Velka, Goddess of Sin

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    Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by menzinho on Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:22 pm

    Ok, so i play DS a lot, and one of the things i most bang my head on the wall is about this gal, Velka, what, when, where and why? I'll post my SPECULATION here and present facts that suport them, BUT KNOW THIS IS SPECULATION (right Shkar) so take it as you will

    What is Velka? She is a goddess, more specifically, goddess of sin, not the commitment of sin, the punishing and pardoning of all sins (commited by anyone, god or mortal) now i'd take Velka is not the kind of crazy religious punisher from hell, she seems kind enough to pardon all kinds of crime... for a price, and hell what a salty price (except heinously horrible ones, such as murdering another god)

    She was part of Gwyn's pantheon of known gods (sharing the table with Flann, Gwynevere, Fina, the Blacksmith Deity and the Firstborn, Nito was not part of the Pantheon but its fair to assume he is a god of death) and it's very fair to assume they feared and respected her, mostly over her vast power, since all sin is her domain (see Oswald dialogue) mostly the gods felt a bit uneasy around her

    After the incident with the demons, the linking of the flame and the firstborn taking over his father domain, it is unknown of her actions during this period, and since there is no concrete and solid in-game evidence that the Dark Ember is her creation, aside from it's location, we can't say it was created by her (i'll make a post on TPWA later on and clear this out)

    So then hell broke loose and the Firstborn was stripped of his powers and removed from the annals (either betrayed, or by doing something stupid doesn't matter) and we are left with very few reasons for that to happen,(SPECULATION PART, NOT BACKED BY SOLID EVIDENCE, ONLY BY CONVENIENCE AND PUTTING 2 AND 2 TOGETHER) for me it was a plot mastered by Gwyndolin, who, jealous of his brother praise by his father, crafted a way to cast him down and be the ruler himself (hence the link the fire ending) but which reason he used to convince the others in the Pantheon to go with him? I say the Firstborn was not happy with the harvesting of the humans, and thus tried to change that, and Gwynny used that to frame him as a betrayer, and thus, we know what happen

    And where does Velka fit in that? let me ask, don't you guys think that halting the course of nature by crazy means and instructing his peers to harvest the humanity of the humans (see Kaathe dialogue) to keep the fire up, prolonging the power of his people for another thousand year, never allowing nature to run it's flow is a sin? because for me it is, and a hell of a big one, and Velka was not happy at all by this, even though she was a goddess herself, she would never fade, since she was needed by humans, and even if all other gods were cast down, she would still be needed, to punish the wicked, so she too sided with the humans along with the Firstborn, and before his fate could befall her, she fled, to somewhere unknown (maybe Carim? Would explain many of her followers being from there, and maybe she was not alone? maybe Fina tagged along, but i digress)

    something i found out to be really interesting about her, snugly, the invisible merchant, will exchange a sunlight medal for a white titanite chunk, which is used to reinforce Occult weaponry, so if Occult is really a creation of Velka, to punish gods, then this a great link between her and the Firstborn

    so to finish, i say the huge crow that snatches the CU and brings him to Lordran is either her herself or one of her servants, and that she spread the Chosen Undead thing to try and find a way to set nature back into it's course and let the age of Dark be Unleashed (even though her plan can backfire, with the CU choosing to maintain the age of fire)

    I won't go deeper into other speculations, like Priscilla being her probable daughter or not, since i did not delved enough into the Priscilla matter, mainly this is all i got, i hope you enjoy, and Shkar, stay away from my posts...


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by OrnsteinBro on Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:52 pm

    Wait, blacksmith diety? Dark Souls has one? o.o


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by RedderAI on Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:34 pm

    I really like your post and it does make sense to me in some aspects, not to sure of she fled. I feel like she's there somewhere not in the game. Of course no solid evidence on my half but that's what this lore in my eyes mainly is. It's fascinating. I'm actually working on a speculation thread soon. Anyways i like your post. Makes me want to research other gods of sins in irl.

