves more souls/ soul energy than that of a normal human (I assume that one soul in the game is equivalent to the amount/ size of the soul that one human can hold) .

    Thus by using this soul energy they become far more powerful than humans ever could.

    Thus I think people fear the Undead for this ability they possess and send them away to either die, go hollow, or succeed in relighting the flame!


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by vatar5 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:36 am

    Why are undeads hostile to you?Why the crestfallen guy/Laurentius/Rhea/Logan attacks you when undead?
    Because undead=Madness so people were forced to isolate them,since they can't be killed,to be safe.

    Similar to Demon Souls where souls were sanity and the loss of souls lead to madness like...the crestfallen guy.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:09 am

    ^Because they are Hollows. Hollows are Undead that got insane due to the lack of humanity. Logan does not go Hollow by the way, he went mad for studying too much.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:12 am

    And Hollowness seems to be caused by a combination of death and emptiness. Perhaps when an undead loses all of its souls and humanity.

    See the Crestfallen Knights in Sen's for that little tid bit. After making it to Anor Londo he mentions to you how he gets his goods. He says that he collects it from Undead like you. But the trick is to do it before they go fully Hollow.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by dianaduh on Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:45 pm

    WyrmHero wrote:^Because they are Hollows. Hollows are Undead that got insane due to the lack of humanity. Logan does not go Hollow by the way, he went mad for studying too much.

    so you're saying that hollow and undead aren't exactly the same thing? cause when rest at the bonfire there's the option of "Reverse Hollowing"
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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by Seenblack on Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:22 pm

    The Crestfallen Merchant actually gives a very clear clue as to how the undead and "Hollowing" works. I can't remember exactly what he says but the gist of what he said and how I perceive it is this. When an undead dies in human form, they lose their humanity/souls and are put on their last limb, thrown out at their last place of rest in a cruel, hideous form. In the undead/hollowed form (whichever you want to call it) the undead can regain their humanity and be granted another chance at life, another chance in case of death. This is a double edge sword however. For if they die before they can regain their humanity, the killing blow causes the last of your sanity, what makes you, you. Escapes your mind, causing the undead to hollow on the spot, losing all remnants of what make the undead an individual. They respawn as nothing more than a mindless beast, living the rest of their eternity in a furious rage, attacking any adventurer who comes around.

    Pardon the wall of text, just stating how I feel.
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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:55 pm

    ..... why did no one read my post..... thats exactly what I said...


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by Derpwraith on Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:05 pm

    OOOH DLC IDEA! What if, in an alternate timeline or something like that, most if not all undead who havent gone hollow broke loose from lordran and the undead asylum and are lead by rogue undead who managed to recieve power beyond human limitation. (like how the player character can become incredibly powerful themself.) They would then have an all out war with the humans, and new areas would be certain places in Astora, Thorolund, Vinheim, The Great Swamp, The East, etc. (I was thinking of another surviving ancient dragon to be put there, like a chinese dragon since the east is basically asia.)


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by Orango19 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:43 am

    You seem to be new to the Dark Souls universe...
    Undeath is the hidden power every human has. It is only unlocked during Dark times. This true immortality is what the gods fear.

    And Hollowing occurs when you are playing Offline; can't find Humanities to coop with a NPC to defeat a boss; and finally ragequit the game, giving up on your life in Lordran. lol. I'm pretty sure all the Hollows in the Burg went through this.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:46 am

    dianaduh wrote:
    WyrmHero wrote:^Because they are Hollows. Hollows are Undead that got insane due to the lack of humanity. Logan does not go Hollow by the way, he went mad for studying too much.

    so you're saying that hollow and undead aren't exactly the same thing? cause when rest at the bonfire there's the option of "Reverse Hollowing"

    Hollow= an Undead that went crazy/insane because of lack humanity. If you attack some of the NPCs, some will ask you if you have gone Hollow, or insane. You can be human, but you're still Undead because of the curse. The only way to stay sane is by retaining humanity.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by dianaduh on Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:22 pm

    I wonder if all this pilgrimage thing isn't just our char madness, cause we start as hollows
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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by Derpwraith on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:03 pm

    dianaduh wrote:I wonder if all this pilgrimage thing isn't just our char madness, cause we start as hollows
    Maybe people turn fully hollow after a certain period of time without humanity.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:09 pm

    Yeah our character is on the brink of hollowness, hasn't fully turned hollow.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by dianaduh on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:59 pm

    fully hollow for me is the case of npcs corpses we find.
    could a completely mad hollow reverse hollowing acquiring humanity, or is this a no way back stage?
    cause if so, hollow npcs could get their sanity back if they kill you in human form
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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by samster628 on Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:03 am

    hmm. My ha'penny's worth (on this sadly deceased thread) is thus.

