Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

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    Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:47 am

    Why do people have a problem with this?

    The way I see it not only do you deserve it if you get hit (excluding the lagtastic phantom hits from 20 feet away) but the toggle escape will break you out on the first hit if you're really quick and the second hit if you're not. In addition almost everyone has 53+ poise which prevents a greatsword from stunning one in a single hit meaning one has to screw up repeatedly and in fairly rapid succession to be stunlocked.

    Spoiler:
    Essentially I see the nerf as an unnecessary hit to the dps of an entire weapon class in an effort to mitigate a mechanic that is easily evaded.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:52 am

    Personally the toggle escape is not something I imagine was intentionally put in the game.... and hell I absolutely hate it when someone can pick up the games easiest to get weapons and spam r1 to high hell and say that it was a great game.....

    I dont think its fair to say that because I got hit I deserve....no chance to continue fighting because someone who is using a weapon which should be slow by nature spammed a bumper at me.

    Correct me if im wrong but DeS had push lock for cats but no stun lock right.

    Though I have to admit that the nerf did hit dps for the weapons type, however it is still a hugely viable weapon class.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:54 am

    DES had stunlocks as well. Nerarly every weapon would stunlock actually, the toggle escape was an essential skill.

    They were more than capable of going through all of someones hp.

    Edit:
    Spoiler:
    They will probably be viable yes but I still don't see the nerf as necessary. There are weapons that are just as good in nearly every class, blanket nerfing greatswords will put them at a disadvantage


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:15 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by The Letter X on Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:02 am

    I personally don't use greatswords, but I still wish the attack speed would stay the same. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can only predict that the greatswords will have to become hit and run or roll-attack weapons, considering they are losing one of their best assets. (I'm not saying they will only be useful for that, but more commonly used that way) The point of having a giant freaking sword in your hands is meant to hit people hard, and if you manage to hit them, then they should be still fairly staggered from your first blow while you're winding up for your next. I make it a point NOT to get hit by a GS so I can not get stun-locked by it, and that's the way it should be. If I see someone with a GS I should want to not get hit, and I should have to worry if I DO get hit.

    It is what it is, however. I'm sure there will be new techniques to make up for it once it comes.
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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by RANT on Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:05 am

    yeah, i actualy think that its f'ed up that gs' got hit hard like that, it was easy enough to toggle out of them if you practiced a little but damn was it really necessary to nerf the speed? EVERYONE frecking stacks poise(specially dex build since their weapons are so damn light) i actaully never stunlocked unless im up against two or more opponents, if enything those damn spear needed to get nerfed, and kats are faster now? wtf was from thinking but of course this beign a japanese game the katanas have to be the most powerful weapons in the game but we're not talking about that here but it does piss me off specially since ultra weapons didnt get hyper armor sigh*


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by WyrmHero on Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:08 am

    I agree with Viral.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:16 am

    My response is the same again, toggle out. It was in demons, if they didn't want it in dark then it wouldn't be there.

    This means that not only do you have the opportunity to continue fighting, but you can parry for serious damage to punish their stunlock.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by WyrmHero on Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:49 am

    I use toggle out a lot but I feel stupid depending on a glitch to "escape" stunlock, when it's clearly not intended in the first place. Even if it exists in DeS, push lock was just an abuse of a mechanic that never got patched.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:59 am

    Stunlocking exsisted in demons too. nearly EVERY weapon would stunlock in demons. Not pushlock, that was just kats (i think) but legitimately stun lock. Almost everything could do it.

    Its obviosly intended in dks because (assuming the opponent has low enough poise for it) there are several weapons that will stunlock in dks as well, the zewihander, falchion, dagger, murakumo. If stunlocking is unintentional then why are these weapons being left alone?

    There's no way you can convince me that they designed the poise system and every weapon class without realising stunlocking was possible, and lowering poise damage or stun length would have fixed the problem if the effect was undesirable even if it was unintentional.

    I seriously doubt the toggle escape is a glitch, as I said it was in demons and the fact that most everything in demons would stunlock long enough to kill leads me to believe that it was intentionl as a method of escape, no less so here.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by WyrmHero on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:08 am

    I'm actually playing DeS and there's no infinite stunlock unless it's push lock. Everyone can escape a stunlock just by rolling away ASAP. They remove the push and replace it with a slower kick in DkS as a way to prevent the horrible abuse of the mechanic.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:19 am

    I never said it was infinite. I'm aware that its not. The bbs for example stuns for 3 hits in both hands if I remember right, the mirdan hammer for 4, the greataxe for 2-3 (not that that matters, it only takes 2-3 hits to kill).

