Velka, Goddess of Sin

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    Shkar
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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Shkar on Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:25 pm

    Orango19 wrote:
    Shkar wrote:Hm...

    I wonder if I could come up with a evidence to support the random thought I just had, which is the possibility that Velka, the blacksmith God and etc never actually existed and are just legends.

    Kinda hard to do so; I originaly used to think like that.
    But there are way too many evidences of their existence. Living evidences.

    The harpies are Velka acolytes / servants; and 'probably' just like the Dragon Covenant, the Velka servants try to look more like her (being half crows).

    We have the titanite Demons which are technically the offsprings of the Blacksmith God.

    And for last, the Mimics, which are to say the least, little copies of the God of Avarice.

    The God of Avarice can be ditched as simply a legend; but the BG and Velka being only legends would raise the question of where the TDemons and the Harpies came from?

    One is a living statue and the other lives in a painting. For all we know, and decently powerful wizard could create them. Heck, Seath made crystal golems.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by FellipeMariano on Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:02 pm

    Also, Velka's Talisman is a original tuff of Velka's Hair (as the description says), so, Velka really exist.

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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Shkar on Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:09 pm

    FellipeMariano wrote:Also, Velka's Talisman is a original tuff of Velka's Hair (as the description says), so, Velka really exist.

    A very valid point!

    Crows don't have hair.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by FellipeMariano on Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:40 pm

    Shkar wrote:
    FellipeMariano wrote:Also, Velka's Talisman is a original tuff of Velka's Hair (as the description says), so, Velka really exist.

    A very valid point!

    Crows don't have hair.

    I'm not saying that she isn't the crow... she can, by some way, shapeshifter into a crow (just for example) as the game says she is/was a powerful witch.

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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Shkar on Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:05 am

    FellipeMariano wrote:
    Shkar wrote:
    FellipeMariano wrote:Also, Velka's Talisman is a original tuff of Velka's Hair (as the description says), so, Velka really exist.

    A very valid point!

    Crows don't have hair.

    I'm not saying that she isn't the crow... she can, by some way, shapeshifter into a crow (just for example) as the game says she is/was a powerful witch.

    What, you don't think a crow could be a witch? Just because it calls her a "witch", she has to be able to become a human?

    None of the other gods are seen to have the ability to shapeshift.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Orango19 on Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:48 am

    Shkar wrote:One is a living statue and the other lives in a painting. For all we know, and decently powerful wizard could create them. Heck, Seath made crystal golems.


    You have a big point. This is really an interesting idea.

    FellipeMariano wrote:Also, Velka's Talisman is a original tuff of Velka's Hair (as the description says), so, Velka really exist.

    Maybe she was just a regular witch. Ok, not so regular, but an awesome and strong as feck witch. But that doesn't prove she is a goddess.

    Shkar just created an awesome theory. Maybe a Velka did exist in the past, but her godhood and religion was created over time through exaggeration of people.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by FellipeMariano on Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:47 pm

    Maybe she was just a regular witch. Ok, not so regular, but an awesome and strong as feck witch. But that doesn't prove she is a goddess.

    Shkar just created an awesome theory. Maybe a Velka did exist in the past, but her godhood and religion was created over time through exaggeration of people.

    That was my whole point in the first page. In my opinion, she was a powerful witch, as the Vow of Silence says:

    "Secret rite of the black-haired witch Velka. Prevents casting of magic within effect area.
    Velka, the Goddess of Sin, is a rogue deity, but she is versed in arts both new and old, and is considered to have a great range of influence even as gods are concerned"


    Maybe she became so powerful to the point that people started to see her as a godess.

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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by samster628 on Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:35 pm

    YES that is what i think. the source of her power is her intelligence not her faith (like Gdolen). she appears to be an immensely powerful witch who has become a goddess. when you think about it Gwyn and co are really just humans who got S* loads of power from the ultimite lord soul.
    Velka does seem strongly linked to crows with her black hair and crowlike minions (i think they are minions not actual followers much like the snake men are seaths minions). remember there is reason people want to become dragons - they have much longer lifespans and powerful attributes whereas nobody wants to really be a crow-thing. The crow at the beginning i stand by is not velka but is a minion of her's. i cant see how a crow would be able to cast spells (like a witch) and it has a nest so if it were velka that would mean she has mated with an actual crow!. Not a nice thought. It is clearly more intelegent than an average crow though.

    oh and who down repped me? was it you (sorry i forgot your name) With a child, solaire and Seig in your picture


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Orango19 on Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:12 pm

    FellipeMariano wrote:That was my whole point in the first page. In my opinion, she was a powerful witch.

