Is there still Honor among us?

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    Frostacar
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    Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by Frostacar on Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:57 am

    One of my good friends recently moved away to go to college in a city outside of mine and found a guy who is probably as equally obsessed as me about Dark Souls (From what my friends say...) but he recently came to town with his Dark Souls College buddy and we talked about a lot of things including PVP.

    From there I talked about all the Honor duels I had and he started to scoff and go off on how there is no Honor in Dark Souls what. so. ever.

    It kind of threw me off guard cause I've had a ton of Good duels where both participants respect each others play, Bowed, No heals, just straight up who could kill who first. Of course I've had way more PVP matches where there is none of that and there is clearly the 'I'm going to win no matter what it takes or how cheap I am' Mentality and I understand that too.

    I guess what got me off on him was the fact that he believed it was just a whole elitist game and he talked about it as an elitist and all the weapons, stats and armor he uses, But my whole thing was I believe in PVP It's more about the fight then the win and how we can each outdo each other in tactics and just quick thinking.

    Anyway, The guy has PS3 and I have Xbox so we can't really settle our dispute through a match (Or what he would consider a 'Match') but I wanted to know what you guys think? Do you guys most of you still believe in honorable fights that are more for the fight then the win or are some of you more for the win then the fight and consider the spoils and winning the most important.

    There is no right answer to this really, You can play the game however you want, I respect most people on PVP no matter how they play cause they can I just wanted to open up discussion on whether or not Honor exists at all.

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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by RedderAI on Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:10 am

    I used to bow all the time but people are dill holes and they *** me over. So I don't bow anymore and immeadietly ready an arrow to be careful. I don't heal or BS and am purely a dex character so I need to damage the person many times to kill them And when people can two shot me with a Great or Ultra weapons when buffed so I only do it for preventive measure. It may be considered cheap to ready an arrow before the duel begins but it keeps people back and if they buff with SLB or DMB I of course do 200+ with the arrow but compared to what that buff can do To me it seems like a good trade off.

    Anyways I appreciate being honorable by Boeing but I can't bow anymore due to people abusing that moment of respite.
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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:13 am

    It exists. You adhere to an honor code, this guy doesn't. He plays his way you play your way.

    There are a lot of people who play like your friend and a lot who play the game like you. So, yes, honor exists. It just doesn't exist everywhere.

    Probably not the answer you were looking for, but it's about as good as I can do. Bow

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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:14 am

    I like to think so. We have a whole forum of us here. But, "honor" is so subjective that you'll never get a consensus among the entire community.


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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by Ghadis_God on Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:19 am

    I care more about the fight than the win, it's not real life and winning proves very little. But the very idea of fighting with honor is rare in games, so I make the most of it and try to fight honorably when I can. It's not like I don't care about winning at all; if the opponent stars doing things like healing or chainstabbing, I'm not going to take it lying down and will be cheap in reciprocal. I'm just not some insecure pathetic bastard who needs to win at any cost and taunt his opponent afterward to try and convince himself he's good at the game.


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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by Frostacar on Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:29 am

    reim0027 wrote:I like to think so. We have a whole forum of us here. But, "honor" is so subjective that you'll never get a consensus among the entire community.


    Your right on that Honor is very subjective, Maybe the better question for everybody Is your Dark souls PVP more for the Fight or the Win.

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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:38 am

    When I'm invading, I fight to win. But, I also try to mirror my opponent's fighting code.

    When I'm dueling, I fight to win and learn. I stick with the accepted convention (adapt it based on my opponent). But, getting to the win is just as important (and even getting to the loss is too).


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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by Hellion7776 on Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:53 am

    I have found it is all in who invades. I see RED, I know they wont bow, wont be honorable and don't play by the rules...
    This has been VERY consistent. I still give them a wide berth to allow a show of honor... but even if they bow, it has usually ended with healing multiple times and hiding behind baddies and shooting and/or using taunts.
    Just my observances.