    Its even more pronounced with buffs, as most anything will kill in just a few hits if its buffed.

    This isn't about des though, I mentioned des because it was present in that game as well, leading me to believe that if they didn't want it in game that it wouldn't be there. (it being both the toggle escape and stunlocking)


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by Siegfried. on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:25 am

    ViralEnsign_ wrote:I dont think its fair to say that because I got hit I deserve....no chance to continue fighting because someone who is using a weapon which should be slow by nature spammed a bumper at me.

    I'm just being pedantic here, but:

    In real life, greatswords are actually extremely fast weapons. They're essentially a beefier kind of longsword (which is, in itself, primarily a two-handed weapon) and not much heavier, but with longer hilts. That longer hilt allows more space between each hand, which translates to a longer "lever" action when striking -- thus, more speed despite the slightly increased weight.

    If FromSoftware really wanted to be realistic with the speed of the greatswords, they'd be even faster than they are pre-PTDE.
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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by cloudyeki on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:28 am

    Has anyone tried unlocking and turning with the hit? Just curious, because I always thought that the GS' greatest strength wasn't it's stunlocking, but it's ability to hit someone EXTREMELY easily as they approach from any side.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by ROOSTER330 on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:40 am

    Siegfried. wrote:
    ViralEnsign_ wrote:I dont think its fair to say that because I got hit I deserve....no chance to continue fighting because someone who is using a weapon which should be slow by nature spammed a bumper at me.

    I'm just being pedantic here, but:

    In real life, greatswords are actually extremely fast weapons. They're essentially a beefier kind of longsword (which is, in itself, primarily a two-handed weapon) and not much heavier, but with longer hilts. That longer hilt allows more space between each hand, which translates to a longer "lever" action when striking -- thus, more speed despite the slightly increased weight.

    If FromSoftware really wanted to be realistic with the speed of the greatswords, they'd be even faster than they are pre-PTDE.

    Took the words outta my mouth. +1. The real life equivalent to the GS in DKS are just as fast to swing as a katana or other similair sized weapons. Unfortunately movies/games and popular culture would have everyone thinking differently.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by cloudyeki on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:44 am

    Probably do to the fact that you got a fast swing going with a bit of an unwieldy object. And I mean in the sense that it's larger and much harder to keep in control when compared to a shorter blade. Swing a chair around and see how easy it is, then do the same in a vacuum. I'll tell you now it's not the weight that makes them awkward, it's the size.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by ROOSTER330 on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:49 am

    I occasionally use a zwe, just because it was my favorite pve weapon way back when. For sheer game mechanics, if there was no stunlock, heavy weapons would have NO purpose. Especially in pvp. Stunlock is From's way of trying to even the playing field. Get rid of stunlock, you would have to double the damage from the ridiculously slow weapons or speed them up significantly.

    Although totally unrealistic, Im fine with the system for the most part. Wouldnt expect dks to be too realistic anyways.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by Siegfried. on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:50 am

    Probably do to the fact that you got a fast swing going with a bit of an unwieldy object. And I mean in the sense that it's larger and much harder to keep in control when compared to a shorter blade. Swing a chair around and see how easy it is, then do the same in a vacuum. I'll tell you now it's not the weight that makes them awkward, it's the size.

    Swords are difficult to swing around at first, but it has less to do with their weight or size and more to do with their specific balance. To a beginner, a sword's balance feels strange and lopsided, but when you get used to it, you realise how said balance supports the weapon's intended technique.

    Most sword strikes, especially with two-handed examples like longswords, greatswords and katanas, are very efficiently pathed and very tightly controlled. You don't use wide swings most of the time -- you strike directly towards the target with the type of cut angle you want and then draw the blade out into another guard, ward or stance. Certain cuts are wider than others, with horizontal cuts obviously being wider than diagonal ones, which are in turn wider than vertical ones. But given that you never strike to hit multiple targets, it's much more important for an attack to be tight and efficient.

    Make no mistake: the sword styles of medieval Europe were just as developed and efficient as their East Asian counterparts. Arguably superior in some ways and arguably inferior in others, but essentially at the same level of sophistication.

    Although totally unrealistic, Im fine with the system for the most part. Wouldnt expect dks to be too realistic anyways.