    @OrnsteinBro it's believed that Sen of Sen's Fortress is the blacksmith deity. My belief is that Sen is the head honcho of Blacksmiths and constructed the fortress alongside the other petrified smiths. I also believe he was part of the race of giants in the fortress. Purely speculation but it seems plausible that all the best blacksmiths constructed a proving ground for Anor Londo. Seems legit to me.
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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by menzinho on Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:27 pm

    for me Sen is a thousand XD, as in a thousand traps, but makes sense that the BSD whould be named Sen, and built that fortress as a request of Gwyn (or his son) to prove one's worth, and dude, lets make our own lore club to research our theories would be aaaaawesome XD


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by RedderAI on Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:06 pm

    menzinho wrote:for me Sen is a thousand XD, as in a thousand traps, but makes sense that the BSD whould be named Sen, and built that fortress as a request of Gwyn (or his son) to prove one's worth, and dude, lets make our own lore club to research our theories would be aaaaawesome XD

    The name of the area would prove that wrong since it shows possession, "Sen's" Fortress. At least I think so. Grammar was never my strong suit.

    Also the lore thread would be awesome! PM me if you'd like. ^_^
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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by samster628 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:05 pm

    Yep i agree with you folks about sens forteress. It could also explain the large concentration of titanite deamons there.
    Velka is indeed a strange diety. i'm not even certain she is part of Gwyns panthegon but as i have already said countless times i am not going to involve myself in too much speculation about her until some of the maybe's about her are confirmed.
    Painted World: Ariamis created this world probrably for velka unless she later commondeered it. It seems to be something to do with velka due to the precence of her miricles there. me and menzinho have already debated that it may be a prison for exiles or a forteress for them. After that it now seems most likly to me that it was a prison for exiles Guarded by those crow cretures (who are linked to velka by her talisman) but when (and if) she went rogue the inmates were freed to become a force against the gods.
    I think the crow at the start is an agent of velka or maybe her herself.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by menzinho on Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:45 pm

    then gimme a high five man, the veil of fog is dismantling before us as we uncover the mysteries of Dark Souls!!! hell ya


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by samster628 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:31 am

    *high five*

    Hmm i just came here via the wiki and it seems someone has created a page for a ring of condemnation. i looked at the page and it claims the ring is given for joining a covenant with velka. if she has a covenant it must be on PtD and would likely reveal clues in our search. can someone please find out if this ring actually exists or if it is just some troll. i have to say i don't recognize the image. I'd do it myself but we still have to wait for our extra content.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:37 am

    Why do people assume the gods went to CARIM of all places?!


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by samster628 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:39 am

    i think it says on some item description


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by vatar5 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:41 am

    I don't agree...
    The Darkmoon blades(lead by Gwindolyn) USES Velka's book to invade sinners so that means that either Velka is alive somewhere and cooperate with Gwyndolin OR Gwyndolin somehow took Velka's power.
    About the last one,note that you can find reprisal's memory and a Velka rapier in the Painted World of Ariamis...why?

    Did Velka created the Dark Ember so she could control/punish the sins of the Gods?Or was she considered as "dangerous" and sent to the painted world?Then who is Oswald de Carim if he is a disciple of Velka,is Velka actually in Carim and cooperated with Pricilla for the Dark Ember?

    I believe there's an connection between Velka,the painted world of Ariamis and the Dark Ember.

    Also note that it is the harpies(looking like crow) that drop the reprisal item...crow=Velka?


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Peaceful Wollyhop on Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:19 am

    The harpies are followers of Velka so it's safe to assume that crows have something to do with her image/appearance, either that or something about her personality resembles a crow, but I don't know of anything that would support that so the first.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by FellipeMariano on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:27 pm

    Well, some descriptions give margin to say that Velka was not a real God, neither from the Gwyn Pantheon or other areas.

    Vow of Silence

    "Secret rite of the black-haired witch Velka. Prevents casting of magic within effect area.
    Velka, the Goddess of Sin, is a rogue deity, but she is versed in arts both new and old, and is considered to have a great range of influence even as gods are concerned."


    So, we can assume that Velka was a witch that got too much power that even the Gods got concerned about it. The description specifies her as a "rogue deity", so she was not part of Gwyn's Pantheon.

    Velka's Talisman

    "Medium for casting miracles of the Gods.
    This black tuft of hair that serves as a talisman belongs to Velka, Goddess of Sin. It casts miracles not by drawing upon faith, but intelligence."


    So, the tuff of Velka's Hair allows one to cast miracles by drawing intelligence istead of faith. This maybe is a evidence that Velka was not a God indead (because there's no faith involving her cult and powers) and instead, she was a powerful Witch.

    MY theory is that Velka is, in fact, Gwyndolin...

    Gwyndolin was raised as a girl, has black hair, is very skilled with arcane arts, collects the ears of the sinners, command the Darkmoon Blades (who somewhat are linked to the Velka's Guilty Book). His father (Gwyn) probably doesn't know that Velka was his son, probably because Gwyndolin leads the Darkmoon clan in secrecy... making the only thing to be know about it only rumors.

