Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

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    Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:43 am

    After dueling and invading for quite a long time in this game I've come to my conclusion that buffs such as crystal magic weapon, sunlight blade, and darkmoon blade are really some of the unbalanced unfair things in the game for PvP.

    These in my opinion are prime examples of the fact that Dark Souls is not meant for competitive PvP.

    Obviously one is entirely intended to be used against players, the darkmoon blade, and the developers expected the others too would be used in invasion, but not to the extent that players duel.

    In duels, the ability to buff your weapon, due to the fact that you normally start so far away, is pretty much guarenteed. And if you do, you give your fast DEX weapon a damage output equal to that of a slower STR weapon, without any downside.

    That really isn't far. Sire it will eventually run out, but when it does, their weapon simply goes from being that best possible weapon in the game, to a weapon which is balanced with speed and ability to be just as good as your's. So really Buffs give one player a clear cut advantage over the other player for a little while with no correlation to skill. And even if you are content to roll around until it runs out (which is actually the most fair strategy for non-buff users to use) that just isn't good gameplay.

    On the other hand, I think buffs are a great idea. They give players ways to really quickly lay down damage for a short time in higher NG+s. And the casting times in PvE are much more dangerous as bosses don't hesitate, but doggedly pursue.

    To clarify, I'm not saying buffs are bad, I'm just pointing out that if we are going to complain about things like DWGR, Heavy Armors, or masks, buffs seem to be a much bigger culprit in my opinion.

    But you may point out that darkmoon blade is specifically reserved for a PvP covenant. But the expectations of PvP for the Devs was invasions. Straight, ruthless invasions where you use everything at your disposal. Basically invaders were another enemy in the general hoard. So invaders using buffs was just a hazard, and since you weren't dueling or anything, running away was a very reasonable thing to do, even if it was across the map. But buffs could give invaders a sense of impending demise, as you need to run away fast enough, but you must clear mobs as you go or a player with a buffed weapon will be at your back. This is great gameplay mechanics. Further the strongest buff was reserved for darkmoon blades.

    The way darkmoon blades was supposed to work is they hunt the guilty. So as long as you didn't do anything terrible, you didn't need to worry about invasions. But the fact is, in how the gameplay is so contorted now, darkmoon blade is just another magic in players' arsenal to use. It doesn't hold the same weight of a judge who has hunted you down due to your guilty past and now has righteous retribution due to his OP magic. Now I get invaded by red phantoms using darkmoon blade and what not.

    The last point is that I don't think DEVs expected players to be building characters so meticulously. I think 30 faith was considered extravagant in their minds, and the fact that players would be able to have 30 faith with already great damage output with their weapons would be unlikely, or reserved for higher level players. I believe they expected the players to be using sunlight blade to be balanced by the fact that they don't have as high a damage output, or don't have as high VIT, and the short boost in their character would be really quite balanced against non-magic users. But with what the community has become, in which most builds are guaged for PvP this isn't the case, and the Devs honestly should have forseen that it obviously wouldn't be. I love Fromsoft, but they did do some things wrong, I think we can agree.

    So how would I fix this? There really isn't a way. Maybe everyone might agree with me that buffs are OP, and we can add it to that long list we often complain and send hatemail about, like back stabs and masks, but we can't police it.

    I personally am going to enjoy the 99 level cap though, since I think hybrid builds at 120 are quite canned and annoying, but I would even personally go down to a 70-80 level range, too bad, but this last paragraph is just my opinion.

    Buggy Virus wrote:
    Let me give an example

    http://tinyurl.com/c4seehx

    http://tinyurl.com/dxvlusu

    Sacrificed 76 HP, and 88 dmg for a 361 damage boost giving a total AR of around 700.

    With a katana.

    http://tinyurl.com/brjocdf

    Adding a divine weapon adds a backup weapon with comparable damage to the non-faith build's weapon, that is only weaker due to split damage.


    Last edited by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by IceIfrit666 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:04 pm

    I agree 100%
    I used to use DMB on all weapons but it just took the fun out of fights and duels, three swings and I would win. It just wasn't fun.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by zzombieboy on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:26 pm

    Personally, my opinion of buffs (based on the 1 build I have that uses one) is that if I've sacrificed Vit and Endurance, and therefore stamina, defence and poise to make a purely offensive build, I have every right to use it. That's because I would only consider buffing with 50 in either Int or Faith because that fits in with the offensive mindset.

    I don't really agree with what you say though. Based on all the 'broken' things that were abused in Demon's Souls PvP, I don't think it's a far cry to assume that the Dev's would have a pretty good idea how some people would use buffs. The fact that buffs haven't been nerfed would also suggest this (or that they just don't care, which I don't think is the case).

    Edit: In the case of the higher level players with buffs for no sacrifice, I do agree with you that it is unbalanced though, if a lower level player is invaded by, or invades them. But then, that's unbalanced in itself.


    Last edited by zzombieboy on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:41 pm; edited 4 times in total


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:33 pm

    zzombieboy wrote:Personally, my opinion of buffs (based on the 1 build I have that uses one) is that if I've sacrificed Vit and Endurance, and therefore stamina, defence and poise to make a purely offensive build, I have every right to use it. That's because I would only consider buffing with 50 in either Int or Faith because that fits in with the offensive mindset.

