Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

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    Knight Alundil
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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:25 pm

    Ghadis_God wrote:I have a build to maximize DMB, and I sacrifice scaling for it- a BSS has an AR, pre-buff, of 232. When the buff runs out, I have to switch to a weaker, Occult weapon to compete, which is a definite disadvantage of faith builds; their weapons are always weaker than pure scaling.

    Perfect. You chose to put points into Faith as opposed to dex and you have pros and cons to your build because of that. Yup.

    Edit: Just read this back. Just so you know im using your post as a good example ghadis silly

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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:33 pm

    Jansports wrote:Demon's souls had just as gouged pvp builds. Kat push locking, the absurdity of the meat cleaver, cracked ToB cursing weapons, the BBS in it's glory of one stat scaling. PvP became normalized around 120 as this was a common level to be finishing up NG+

    I do not think for a moment that From was unaware of this, popular equip load outs and general trends across the Armored Core series were noted and expanded on and further balanced. So my knowledge of Fromsoft as a company leads me to believe they are not only willing of following player made trends in their works, but capable of it.

    Secondly I would like to address "And if you do, you give your fast DEX weapon a damage output equal to that of a slower STR weapon, without any downside."

    and what if I buff a STR weapon? What about weapons whos critical animations have more than 1 hit? If swinging fast, as buffs add their damage per hit, were all that mattered when choosing a weapon Daggers would be more popular, Claymore? Murakumo? Large Club? These slow swinging weapons when buffed are not anything short of terrifying.

    DMB isn't particularly more or less powerful than other buffs, SLB hits a typically weaker resistence and CMW is capable of adding as much AR because of the Madj. difference in tailismans and catalysts. IF and this is a capitalized IF; DMB is fine for invasions where the intent is to destroy the other player for his sins why would not a guilty hallow fight as ferociously for his life with CMW? or SLB?

    There are two "primary" scaling stats, STR and DEX, each having their own merits, strength weapons deal more poise damage, have higher total AR, DEX weapons swing faster and some have bleed build up or higher crits. I think it is safe to assume Stamina and Health are useful for everyone http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=4872935857448783

    40 is well known to be the crest of where diminishing returns kick in, needing 30FAI or 32INT to equip the most suitable object (talisman or catalyst) and being able to hit 40 vit 40 end and 40 of your choice of a primary stat, with even some room to spare at right around 120 doesn't seem to be too far from an accident. Even considering the Arena brackets (sl100 as you mentioned) Dropping 10 levels off that is pretty easy, STR can 2h so taking it down to 30(452h for scaling) doesn't hurt your damage output all that much.

    while a dex build, the same in every way would need to drop down to 30 dex, where it cannot 2h for extra scaling, instead it's weapons swing faster (but understandably less hard) compared to the heavier str weapons.

    Do you think buffed weapons do too much? getting 2-3 shot doesn't seem appropriate? There is a strong muscley man with a very sharp very covered in crystal soul energy sword sundering you atwain. I'm suprised I lasted so long.

    I know I didn't harp on buffing STR weapons, but I think that it gouges damage in an unfair way as well, although it is less dangerous than the popular practice of buffing DEX weapons.

    And I also agree that SLB is comparably strong to DMB.

    And I don't particularly feels buffs should be nerfed or anything. I think they are a little two powerful. You can say something like, "There is a strong muscley man with a very sharp very covered in crystal soul energy sword sundering you atwain. I'm suprised I lasted so long." But despite all that this is a video game. A running attack from a buffed claymore shouldn't do 1000+ damage. . .

    But mainly this thread was to point out that in a competitive dueling environment, the cost on a character to add the ability to buff adds so much extra damage that it really is unbalanced, even if some base damage or vitality was sacrificed.

    Let me give an example

    http://tinyurl.com/c4seehx

    http://tinyurl.com/dxvlusu

    Sacrificed 76 HP, and 88 dmg for a 361 damage boost giving a total AR of around 700.

    With a katana.

    http://tinyurl.com/brjocdf

    Adding a divine weapon adds a backup weapon with comparable damage to the non-faith build's weapon, that is only weaker due to split damage.


    Last edited by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:36 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:I see this debate all over the Dark Souls community and even the people saying things are OP use the same argument to prove that point as the people who believe it isn't.

    Everything is choice, choose to do what you want. Claiming that buffs overpower this build or that build is a pretty invalid argument. A CHSM with Crystal soul spear combo against someone with low magic resist would overpower them, is that op? No of course it isn't. Player 1 chose to use sorcery while player 2 chose to not have good mag resist.