    But, the two theories I present are opposite, so only one are true (if there's a merely chance of any of it to be true).


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Christoph on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:52 pm

    FellipeMariano wrote:Well, some descriptions give margin to say that Velka was not a real God, neither from the Gwyn Pantheon or other areas.

    Vow of Silence

    "Secret rite of the black-haired witch Velka. Prevents casting of magic within effect area.
    Velka, the Goddess of Sin, is a rogue deity, but she is versed in arts both new and old, and is considered to have a great range of influence even as gods are concerned."


    So, we can assume that Velka was a witch that got too much power that even the Gods got concerned about it. The description specifies her as a "rogue deity", so she was not part of Gwyn's Pantheon.

    Velka's Talisman

    "Medium for casting miracles of the Gods.
    This black tuft of hair that serves as a talisman belongs to Velka, Goddess of Sin. It casts miracles not by drawing upon faith, but intelligence."


    So, the tuff of Velka's Hair allows one to cast miracles by drawing intelligence istead of faith. This maybe is a evidence that Velka was not a God indead (because there's no faith involving her cult and powers) and instead, she was a powerful Witch.

    MY theory is that Velka is, in fact, Gwyndolin...

    Gwyndolin was raised as a girl, has black hair, is very skilled with arcane arts, collects the ears of the sinners, command the Darkmoon Blades (who somewhat are linked to the Velka's Guilty Book). His father (Gwyn) probably doesn't know that Velka was his son, probably because Gwyndolin leads the Darkmoon clan in secrecy... making the only thing to be know about it only rumors.

    But, the two theories I present are opposite, so only one are true (if there's a merely chance of any of it to be true).

    The first theory is very interesting because the items say that she is a witch and that she uses intelligence instead of faith. The second oneon the other hand has no real evidence and since Velka only uses inelligence and Gwyndolin only uses faith (look at Velka's Talisman and Darkmoon Cata)... I guess Velka uses Gwyndolin as a tool since she had lots of influence and Gwyndolin uses her book...


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by samster628 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:10 pm

    FellipeMariano wrote:Well, some descriptions give margin to say that Velka was not a real God, neither from the Gwyn Pantheon or other areas.

    Vow of Silence

    "Secret rite of the black-haired witch Velka. Prevents casting of magic within effect area.
    Velka, the Goddess of Sin, is a rogue deity, but she is versed in arts both new and old, and is considered to have a great range of influence even as gods are concerned."


    So, we can assume that Velka was a witch that got too much power that even the Gods got concerned about it. The description specifies her as a "rogue deity", so she was not part of Gwyn's Pantheon.

    Velka's Talisman

    "Medium for casting miracles of the Gods.
    This black tuft of hair that serves as a talisman belongs to Velka, Goddess of Sin. It casts miracles not by drawing upon faith, but intelligence."


    So, the tuff of Velka's Hair allows one to cast miracles by drawing intelligence istead of faith. This maybe is a evidence that Velka was not a God indead (because there's no faith involving her cult and powers) and instead, she was a powerful Witch.
    ignoring your theory about Gdolen being Velka (which in my opinion is balderdash no offence) you have gathered some good evidence. From the descriptions it seems very likly that velka is indeed not a part of Gwyns panthegon. likley she is a witch so powerful as to have become a goddess. Remember Gwyn himself was a nobody until he gained his power from the flame. If the gods don't accept velka as a god then this explains gwyndolen. being there to fill what they feel is a gap. Velka might even be primordial (but i doubt that). Possibly too she is related to witch beatrice. SO MANY MYSTERIES.

    About the ring of condemnation (which i am fairly miffed no one has noticed my post on) it appears to be an item in the games code but that cant actually be acquired by normal means on its updated page in the wiki. this would show there was to be a covenant to velka but it was cut. *sigh* another great idea that didn't make it to the final game.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Peaceful Wollyhop on Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:47 pm

    I find it interesting that Gwyndolin's catalyst and Velka's talisman both use the opposite stat to scale in. Possible a connection but I really doubt Velka is Gwyndolin. The talisman indicates that Velka sorta revovles around the intelligence stat, and her talsisman allows her to cast miracles without using faith - which Gwyndolin is one with. The same can be said about Gwyndolin and his catalyst just the opposite way round. If they were the same person it would mean they were high in intelligence and faith and it seems you're either one or the other.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by menzinho on Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:48 pm

    Since we don't see, use, and the item description of the ring of condemnation don't say anything we don't already know, we should not be too excited about it, however it was a hell of a good finding, this proves there was a plan for a covenant with Velka, but who would be the leader then?, Oswald maybe?