    Humans and undead are one and the same exept that humans have their humanity bound to them in some way. when they die the humanity within them peacefully leaves allowing them to remain at rest. the undead however have been afflicted with the darksign which allows their humanity to escape. upon death their humanity will leave in a dreadfully unpeaceful way and the conciousness never truly goes to rest so the corpse remains animated.
    Undead with humanity are almost humans but opon their death they will eventually lose their mind and become insane wild corpses acting on instinct to attack. this lengh of time between the loss of humanity and hollowing depends upon the willpower of the person. if they are weak minded and unfocused on a goal (like the crestfallen knight) they will become hollow almost immediatly. If they are stong willed or with a goal (for the male hollow merchant it appears to be to look after his imaginary pet) they can remain reasonably sane for an indefinite lengh of time. and of corese if hollows or prehaps even true hollows (insane hollows) get humanity they become almost human again. it sounds like Seig has been hollow but has had his humanity restored by his daughter in the past if you follow their storyline.
    It is my beleif that the corpses you see in the game are ether human corpses, corpes of the undead who appear to have become inanimite after many many years (if thats even possible) or undead who became true humans again and died after gwyn rekindled the first flame.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by Shkar on Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:51 pm

    samster628 wrote:hmm. My ha'penny's worth (on this sadly deceased thread) is thus.

    Humans and undead are one and the same exept that humans have their humanity bound to them in some way. when they die the humanity within them peacefully leaves allowing them to remain at rest. the undead however have been afflicted with the darksign which allows their humanity to escape. upon death their humanity will leave in a dreadfully unpeaceful way and the conciousness never truly goes to rest so the corpse remains animated.
    Undead with humanity are almost humans but opon their death they will eventually lose their mind and become insane wild corpses acting on instinct to attack. this lengh of time between the loss of humanity and hollowing depends upon the willpower of the person. if they are weak minded and unfocused on a goal (like the crestfallen knight) they will become hollow almost immediatly. If they are stong willed or with a goal (for the male hollow merchant it appears to be to look after his imaginary pet) they can remain reasonably sane for an indefinite lengh of time. and of corese if hollows or prehaps even true hollows (insane hollows) get humanity they become almost human again. it sounds like Seig has been hollow but has had his humanity restored by his daughter in the past if you follow their storyline.
    It is my beleif that the corpses you see in the game are ether human corpses, corpes of the undead who appear to have become inanimite after many many years (if thats even possible) or undead who became true humans again and died after gwyn rekindled the first flame.

    The last one, at least, is probably not accurate. It has been 1000 years since Gwyn rekindled the flame; the bodies wouldn't be there that long.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:57 pm

    The undead cannot die; Vampires are considered undead, etc.

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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by samster628 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:33 am

    Shkar wrote:
    samster628 wrote:
    It is my beleif that the corpses you see in the game are ether human corpses, corpes of the undead who appear to have become inanimite after many many years (if thats even possible) or undead who became true humans again and died after gwyn rekindled the first flame.

    The last one, at least, is probably not accurate. It has been 1000 years since Gwyn rekindled the flame; the bodies wouldn't be there that long.

    don't forget time is distorted in lorderan also we have no idea when the flame was rekindled


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:20 pm

    samster628 wrote:
    Shkar wrote:
    samster628 wrote:
    It is my beleif that the corpses you see in the game are ether human corpses, corpes of the undead who appear to have become inanimite after many many years (if thats even possible) or undead who became true humans again and died after gwyn rekindled the first flame.

    The last one, at least, is probably not accurate. It has been 1000 years since Gwyn rekindled the flame; the bodies wouldn't be there that long.

    don't forget time is distorted in lorderan also we have no idea when the flame was rekindled

    And the bodies may phase in and out of existance.


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by Shkar on Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:13 pm

    samster628 wrote:
    Shkar wrote:
    samster628 wrote:
    It is my beleif that the corpses you see in the game are ether human corpses, corpes of the undead who appear to have become inanimite after many many years (if thats even possible) or undead who became true humans again and died after gwyn rekindled the first flame.

    The last one, at least, is probably not accurate. It has been 1000 years since Gwyn rekindled the flame; the bodies wouldn't be there that long.

    don't forget time is distorted in lorderan also we have no idea when the flame was rekindled

    I would think that the time distortion would not affect the actual experiences of a person living through that time period. I figured it basically just meant the worlds meeting at different points and such. Besides, the time distortion doesn't have any actual, discussed "meaning". In my experience, it's basically just thrown around whenever there is any kind of mention of "time".


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    Re: Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

    Post by DissidentCitizen on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:04 pm

    The time distortion aspect always struck me as being pulled form Stephen King's play book. He uses a similar plot device in his Dark Tower series with what he calls "thinnies" or places where the walls between universes are so thin that people and beings are free to pass back and forth between worlds, even worlds from different times.

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