    I agree some things are more powerful in certain situations, but because that is a fact does not mean nothing is unbalanced. Take away the patches and play through using Iron Flesh, it obviously was something that was too powerful.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:39 pm

    Buggy Virus wrote:
    Knight Alundil wrote:I see this debate all over the Dark Souls community and even the people saying things are OP use the same argument to prove that point as the people who believe it isn't.

    Everything is choice, choose to do what you want. Claiming that buffs overpower this build or that build is a pretty invalid argument. A CHSM with Crystal soul spear combo against someone with low magic resist would overpower them, is that op? No of course it isn't. Player 1 chose to use sorcery while player 2 chose to not have good mag resist.

    I agree some things are more powerful in certain situations, but because that is a fact does not mean nothing is unbalanced. Take away the patches and play through using Iron Flesh, it obviously was something that was too powerful.

    If iron flesh gave you 100% physical and fire resistance and made you walk as if you were overweight I would still not call it OP.

    Of course I didnt play pyro back then so im not 100% on what you're saying about Iron Flesh. Could you tell me exactly how it was OP?

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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Yukon on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:42 pm

    Iron flesh was nerfed because it was op in PVE not PVP, I don't see the point you are trying to make?

    The spell made bosses laughable, but I don't think I ever saw it used and abused in PVP before the 1.05 patch if anything it was nerfed into uselessness, like the fog ring and arguably twop, which were highly complained about before the patch, but now seldom seen in PVP. Shockingly it seems the community found more and more 'op' rings spells and armours to point their fingers at and scream. surprising...


    Last edited by Yukon on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:47 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:46 pm

    I am pointing out that although certain things have benefits and disadvantages they can still be unbalanced to a fault within a game. I gave Iron Flesh in PvE as an example. I am pointing out that buffs are the same case.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by omega Elf on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:46 pm

    Nothing wrong with buffs, there are pro's and cons to everything, it's up to you
    how you invest your points.

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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by callipygias on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:47 pm

    zzombieboy wrote:By 'they' do you mean FROM? Following that logic, if buffs really were intended for PvE (but were being abused in PvP) then they would have been nerfed, because loads of PvPers complain about them.
    But honestly, and going strictly by this forum of fairly intelligent people, what DON'T pvpers complain about? I don't just say that to be mean, I mean it seriously. Even the Balder Side Sword has its OP thread.

    I think the people at Fromsoft are pretty good at making up their own minds by playing the game themselves. I think many/most of their patch decisions are based on pve, but when you see everything from the perspective of pvp, you won't see it that way. Example, if they nerf a certain op shield, my opinion is that they're doing it because it makes the GAME too easy. If they nerf elemental weapons it's because they're seeing/reading of players going through NG+++++++ at sl 1 (or maybe doing it themselves). Doubtless you'll see pvp reasons behind those decisions.

    Like Rant said, Dark Souls is a pve game, and pvp is just another part of it. I think From's decisions are based on the game, for the most part.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:54 pm

    omega Elf wrote:Nothing wrong with buffs, there are pro's and cons to everything, it's up to you
    how you invest your points.

    Buggy Virus wrote:
    Let me give an example

    http://tinyurl.com/c4seehx

    http://tinyurl.com/dxvlusu

    Sacrificed 76 HP, and 88 dmg for a 361 damage boost giving a total AR of around 700.

    With a katana.

    http://tinyurl.com/brjocdf

    Adding a divine weapon adds a backup weapon with comparable damage to the non-faith build's weapon, that is only weaker due to split damage.

    callipygias wrote:
    zzombieboy wrote:By 'they' do you mean FROM? Following that logic, if buffs really were intended for PvE (but were being abused in PvP) then they would have been nerfed, because loads of PvPers complain about them.
    But honestly, and going strictly by this forum of fairly intelligent people, what DON'T pvpers complain about? I don't just say that to be mean, I mean it seriously. Even the Balder Side Sword has its OP thread.

    I think the people at Fromsoft are pretty good at making up their own minds by playing the game themselves. I think many/most of their patch decisions are based on pve, but when you see everything from the perspective of pvp, you won't see it that way. Example, if they nerf a certain op shield, my opinion is that they're doing it because it makes the GAME too easy. If they nerf elemental weapons it's because they're seeing/reading of players going through NG+++++++ at sl 1 (or maybe doing it themselves). Doubtless you'll see pvp reasons behind those decisions.

    Like Rant said, Dark Souls is a pve game, and pvp is just another part of it. I think From's decisions are based on the game, for the most part.

    Yeah, this is completely true.