    Also i see, Velka was not always a goddess, she once was a witch, or she never abandoned her ways? perhaps there is something between her and Beatrice

    Also only you don't be sad for few people throwing your idea that Gwynny is Velka without in-game proof, fellipe, look closely, and you'll see he has silver hair, it is very well stated that Velka had black hair


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by samster628 on Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:32 am

    Thank goodness i HATED that transvestite *past tense* and i am glad it has

    been proven to not to be velka.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by vatar5 on Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:35 am

    Well Gwyn was forced to be a girl,poor bro.
    Plus it's kinda obvious that she isn't a girl,she doesn't have giant tits.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Orango19 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:21 am

    Let me bring some light to your research, younglings.

    In the japanese version of the game; the character creation (and item descriptions if I remember correctly) name the jetblack hair color as Raven - Black (something like that).

    In the Dark Souls Artbook, the harpies are said to be followers of Velka, working for her. Like a more crazy section of the Velkish "Religion". lol

    It's important to note, that Oswald, as the Bishop of Velka; have some power over sins himself. He probably went to Lordran to make some easy money (cough cough souls) out of his close connection with Velka. The goddess herself is not mentioned to pardon or punish anyone.

    Gwyndollin probably just use Velka's book to find those that sinned against the gods or that put his plans of Linking the Fire into risk (killing other healthy humans).

    Velka alongside the Mimic God are what I call TRUE deities. They were probably worshipped way before Gwyn and party found the First Flame. Gwyn and family were only considered gods after the first First Flame Fading event; after Gwyn sacrificed himself he instructed his children to SHEPHERD the humans; probably making them believe that Gwyndudes are gods; creating a church, the concept of Faith (explaining how Velka's Miracles are done with Int) and talking bad about the Ancient Gods (just like the Catholic Church made the Egypt / Roman and Greek / Arab gods be considered demons over the time; or if you prefer, rogue deities).

    With those infos; and the knowledge that the Ancient Gods not always resemble humanoids (I myself believe the blacksmith god is one of them; that's why his name was lost to time - he probably created the Embers, btw); it's safe to assume that the Giant Crow is in fact Velka herself. That's how a common animal would be smart enough to know that you needed to go to Lordran.

    Velka and her followers are always seen near prisons of some sort. The Undead Asylum was probably a prison way before Gwyn (or his church) turned it into an Undead Prison and created the Undead Prophecy ********. That's why you find her near the Asylum.

    The Painted World is considered to be the Prison of the gods' (the Gwyn-ones) enemies; that's why it's full of Undead, has the Occult Ember, and a Dragon Crossbreed (GRATUITOUS ORANGO WILD GUESS: Priscilla is daughter to the Firstborn, after he got desperate in a war against the immortal-undead-humans during the first Flame Fading event; he probably tried to make some alliance with the remaining dragons.) This explains why this "prison" is overlooked by some of Velka's followers.

    Oswald from CARIM if overlooking Lautrec from CARIM prison; while making some easy money, erasing people's names from the book of sins (not really pardoning them).

    And now, the most complicated idea... Velka also stays in the Firelink Shrine, because it is the Prison of Gwyn. Before release, the way to the Kiln had little to do with filling the Lordvessel to magically open a door; and more with Giant Firstborn Andre pushing a big rock statue; as if it was a Big Prison Door; to prevent the Burned-to-Madness-Gwyn to get out and do ****.

    She is the crow, yeah. The Raven-Black thing from the Japanese version is enough to back this theory.

    EDIT
    OH **** How could I forget Anastacia? It gives a less crazy explanation to a Firelink Prison.
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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Shkar on Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:08 am

    Orango19 wrote:Let me bring some light to your research, younglings.

    In the japanese version of the game; the character creation (and item descriptions if I remember correctly) name the jetblack hair color as Raven - Black (something like that).

    In the Dark Souls Artbook, the harpies are said to be followers of Velka, working for her. Like a more crazy section of the Velkish "Religion". lol

    It's important to note, that Oswald, as the Bishop of Velka; have some power over sins himself. He probably went to Lordran to make some easy money (cough cough souls) out of his close connection with Velka. The goddess herself is not mentioned to pardon or punish anyone.