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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by AzureCrow on Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:17 am

    What level are you at Redder and Hellion? I had the same mentality up to my 80s, it seems resources are scarce and more players are focused on clearing levels but once you pass the 100 mark more people seem to have come into their own pvp style and less desperate to stay alive. Even invasions feel more calm and strategic since players appreciate the change in pace. I guess what I'm saying is honor is learned as is the ability to tell an earnest bow from from an enemy who needs to be reminded the consequences of gesture rushing Shrug
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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:18 am

    There is a difference in mentality between invasions and duels. If I were invading you, the main thing I would be worrying about is how many of you there are, and where they are. It can be hard to convince an invader that you are playing with honor.

    Plus, it is a two-way street. As an invader, I'm accustomed to people ganging up on me, BS fishing, BS chaining, etc. And, I expect it. If any of your phantoms didn't do anything they could to kill me, I would think they have no honor.


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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by dianaduh on Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:37 am

    There is honor. But it's relative to everyone.
    I think most of the "dishonorable" players are kinda new to the game or have been corrupted. For an exemple, I bet most of us when first got invaded fished backstabs and/or healed, so they kinda still want to use the advantage they have (estus) to beat the other, although there are items that can heal too.
    But it doesn't have to be this way, some people don't even know what they are doing. These days I invaded a guy who kept healing and it was a pain to finally beat him. I messaged him saying "the chosen undead must not heal at duels" and he just answered "sorry the chosen undead did not know", and stopped doing it.

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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by RedderAI on Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:59 am

    SL 136.

    I got drunk and thought it woul be smart and use at least a couple million souls to level up from my SL 120 build.
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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by n0rain on Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:04 am

    OP I share a similar sentiment. I honestly feel like the honor bound gamer is dying and giving way to the elitist playstyle.
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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by AzureCrow on Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:02 am

    I always default to upper undead burg for pvp over 120 it seems to be more of an understood duel ground whereas I've had the worst ganking of my play career in the kiln nothing like spawning into a pair of full dragons with greatbows lol!
    I always do a double backflip before bowing, most hosts and even invaders will simply wait and bow again, if your getting a bad lot then log out and back in it puts you into a new server group and I find good players seem to attract each other.
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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by vageta31 on Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:39 am

    The only problem I have with honor is that those that look down upon others they feel have no honor, are just as bad themselves. My consensus is that so long as you aren't actually cheating via hacks or trainers, that everything is fair game. I have no right to look down upon someone else's playstyle while putting mine on a pedestal, as that would truly make me an elitist.


    True honor is about fighting the way you want, and not caring or expecting others to do the same. If you have a personal honor code and end up breaking it due to your opponent, then in reality you are the one that lacks honor. If your code is anything goes and you adhere to it, then in my eyes at least you aren't trying to fool anyone. You fight dirty, are ok with it and don't care what anyone else thinks. That in itself is sort of honorable in my eyes as it shows a different strength of character.


    Personally I just fight how I want without any semblance of code. I tend to not try and backstab or use certain tactics at first, but if my opponent does then I'm all for it. I tend to enjoy dirty fights over duels as they're more fun to me. The game itself is a huge world of dangerous areas and full of items and tactics to exploit. Why limit yourself to fighting in some safe neutral area with a set of rules that no one can even agree on when you have the entire world as your playground?


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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by xSomax on Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:00 am

    i'm rather new, so my opinion may not mean as much, but i have a pretty lax way of thinking about honor. as long as the guy allows me to finish what i'm doing, probably killing some small dude, and heal up, as well as bow, then i could give a crap less what he does? chain backstab? fine. WoTG spamming? me too! all i ask for is a fair fight. whatever tactics are used is completely up to them. a good example was when i was in anor londo, fighting a silver knight. the person who invaded saw me, allowed me to kill the knight and heal, then proceeded to attack. he completely destroyed me with a backstab and fire-surge spam, but i was fine with it cuz he allowed for a fair fight.

    honor is a relative term, but i think most of us confuse honor with a fair fight. admittedly though, the 2 are similar in many situations.


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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by Seignar on Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:59 am

    Only things I ever ask about my opponent is that they let me bow and they acknowledge a 1-on-1 fight. That is all my honor. A fair fight is the added restriction of no Estus healing. Everything else is fair game.