    Yukon wrote:Iron flesh was nerfed because it was op in PVE not PVP, I don't see the point you are trying to make?

    The spell made bosses laughable, but I don't think I ever saw it used and abused in PVP before the 1.05 patch if anything it was nerfed into uselessness, like the fog ring and arguably twop, which were highly complained about before the patch, but now seldom seen in PVP. Shockingly it seems the community found more and more 'op' rings spells and armours to point their fingers at and scream. surprising...

    Yes, earlier things that the community complained as very unfair were patched out. And then the community found new things to complain about. Simply because strategies that were originally abused earlier in the game and may have been the more unbalanced things in the game before it was patched doesn't mean other more subtly unbalanced things that come up later don't exist. You can characterize my argument against buffs as childish akin to pointing my finger and screaming, but I put forward real numbers and comparable builds using the miracle. And nothing so far has swayed my opinion that they are unbalanced.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Glutebrah on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:57 pm

    Since the DWGR nerf I seen a poster here say in response to me asking why they don't use wolf ring and green grass instead of cloranthy ring. Their reply was "I don't want some BS advantage over other people". So now in that players mind wolf ring is OP, and a bull **** advantage"

    So there will always be something new players will cry about.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Yukon on Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:08 pm

    Buggy Virus wrote:
    Yes, earlier things that the community complained as very unfair were patched out. And then the community found new things to complain about. Simply because strategies that were originally abused earlier in the game and may have been the more unbalanced things in the game before it was patched doesn't mean other more subtly unbalanced things that come up later don't exist. You can characterize my argument against buffs as childish akin to pointing my finger and screaming, but I put forward real numbers and comparable builds using the miracle. And nothing so far has swayed my opinion that they are unbalanced.

    Sorry mate, let me point out that you have made a good argument. This is just a medium for me to vent some of my frustrations with other playes and I didn't mean to imply you were childishly screaming, just that there is always complaints about this or that. Likewise my opinion isn't swayed, Buffs have their place in DUELING pvp just as well as they do in invasions.

    However, I think your main argument is based around the 'rules' that suggest we allow our dueling partners to buff their weapon unchallenged. This is something I disagree with but reluctantly follow. A buff is an advantage if I am dueling you and I do not have a counter to your buff you can bet I will try and pressure you out of your buff, unless you complain to me directly I'm going to run at you and get a free hit while you sparkle your sword if I'm not busy munching on grass or bowing.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by zzombieboy on Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:59 pm

    callipygias wrote:
    zzombieboy wrote:By 'they' do you mean FROM? Following that logic, if buffs really were intended for PvE (but were being abused in PvP) then they would have been nerfed, because loads of PvPers complain about them.
    But honestly, and going strictly by this forum of fairly intelligent people, what DON'T pvpers complain about? I don't just say that to be mean, I mean it seriously. Even the Balder Side Sword has its OP thread.

    I think the people at Fromsoft are pretty good at making up their own minds by playing the game themselves. I think many/most of their patch decisions are based on pve, but when you see everything from the perspective of pvp, you won't see it that way. Example, if they nerf a certain op shield, my opinion is that they're doing it because it makes the GAME too easy. If they nerf elemental weapons it's because they're seeing/reading of players going through NG+++++++ at sl 1 (or maybe doing it themselves). Doubtless you'll see pvp reasons behind those decisions.

    Like Rant said, Dark Souls is a pve game, and pvp is just another part of it. I think From's decisions are based on the game, for the most part.

    I disagree. The majority of the changes in Prepare to Die actually make the game harder. Dark Souls has already been quite heavily criticized for being too difficult for the 'mainstream' consumer-base to access. Why would FROM deliberately make this more so? Unless it was aimed at giving something extra to it's already established fanbase. PTD only even came about because FROM decided to honour the requests of PC gamers.

    All this said, how many people do you actually know who mainly play this for PvE?

    Secondly; a lot of the changes are oriented towards fixing peoples PvP gripes

    Some of the biggest changes

    Spoiler:

    -Hornet Ring nerf
    -GS Speed nerf
    -Elemental nerf
    -DWGR nerf
    -Critical Attack damage nerf, to name a few



    Do you honestly think these changes were made with PvE as the main motivation? I certainly don't. Yes, there are a couple of changes which are probably geared toawards PvE, but the majority (and the most striking) are almost certainly geared towards PvP.