    Gwyndollin probably just use Velka's book to find those that sinned against the gods or that put his plans of Linking the Fire into risk (killing other healthy humans).

    Velka alongside the Mimic God are what I call TRUE deities. They were probably worshipped way before Gwyn and party found the First Flame. Gwyn and family were only considered gods after the first First Flame Fading event; after Gwyn sacrificed himself he instructed his children to SHEPHERD the humans; probably making them believe that Gwyndudes are gods; creating a church, the concept of Faith (explaining how Velka's Miracles are done with Int) and talking bad about the Ancient Gods (just like the Catholic Church made the Egypt / Roman and Greek / Arab gods be considered demons over the time; or if you prefer, rogue deities).

    With those infos; and the knowledge that the Ancient Gods not always resemble humanoids (I myself believe the blacksmith god is one of them; that's why his name was lost to time - he probably created the Embers, btw); it's safe to assume that the Giant Crow is in fact Velka herself. That's how a common animal would be smart enough to know that you needed to go to Lordran.

    Velka and her followers are always seen near prisons of some sort. The Undead Asylum was probably a prison way before Gwyn (or his church) turned it into an Undead Prison and created the Undead Prophecy ********. That's why you find her near the Asylum.

    The Painted World is considered to be the Prison of the gods' (the Gwyn-ones) enemies; that's why it's full of Undead, has the Occult Ember, and a Dragon Crossbreed (GRATUITOUS ORANGO WILD GUESS: Priscilla is daughter to the Firstborn, after he got desperate in a war against the immortal-undead-humans during the first Flame Fading event; he probably tried to make some alliance with the remaining dragons.) This explains why this "prison" is overlooked by some of Velka's followers.

    Oswald from CARIM if overlooking Lautrec from CARIM prison; while making some easy money, erasing people's names from the book of sins (not really pardoning them).

    And now, the most complicated idea... Velka also stays in the Firelink Shrine, because it is the Prison of Gwyn. Before release, the way to the Kiln had little to do with filling the Lordvessel to magically open a door; and more with Giant Firstborn Andre pushing a big rock statue; as if it was a Big Prison Door; to prevent the Burned-to-Madness-Gwyn to get out and do ****.

    She is the crow, yeah. The Raven-Black thing from the Japanese version is enough to back this theory.

    EDIT
    OH **** How could I forget Anastacia? It gives a less crazy explanation to a Firelink Prison.

    I'll admit, I started off thinking your post looked kind of sketchy, but you pulled it out. Nicely done.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by samster628 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:02 pm

    If i were a godess i would not waste my life sitting around to ferry the chosen undead, also i would like to make it clear that i completly disregard your theory in a different post about there being wars etc before the fire HOWEVER gwyns panthegon (as you rightfully said) did claim their power from his soul after he claimed it from the flame. Gwyn appears to have given it to his family (daughter, son's, uncle) but velka and the blacksmith diety and the advarice gods seem different to gwyns panthegon (and are considered a bit rogue). this supports the idea that there were some gods before the flame including velka, the advarice god and possibly the blacksmith diety. i agree with you on that.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Orango19 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:51 pm

    Well, if it wasn't for Velka (considering my theory to be true) you would be stuck in the Undead Asylum, unable to do all the world changing stuff that you do during the gameplay. So just ferrying the Chosen Undead was enough to end an Age and start another.

    She knows how to play right, with only one move, she ended the Gwyn dynasty and changed the world. Talk about divine knowledge.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Shkar on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:21 pm

    Hm...

    I wonder if I could come up with a evidence to support the random thought I just had, which is the possibility that Velka, the blacksmith God and etc never actually existed and are just legends.


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

    Post by Orango19 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:22 pm

    Shkar wrote:Hm...

    I wonder if I could come up with a evidence to support the random thought I just had, which is the possibility that Velka, the blacksmith God and etc never actually existed and are just legends.

    Kinda hard to do so; I originaly used to think like that.
    But there are way too many evidences of their existence. Living evidences.

    The harpies are Velka acolytes / servants; and 'probably' just like the Dragon Covenant, the Velka servants try to look more like her (being half crows).

    We have the titanite Demons which are technically the offsprings of the Blacksmith God.

    And for last, the Mimics, which are to say the least, little copies of the God of Avarice.

    The God of Avarice can be ditched as simply a legend; but the BG and Velka being only legends would raise the question of where the TDemons and the Harpies came from?


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    Re: Velka, Goddess of Sin

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