    Frankly, I'm just happy that FromSoftware got the weapon designs right for the mundane stuff. I'm kind of sick of picking up weapons in RPGs claiming to be weapons of exceptional make that look like they belong in some dude's phony collection rather than in the hands of an actual warrior.


    Last edited by Siegfried. on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by ROOSTER330 on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:52 am

    cloudyeki wrote:Probably do to the fact that you got a fast swing going with a bit of an unwieldy object. And I mean in the sense that it's larger and much harder to keep in control when compared to a shorter blade. Swing a chair around and see how easy it is, then do the same in a vacuum. I'll tell you now it's not the weight that makes them awkward, it's the size.

    Then why are they so slow? Just means you need more str, dex to wield it right? And with two hands, on a longer handle, you have more leverage for your more difficult weapon, shouldnt make that much of a difference.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by cloudyeki on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:55 am

    I'm talking about the weapon trope where big weapons are always slow and slim/small weapons are fast. You nailed it on the head with the difference between an unskilled vs skilled. I still think the Kilij is better than the katana. And I REALLY wanna get a damascus knife.

    I still think that the great sword nerf was a bit extreme, but I wanna see how the meta plays out with it.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:56 am

    A baseball bat is a suprisingly good example. Though specific and dumbed down, a baseball bat can be just as big as a longsword, or even greatsword, and they're very tightly controlled. Lever action (in the wrists and elbows) is quite capable of keeping control over somewhat heavy and fast moving objects.

    Any who, back on topic, I've got viral and wyrm seeing it as unfair (though I disagree for the reasons I've explained) so who else has a problem with greatswords or stunlocking in general and why?


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by ROOSTER330 on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:58 am

    cloudyeki wrote:I'm talking about the weapon trope where big weapons are always slow and slim/small weapons are fast. You nailed it on the head with the difference between an unskilled vs skilled. I still think the Kilij is better than the katana. And I REALLY wanna get a damascus knife.

    I still think that the great sword nerf was a bit extreme, but I wanna see how the meta plays out with it.

    Yeah I thought gs nerf was wrong. Will see I guess. I wish they would give some love to strength weapons for once lol


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by Siegfried. on Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:00 am

    It really depends how the meta plays out on a wider scale. I really liked greatsword stunlock during the era of DWGR abusers, because it allowed mid-rolling characters to compete. On the other hand, it was also good because it bridged the disparity between split-damage weapons, single-damage weapons and single-damage weapons with buffs. So greatswords were excellent for upgrading into a split-damage type, because the stunlock meant that your lesser damage didn't mean so much.

    Personally, I don't have much issue with stunlock, at least for two or three hits.
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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by cloudyeki on Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:01 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:A baseball bat is a suprisingly good example. Though specific and dumbed down, a baseball bat can be just as big as a longsword, or even greatsword, and they're very tightly controlled. Lever action (in the wrists and elbows) is quite capable of keeping control over somewhat heavy and fast moving objects.

    Swing the bat and try to stop it an inch early >_> Something I was drilled in and it hurts like a *****.

    I've been stunlocked a lot before, but that was because of 0 poise builds. And idiot mistakes. Or ganks.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:16 am

    As I said, dumbed down. Also, I'm more than capable of stopping early. It only hurts if I intended to hit something and have to stop early (ie to not hit someone), If I intend to hit something (ball, person, what have you) and then stop its easy to do, and if I intend to stop short of hitting something its easy.

    I would also guess that greatsword users didn't make a habit of swinging as if they intended to cut the guy in half, thats called overcommitment and its dangerous in a fight. Same as boxing here, if you punch so hard that the momentum carries you off balance when you miss then you're going to get the hell beat out of you.

    Ultimately however, a realism arguement is pointless as this is a game and it has magic and a 5'3" 97 lb girl can wear armor made of stone thats 6" thick and wave around a massive and also stone axe.


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    Re: Stunlocking *spoilered spoilers.

    Post by Siegfried. on Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:22 am

    I'm under the impression that the power of souls allows characters in this game to exceed normal human limitations. Most regular humans would probably top out at something like 20 strength, for instance, but absorbing the essence of other beings allows our characters to wield silly things like the Demon Great Machete in one hand.

    One of the things I like about Dark Souls and Demon's Souls is that there's a mundane, functional way of things underneath all the magic and folklore. After all, much of the weapons and armour in both games are designed specifically to at least look realistic. I think FromSoftware really wanted to provide the illusion of a mundane way of things as well, and it really comes through to me.

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