    Maybe she became so powerful to the point that people started to see her as a godess.

    I thought your point was that Velka is Gwyndollin. lol

    samster628 wrote:YES that is what i think. the source of her power is her intelligence not her faith (like Gdolen). she appears to be an immensely powerful witch who has become a goddess. when you think about it Gwyn and co are really just humans who got S* loads of power from the ultimite lord soul.
    Velka does seem strongly linked to crows with her black hair and crowlike minions (i think they are minions not actual followers much like the snake men are seaths minions). remember there is reason people want to become dragons - they have much longer lifespans and powerful attributes whereas nobody wants to really be a crow-thing. The crow at the beginning i stand by is not velka but is a minion of her's. i cant see how a crow would be able to cast spells (like a witch) and it has a nest so if it were velka that would mean she has mated with an actual crow!. Not a nice thought. It is clearly more intelegent than an average crow though.

    She mated with MAGIC. lol
    She is a goddess, maybe creating life, or at least small minions, is one of her powers; and she does so by laying eggs. lol

    Seriously, unless you think the Fair Lady mated with Giant Spider Dude and Seath mated with Mrs. Crystina Golem.

    oh and who down repped me? was it you (sorry i forgot your name) With a child, solaire and Seig in your picture

    That's Priscilla :'(
    And nah, I don't do this kind of stuff. I believe down reps are there for people picking fights or being a jerk. lol


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Shkar on Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:39 pm

    Actually, the point I had been trying to get across is that maybe Velka was just fabricated. A legend that someone made up that spun out of control until it was a whole religion.


    Everybody is sure that their religion is right, but not all religions are compatible. So, if some religions are fake, then they got started somehow. Who's to say the same thing couldn't happen in a video game.


    EDIT: Actually, better idea. Velka is a black-haired witch with incredible power who is reffered to as a God (and, commonly, is connected to the fire (see Acidic's theories)). What OTHER black haired witch associated with fire do we know of, that ISN'T specifically named?


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Orango19 on Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:57 pm

    You mean THE Witch? This is a bit too much, isn't it? lol


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Shkar on Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:20 pm

    Orango19 wrote:You mean THE Witch? This is a bit too much, isn't it? lol

    Oh, so they decided that they had to name Nito (who isn't even a "person"), but not the witch? They hid crazier stuff in the lore, if you care to speculate.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:24 pm

    Not sure if she has black hair but do you think it’s a coincidence that the only 2 times you see someone referred to as a “Rouge Witch” is Velka and Beatrice? >=o
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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by dianaduh on Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:42 am

    So I have a point relating Gwyndolin and Velka.

    It's interesting that in the artbook says that harpiers are followers of Velka. Harpiers are know from the Greek Mythology for being agents of punishment, that were cruel and tortured people. Why the goddess of sin punish peolpe? She was meant to forgive people. Punishment is the job of the followers of Gwyndolin.
    Also, some harpiers can drop the Souvenir of Reprisal, which says:

    "Blood-drained, shrunken ear. Souvenir taken from subduing the guilty.

    The knights called the Blades of the Darkmoon punish the
    guilty-soaked offenders of the Gods and take this as proof of their
    conquest. The earless corpses of the guilty will be left behind as a
    warning to others, inspiring both fear and respect for the Gods. Such is
    the eternal mandate of the Dark Sun."


    Just harpiers doing their jobs, but again, not for Velka, for Gwyndolin. Members of the DarkMoon covenant also get the Souvenir of Reprisal after a successful invasion, like if they're playing the harpiers.

    Who said that one person can only be high in intelligence or in faith? If Gwyndolin, son of a God, was really part of some of the Seath's experiments, he actually has high intelligence and faith.
    Velka and Gwyndolin could be the same person, or just partners.