    I'm not saying that it's a PvP game, but I think the PvE and PvP have almost certainly become equal considerations for From over the game's history, and I don't think it's correct to assume that the most powerful in game mechanics were 'made for PvE', especially (as I said earlier) given the items that were abused in Demon's Souls PvP.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:07 pm

    Yukon wrote:
    Buggy Virus wrote:
    Yes, earlier things that the community complained as very unfair were patched out. And then the community found new things to complain about. Simply because strategies that were originally abused earlier in the game and may have been the more unbalanced things in the game before it was patched doesn't mean other more subtly unbalanced things that come up later don't exist. You can characterize my argument against buffs as childish akin to pointing my finger and screaming, but I put forward real numbers and comparable builds using the miracle. And nothing so far has swayed my opinion that they are unbalanced.

    Sorry mate, let me point out that you have made a good argument. This is just a medium for me to vent some of my frustrations with other playes and I didn't mean to imply you were childishly screaming, just that there is always complaints about this or that. Likewise my opinion isn't swayed, Buffs have their place in DUELING pvp just as well as they do in invasions.

    However, I think your main argument is based around the 'rules' that suggest we allow our dueling partners to buff their weapon unchallenged. This is something I disagree with but reluctantly follow. A buff is an advantage if I am dueling you and I do not have a counter to your buff you can bet I will try and pressure you out of your buff, unless you complain to me directly I'm going to run at you and get a free hit while you sparkle your sword if I'm not busy munching on grass or bowing.

    Oh, I certainly don't let people buff without attacking them. But in most dueling venues, if they start to buff from the other side of the burg or across the kiln stone area, you have a chance to get in maybe one sprinting attack. And that's a chance, if they have a fast roll or DWGR they will likely avoid you altogether.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Jansports on Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:49 pm

    I think you underestimate the actual damage difference from 420ar down to 332, it's sizable. And splitting AR is a pretty big deal as well.

    You are making trade offs for investing the points to cast a buff, if it gets turtled/kited off then you're weaker for the rest of the fight, any fight you cannot buff for it's similar. You buff? No 45dex cast speed, no easily past diminishing returns scaling from str for 2handing with 30 (saves 10 points) No extra health No extra burden no Homing soul mass/ no WoG/

    That's the point. When you CHOOSE to make a character a certain way you trade X for Y and Z for W, A for B and D for T. You don't get everything. You get what you choose.

    If, as you say, a 30fai Divine weapon's damage is "Comparable" to a 40dex's Pure AR then currently Elemental weapons(Chaos and Lit both have higher total AR than the divine you proposed) would out put similar damage to a 40dex Scaling weapon, which we know to be untrue. Else EVERY build would be an Ele vit gouge. (also we empirically know 420 pure AR is better than the 498 split of the lit uchi, making the 431 split of the divine proposed for use when a buff runs dry is certainly a handicap)

    Sure 88 damage doesn't seem like much on paper, but if we look at it the other way going from 332 to 420 is ~about~ a 33% increase. All the time. AND if 500 split AR is not as profitable for damage as 420 pure (comparing 40dex +15 to +5 chaos) then a mere 20% increase to 700 split AR. temporarily, is perhaps not as overwhelmingly more powerful than first imagined.
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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by omega Elf on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:10 pm

    [quote="Buggy Virus"]
    omega Elf wrote:Nothing wrong with buffs, there are pro's and cons to everything, it's up to you
    how you invest your points.

    Buggy Virus wrote:
    Let me give an example

    http://tinyurl.com/c4seehx

    http://tinyurl.com/dxvlusu

    Sacrificed 76 HP, and 88 dmg for a 361 damage boost giving a total AR of around 700.

    With a katana.

    http://tinyurl.com/brjocdf

    Adding a divine weapon adds a backup weapon with comparable damage to the non-faith build's weapon, that is only weaker due to split damage.

    If your not buffing you should be going elemental
    http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=4445971885997872
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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Glutebrah on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:18 pm

    omega Elf wrote:
    If your not buffing you should be going elemental
    http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=4445971885997872

    elemental is lame, i will stick wit my Chaos Blade for non buffs


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by CaptanSpudsy on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:55 pm

    In my opinion, the weapons that absolutely need buffs are the thrusting swords. They don't do enough damage to warrant them w/o a buff. It usually takes 5-10 pokes with a Richard's +15 w/ CMW to kill someone. As opposed to the 15-20 pokes it'd take w/o CMW. It is quite hard dodging other, more damaging attacks long enough to get those 20 pokes in. But yes, on some weapons buffs are incredibly OP.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Spurgun on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:56 pm

    I think that buffs are a bit OP at sl 120 (not saying that they should be nerfed). That's why i mostly PvP at 80-100 right now. That way i can avoid them. And if someone uses a build at that sl, it means that they actually sacrificed something for it.
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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by ChizFreak on Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:02 pm

    You know STR weapons can be buffed too. And most DEX weapons while being fast have very low poise damage. Great Club +15 with 34 STR, buffed with Darkmoon Blade Rank 2, gave me like 1200 damage. That combined with poise and good tactics, I just take 1 hit from you and I crush your head up.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by ChizFreak on Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:06 pm

    Spurgun wrote:I think that buffs are a bit OP at sl 120 (not saying that they should be nerfed). That's why i mostly PvP at 80-100 right now. That way i can avoid them. And if someone uses a build at that sl, it means that they actually sacrificed something for it.