    This includes healing via humanity, WoG with TWoP and other things, but these techniques are more like soft-banned

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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by Lickingodliness on Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:49 am

    I personally follow these rules, Bow, no heals, do not involve AI enemies, and no 2v1 or 3v1.

    If someone invades me and uses what I would consider not so honorable tactics, all bets are off.
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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by Purity on Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:28 am

    When I evade, I let the host kill whatever he is fighting, I just stay there watching, keeping my distance, once he's done, I bow.



    But as someone said in this tread, new players arent really human to duel, they're probably using their valuable humanity to summon help for this dreaded boss fight, and you're there to screw them. So it's understandable they summon white phantoms or try to run from you and use estus to try to survive, so they keep their human form.

    On the same boat, are persons who are new to invading, and just want to f*** things up.. I remember hiding below the stairs on undead burg on my second invasion to ambush the host.. and I would have continued doing so, if I hadn't noticed people bowing, I would've continued doing so, because I honestly thought that that was what invasions were about.

    To be honest, it's fun for me both ways. If someone is waiting for me, I bow, if they're trying to run away and survive, I try to kill them and torment them.

    On the other hand, when I'm invaded, I expect everything, I wait in and open area, and bow when the opponent is far away.



    I like getting a bow as a recognition of a fair fight, but when I don't it's game on, equally fun!
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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by KiDisaster on Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:11 pm

    I'm pretty new to the game, only started playing maybe a week and a half or two weeks ago. I like the attitude that a lot of you have to PVP, and I wish I saw it reflected in game. Honestly I'm not all that interested in PVP myself, but I play while connected to the internet for the messages and occasional co-op. Also bloodstains can be amusing sometimes. And with that comes being invaded of course.

    Every time I get invaded there is no "honor" to speak of. It's always some dude who rushes over while I'm in the middle of fighting some enemy and backstabs me or something. Early game it was even worse, there were at least two or three times prior to fighting the Bell Gargoyles that I was invaded by guys with ridiculous gear that I stood no chance against. Lightning zweihanders, Black iron armor and stuff like that. I don't know how they had that stuff at such a low level (Or can you invade people at a much lower level than you? I'm not sure.) but I know my attacks did next to no damage and they could kill me in 1 or 2 hits. And all these guys then have the nerve to point down as if to say "Oh look I managed to beat you with vastly superior gear/while you were preoccupied with a silver knight or something. Man I'm so much better than you."

    I get that these guys are probably just griefers and getting worked up over it is exactly what they want, but in a game where I can actually lose significant amounts of progress from being griefed, it's hard not to.

    If I were doing set up duels or something like that I'd be all for honorable fights, and when I eventually start messing with PVP I hope to duel people like you guys as it seems to me like that's the way to do it. But if a red phantom comes into my game I'm going to do whatever it takes to survive and hold onto my souls, if that means being "cheap" then so be it. If they don't like it, that's their problem. They're the ones coming into my game uninvited.

    That sounded more hostile than I meant it to silly
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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by mugenis4real on Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:28 pm

    Win. Hurrah
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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:36 pm

    "Honor" to different people throughout history has led to mass genocide being considered the right thing to do.

    Take that as you will big grin

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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by lordgodofhell on Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:42 pm

    Honor is helping your host through their first play thru without using OP gear racing ahead of them.

    Honor is setting up a time and place with a friend, and dueling according to strict rules and respecting each other afterwards.

    Honor is a code that is created and interpreted differently among us.


    Lordran is a hellish place full of those who have formed a pact with dark. Honor is a knights shield and sword. If you consider yourself a knight of good, fight with honor no matter your situation. If they gank, glitch, fish, so what? you are a knight of honor and you will win or die with honor.


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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:46 pm

    My simple view is to just respect others. Maybe honor isn't the right term for it, but I just think we should be respectful of one another in game.
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    Re: Is there still Honor among us?

    Post by cloudyeki on Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:54 pm

    As tolvo said, I'd rather some respect and decency coming from someone invading a dueling area. If your gonna be a douch though, don't expect me to be too kind to you. I will chainstab you with a broken sword hilt til you either die, DC, or get pushed over an edge.


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