    I don't really agree with what you say though. Based on the 'broken' things that were abused in Demon's Souls PvP, I don't think it's a far cry to assume that the Dev's would have a pretty good idea how some people would use buffs. The fact that buffs haven't been nerfed would also suggest this (or that they just don't care, which I don't think is the case).

    ^This

    It all comes down to how you choose to spend your points. Dont want buffs? Cool grab a diff spell. I use all my attunement slots and grab charcoal pine resin too. It requires no stat points so its the weakest buff. Seems fair to me.

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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by RANT on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:38 pm

    I agree since the souls series was not intended for competitive PvP, people complain about how unbalanced dark souls is(which it is) but they don't realise that this is a pve game and not cod. The online is just another extension to it which people of course think it's the most important thing but it's not, the PvP community is a very small one, just look at the wikis members and you'll find out, a lot of people just play it once or until the get to the highest level and they're done with it.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by zzombieboy on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:43 pm

    RantFromRant wrote:I agree since the souls series was not intended for competitive PvP, people complain about how unbalanced dark souls is(which it is) but they don't realise that this is a pve game and not cod. The online is just another extension to it which people of course think it's the most important thing but it's not, the PvP community is a very small one, just look at the wikis members and you'll find out, a lot of people just play it once or until the get to the highest level and they're done with it.

    Then why wouldn't they have nerfed Buffs along with all the other PvP oriented things that were nerfed? It's inconceivable that FROM aren't aware of the PvP community and what it is doing when you consider everything that was changed in Prepare to Die, therefore it was obviously a conscious decision to leave buffs as they are.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by RANT on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:50 pm

    Because the only people that b1tch about EVERYTHING is the PvP community and they end up screwing over the pve community because they're ok with the way the game is.


    Last edited by RantFromRant on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by goober0331 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:56 pm

    Yea just run away from the buff, or just fight better than the other person.

    Different strokes for different folks......
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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by zzombieboy on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:03 pm

    By 'they' do you mean FROM? Following that logic, if buffs really were intended for PvE (but were being abused in PvP) then they would have been nerfed, because loads of PvPers complain about them.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Glutebrah on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:07 pm

    i got zero pleasure 3 shotting people with SLB and DMB, which is why i switched to Chaos blade so long ago.

    fights that last 2-3 hits are not fun, i would rather lose a match after exchanging 8-10 blows then to win after 2-3 R1 hits

    i have nothing against buff users, but when i face one and i hit them 7-8 times get their life super low then get R1 spammed 3x cuz i make one mistake and die, i still smile because i out played them.


    Last edited by Glutebrah on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by RANT on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:12 pm

    They nerfed spells and other stuffs that people complained about and still complain About, if not that then there's other things they'll complain about like buffs since they're never happy and apparently 10k or 20k signatures are enough to get them to change things. The only thing hat pisses me off is the lag which clearly there's nothing anyone can do about so you learn to deal with it.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Glutebrah on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:13 pm

    RantFromRant wrote:They nerfed spells and other stuffs that people complained about and still complain About, if not that then there's other things they'll complain about like buffs since they're never happy and apparently 10k or 20k signatures are enough to get them to change things. The only thing hat pisses me off is the lag which clearly there's nothing anyone can do about so you learn to deal with it.

    PC has so much less lag its awesome. how ever the connection to summon and arena and invade is some times awful.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by zzombieboy on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:14 pm

    Glutebrah wrote:i got zero pleasure 3 shotting people with SLB and DMB, which is why i switched to Chaos blade so long ago.

    fights that last 2-3 hits are not fun, i would rather lose a match after exchanging 8-10 blows then to win after 2-3 R1 hits

    I think that's the general consensus (myself included). That's not the issue the OP was raising though.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Rifter7 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:15 pm

    have you tried from soft's armored core games?

    they definitely meant to put it in knowing the player base would exploit it. they love ohko s***.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by RANT on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:17 pm

    I wish I had a good enough pc to run it, damn.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by RANT on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:19 pm

    I love armored core! Haven't played them since ps2 since they got boring which I hope they don't do to the souls series.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by WarriorOfBenOwnage on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:20 pm

    I've really kinda got to agree with you here. Buffs are over-powered, and FROM didn't really plan for this much competitive, organized PvP. The one buff I wouldn't consider OP would be Great Magic Weapon, as to me, it fulfills the roll a buff should fill. It's a modest damage boost that can be cast a few times to get you through the harder fights of PvE, and it does enough damage to be useful in PvP, but not enough to be a complete game changer. I like the resins too, for the same reasons.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Rifter7 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:21 pm

    from basically merged chromehounds with ac4. we now have armored corehounds.

    but yeah, in all of their other games they have these really in depth designs and strange strategies for killing players instantly or damn well near there. they have it in dark souls and demon's souls, too.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:26 pm

    Glutebrah wrote:i got zero pleasure 3 shotting people with SLB and DMB, which is why i switched to Chaos blade so long ago.

    fights that last 2-3 hits are not fun, i would rather lose a match after exchanging 8-10 blows then to win after 2-3 R1 hits

    i have nothing against buff users, but when i face one and i hit them 7-8 times get their life super low then get R1 spammed 3x cuz i make one mistake and die, i still smile because i out played them.