    Harpier is also mentioned in a Shakespeare poem "The Three Witches Spell" in Macbeth.
    There were three witches in Macbeth as you can see(it's known that Velka is a witch), their role was to give prophecies to Macbeth and later create visions to Macbeth that show his downfall.
    You're taken to Lordran by a crow that many believe is Velka in another form, it's given you the quest of the chosen undead, as a prophecy would work.
    In Macbeth, the witches represent chaos, confusion, creating situations that evil is seen as good and good seen as evil(two ends confusion?). I see a possibility of Velka joining Gwyndolin to create chaos, creating all that image of pardoner but punishing people, the book would help in this case too.

    Book of the Guilty

    "The goddess of Sin, Velka, oversees this list of the guilty, who
    have disrespected the Gods or their covenants, and shall one day face
    the wrath of the Blades of the Darkmoon."

    Why would someone that forgives people keep names of sinners so they could be punished?
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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by samster628 on Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:33 am

    Velka appears to have the job of keeping track of sinners and allowing them to make peace with the gods. nothing more nothing less. Gdolen uses her record of sinners and sends out his agents to kill the entirely oh his own accord. the harpies work for velka too. beleve that they used to punish people for velka but after Gdolen took over they simply romed the painted world.

    also thank you orango19 for answering my questions and good point about the eggs. Maybe just maybe the crow could be velka. I woudn't say its proven yet though


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by dianaduh on Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:05 pm

    I don't see why someone that forgives people would keep a book with names of people who sinned. It's like they've never been actually forgived. "It's only human to sin." And worst, knowing that this list would be used for revenge by the DM.
    Oswald sells the indictment, which allows the player to put names of sinners in the book. "Stocking upon indictments? How honorable of you!". The way Oswald sounds so sarcastic about most of the things tells me they are aware of the destiny of those who have their names in the book.
    I see him clearly having fun about all these sins and indictments stuff.
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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by hageshisa on Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:23 pm

    There is one HUGE crow in the game, why would it be someone else but Velka?

    edit: "For each sin there is a punishment, and it is the task of Goddess Velka to defin the sin, and mete out the punishment" Second paragraph of the Karmic Justice info.

    Maybe she wasn't about forgiveness?

    I also believe that the "
    and shall one day face the wrath of the Blades of the Darkmoon"-part from the Book of guilt info can refer to that one day Gdolen finds the book and uses it for his own work... Hell! Here is a good theory for you!

    Maybe Gdolin is a pardoner of Velka? Sure he doesn't use her miracles nor the equipment pieces BUT they have sorcery in common ^^

    Aye, I was most serious about the karmic justice part thou.

    Edit 2:
    "but she is versed in arts both new and old"-part from Vow of Silence. I have not lurked much into the theories or much lore in general for Dark Souls, so I dont know if someone already got to this minor "conclusion".. But do you think that the old arts are intellegens and the new art faith? Or rather that old arts are Sorcery and new Miracels.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Shkar on Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:09 pm

    The only association of Velka with crows is that the crow demons in the PW are said to be her minions.However, we know for a fact that she is a "black-haired witch", which almost perfectly fits the description for a certain witch that isn't named. And really, what "old arts" are mentioned in game aside from the Lost Flame Sorceries?


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:48 pm

    Hello! Interesting discussion...

    First, From originally intended for a Velka covenant to exist (centered around punishing sin), but this idea was scrapped because the Blade of the Darkmoon covenant (centered around protecting Gwyndolin and punishing people that had thrown Anor Londo into darkness) was similar in practice. They were sort of merged into one and this is why the Darkmoon covenant punishes sin. That "ring of condemnation" is a cut item that is still in the code, a relic from that cancelled covenant.

    I wonder if there is any link between Witch Beatrice and Velka, since Beatrice is also described as "rogue", her catalyst has two black feathers (maybe raven feathers?) and the artbook image of her shows in special detail a section of her outfit that also looks like it has black feathers: http://i.imgur.com/alpXZ.jpg

    And really, what "old arts" are mentioned in game aside from the Lost Flame Sorceries?