    At 120 all builds are balanced. It's the perfect level. Why do you think they are OP? One great magic barrier and they are denied. Crest SHield +5. Good dodging. At that level one should have at least one tool to counter magic-based attacks. Either good endurance for dodging, a good shield, good heavy armor, or miracles. They are not OP. Only thing that were OP, were backstabs. And in the PC edition their damage was reduced along with ripostes. And the Hornet's Ring was nerfed to +30%.

    And highest critical damage weapon in the game (the Dark Silver Tracer) can't be enchanted.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:12 pm

    Yes I'd say they aren't perfectly balanced, considering just how much damage can be gained with them in PvP. But it is a mainly PvE game, so it's to be expected truly.

    Also in regards to using elementals instead of pure physical, you'll deal less damage unless you're just going for backstabs or ripostes.

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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by goober0331 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:12 pm

    You wanna know the perfect way to counter a buff?

    Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge. There, problem solved.

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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Spurgun on Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:19 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:

    At 120 all builds are balanced. It's the perfect level. Why do you think they are OP? One great magic barrier and they are denied. Crest SHield +5. Good dodging. At that level one should have at least one tool to counter magic-based attacks. Either good endurance for dodging, a good shield, good heavy armor, or miracles. They are not OP. Only thing that were OP, were backstabs. And in the PC edition their damage was reduced along with ripostes. And the Hornet's Ring was nerfed to +30%.

    And highest critical damage weapon in the game (the Dark Silver Tracer) can't be enchanted.

    As i said, i go to lower sl's. That solves the problem for me.

    And sl 120 builds aren't balanced. Buffs rule. Any pure dex/str build is weaker than a buff build (i beat people with buff builds, but that's because of skill. Not because my builds are more powerful). And good luck stopping SLB with a GMB.
    Almost everyone has more than enough endurance to dodge, it isn't an advantage.
    Shields doesn't stop the chip damage, or bleed, or deadangles, or BS's.
    How do miracles help against buffs?
    And heavy armor doesn't help that much.
    Buffs gives them a minute to attack you, dealing a lot of damage with every hit. And you can trade blows. So you have to turtle or dodge. And when their buff runs out, you'll probably been hit at least once, and they either have a weapon that is still very strong or they can switch to one. So the "real" fight will start with you at lower health.
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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:09 pm

    Spurgun wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:

    At 120 all builds are balanced. It's the perfect level. Why do you think they are OP? One great magic barrier and they are denied. Crest SHield +5. Good dodging. At that level one should have at least one tool to counter magic-based attacks. Either good endurance for dodging, a good shield, good heavy armor, or miracles. They are not OP. Only thing that were OP, were backstabs. And in the PC edition their damage was reduced along with ripostes. And the Hornet's Ring was nerfed to +30%.

    And highest critical damage weapon in the game (the Dark Silver Tracer) can't be enchanted.

    As i said, i go to lower sl's. That solves the problem for me.

    And sl 120 builds aren't balanced. Buffs rule. Any pure dex/str build is weaker than a buff build (i beat people with buff builds, but that's because of skill. Not because my builds are more powerful). And good luck stopping SLB with a GMB.
    Almost everyone has more than enough endurance to dodge, it isn't an advantage.
    Shields doesn't stop the chip damage, or bleed, or deadangles, or BS's.
    How do miracles help against buffs?
    And heavy armor doesn't help that much.
    Buffs gives them a minute to attack you, dealing a lot of damage with every hit. And you can trade blows. So you have to turtle or dodge. And when their buff runs out, you'll probably been hit at least once, and they either have a weapon that is still very strong or they can switch to one. So the "real" fight will start with you at lower health.


    This is going by your skill, not everyones. Many other people including myself can counter buffs easily with these abilitys.

    Maybe I couldnt with you, but that doesn't mean that no one could.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Spurgun on Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:10 pm

    We'll just have to agree to disagree.

    And i have no problem with buffs at lower SLs.

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