    Couldn't agree with this more. If you think buffs are OP then do as Glutebrah does. Be happy with the fact that you've outplayed them. Surely that's what this is all about right? People being angry that they're superior skill is bested by what they call an OP spell. Eat some humble pie and move on happy

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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Jansports on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:31 pm

    Demon's souls had just as gouged pvp builds. Kat push locking, the absurdity of the meat cleaver, cracked ToB cursing weapons, the BBS in it's glory of one stat scaling. PvP became normalized around 120 as this was a common level to be finishing up NG+

    I do not think for a moment that From was unaware of this, popular equip load outs and general trends across the Armored Core series were noted and expanded on and further balanced. So my knowledge of Fromsoft as a company leads me to believe they are not only willing of following player made trends in their works, but capable of it.

    Secondly I would like to address "And if you do, you give your fast DEX weapon a damage output equal to that of a slower STR weapon, without any downside."

    and what if I buff a STR weapon? What about weapons whos critical animations have more than 1 hit? If swinging fast, as buffs add their damage per hit, were all that mattered when choosing a weapon Daggers would be more popular, Claymore? Murakumo? Large Club? These slow swinging weapons when buffed are not anything short of terrifying.

    DMB isn't particularly more or less powerful than other buffs, SLB hits a typically weaker resistence and CMW is capable of adding as much AR because of the Madj. difference in tailismans and catalysts. IF and this is a capitalized IF; DMB is fine for invasions where the intent is to destroy the other player for his sins why would not a guilty hallow fight as ferociously for his life with CMW? or SLB?

    There are two "primary" scaling stats, STR and DEX, each having their own merits, strength weapons deal more poise damage, have higher total AR, DEX weapons swing faster and some have bleed build up or higher crits. I think it is safe to assume Stamina and Health are useful for everyone http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=4872935857448783

    40 is well known to be the crest of where diminishing returns kick in, needing 30FAI or 32INT to equip the most suitable object (talisman or catalyst) and being able to hit 40 vit 40 end and 40 of your choice of a primary stat, with even some room to spare at right around 120 doesn't seem to be too far from an accident. Even considering the Arena brackets (sl100 as you mentioned) Dropping 10 levels off that is pretty easy, STR can 2h so taking it down to 30(452h for scaling) doesn't hurt your damage output all that much.

    while a dex build, the same in every way would need to drop down to 30 dex, where it cannot 2h for extra scaling, instead it's weapons swing faster (but understandably less hard) compared to the heavier str weapons.

    Do you think buffed weapons do too much? getting 2-3 shot doesn't seem appropriate? There is a strong muscley man with a very sharp very covered in crystal soul energy sword sundering you atwain. I'm suprised I lasted so long.
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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Rifter7 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:56 pm

    swing speed doesn't matter if you're going for backstabs.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Glutebrah on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:56 pm

    Jansports wrote:
    Do you think buffed weapons do too much? getting 2-3 shot doesn't seem appropriate? There is a strong muscley man with a very sharp very covered in crystal soul energy sword sundering you atwain. I'm suprised I lasted so long.

    i have no problem getting 3 shot, it is perfectly fine. i just don't find it fun when i am the one doing it. its like you can only play GTA for so long with unlimited everything destroying everything you see before the game becomes to boring.

    i got a nasty message once because i killed some one with RTSR after a R2 Balder Side Sword attack for 680 some damage. he told me the ring was the most OP thing in the game and called me a noob for needing it to win (just to add he had MoM on and pushing near 2k life, so for me to get him down to under 700 life doing 180-220 a hit with chaos blade took a while). well i do agree it is a pretty OP ring i simply replied "i do as much damage when i am 1 hit from death as you do at 100% life with your DMB washing pole"


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by RANT on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:00 pm

    Lol sore loser, rtsr is not op since are one hit away from dying. It-shirts they're fault for getting hi knowing gig had that thing on.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:00 pm

    I see this debate all over the Dark Souls community and even the people saying things are OP use the same argument to prove that point as the people who believe it isn't.

    Everything is choice, choose to do what you want. Claiming that buffs overpower this build or that build is a pretty invalid argument. A CHSM with Crystal soul spear combo against someone with low magic resist would overpower them, is that op? No of course it isn't. Player 1 chose to use sorcery while player 2 chose to not have good mag resist.

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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

    Post by Ghadis_God on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:23 pm

    I have a build to maximize DMB, and I sacrifice scaling for it- a BSS has an AR, pre-buff, of 232. When the buff runs out, I have to switch to a weaker, Occult weapon to compete, which is a definite disadvantage of faith builds; their weapons are always weaker than pure scaling.


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    Re: Buffs weren't intended for competitive PvP

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      Current date/time is Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:20 pm