    Beatrice's Catalyst description:


    "Catalyst belonging to Beatrice,
    the rogue witch. Contrasts with Vinheim catalysts. This ancient catalyst
    shows signs of being used for age-old sorceries.
    It has passed the
    hands of many generations to get here."
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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Shkar on Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:04 pm

    Actually, I wonder if Beatrice didn't come from Izalith and her "native" time is back during the time of Oolacile and Izalith. Because seriously, the only three witches we know of are Beatrice, Velka, and THE witch, and all are mentioned in regards to "old arts". At least one of those is a reference to the lost fire sorceries.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by CaligoIllioneus on Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:21 pm

    Yes, but witches from Izalith used Izalith Catalysts, and Beatrice uses her Beatrice's Catalyst, whose description says that it was passed down through many generations, this means that she was from a long lineage of sorcerers/witches. Her "old arts" may have been whatever spells enabled her to Abysswalk (and check the concept art, where some black energy emanates from her catalyst)
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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Shkar on Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:10 am

    CaligoIllioneus wrote:Yes, but witches from Izalith used Izalith Catalysts, and Beatrice uses her Beatrice's Catalyst, whose description says that it was passed down through many generations, this means that she was from a long lineage of sorcerers/witches. Her "old arts" may have been whatever spells enabled her to Abysswalk (and check the concept art, where some black energy emanates from her catalyst)

    Cut content is cut content. We either use it as evidence for everything, or nothing, and nobody takes the cut content of Andre being the firstborn as proof that he still is.

    Perhaps I was wrong about her being from the past though. Maybe she is from our time, but is a descendent of the residents of Izalith. After all, witches are often seen as living in swamps like, oh, Blighttown?


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:26 pm

    Uggg so yeah I totally spaced out and posted this comment in another thread (just realized it) when I intended to put it here…. If you read this in the thread “Wild *** Theories” I’m sorry for the double post, and Sam has already gave me some feedback. Any who, for anybody reading this for the first time it is just my speculation and thanks for reading…


    Until I’m convinced otherwise, I’ll continue to believe that Velka is connected to Gwydolin by being his mother. I know there isn’t really much information supporting this; however, it just makes the most sense to me (notice I said to me if you believe something else I’m not saying you’re wrong). Why else would Gywn have a child that has an affinity to the moon, and why do we hear nothing about his wife or mother of his children?

    Some see her as a goddess and others call her a rouge witch (sounds like slander to me). So what did she do to deserve such slander? If she’s the goddess of sin punishment… then it’s not too hard to believe she eventually saw Gwyn “sin”… and I think it’s a misconception that she would pardon anyone, that’s Oswald’s thing. As in, the way she would absolve your sin would be to punish you, while Oswald lets you pay him souls aka abusing the system to supply himself with souls. So she was removed (called rouge/rejected) from Anor Londo either by death (making the crow her follower similar to Artorias/Sif) or banishment (to the painted world) or she escaped (shape shifted into the crow?).

    If she escaped and changed into the crow then it explains why the crow picks you up and drops you off in Lordran. If this is true I also believe she dropped the Peculiar doll into your cell (hole in the roof, the crow could drop it right in) so that you could find her “tools of punishment”. This would also explain why there are black knights in the Undead Asylum when you return, they’ve been hunting Velka for a while? Furthermore, if this is true I believe it is Velka speaking during the intro and when the crow is picking you up. She would be propagating the legend of the chosen undead so that you would deliver her “punishment” to all those that have sinned. Meaning she doesn’t care one way or another if it’s the age of fire that continues or the age of dark. Also, she would pick up any undead if they could make it to that cliff, the more people she brings the more punishment she can spread, and she doesn’t have to worry if one fails she can just keep supplying undead.

    Either way, I think Gywdolin resents his father for the treatment he has received and uses the darkmoons to pay tribute to his mother (maybe he thinks she’s dead or she really is dead). The fact that the Darkmoon Tin scales off of Faith and Velka’s Tailsman Scales off of INT I think farther proves she’s his mother. What other items in the game use other stats to boost different spell sets? He casts spells that seem as if they normal sorceries; however, he is his father’s son and his high Faith powers instead of INT; in addition, he’s able to change what skill set he uses to cast Miracles and Sorceries just like his mother.. In all honesty though it’s all just speculation and hard to wrap your head around sometimes. Feel free to poke holes into this or let me know what you think, thanks for your time! and

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