Sirlin Playing To Win

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    Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:18 pm

    I know this is a hot topic, but I do think it's important and I'm sorry I missed all the previous discussions.

    Playing to win. There seems to be a few camps to this, but the main one is Sirlin's playing to win style; in that, use everything in the system, and eventually the game will adapt. For all those that aren't familiar with this, give it a read: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

    However, he made a couple of key points that may or may not be valid. For instance, he stated Akuma was just so over-powered, that he became a banned character. Basically, the system was broken and if the Dev's couldn't fix it, the fan base should.

    I must say I'm somewhat in Sirlin's camp. However, there are some caveats I want to say. If you are playing to win, there's best builds. So if the Dev's did not properly balance everything, then some builds are plain better than others, and with infinite variations of choices, there will only be a handful of actual, viable, tourney level choices. Because this leads to stagnating gameplay (everyone chooses Akuma, hurray!) I'm not all for playing to win at all costs.

    Also, I invest in good hardware and a good internect connection. Others cannot or do not. I can make a choice to change my input/outputs, to packetburst, to lagswitch. These are all within the parameters of the game. To torrent hard falls in here as well. Should I? It's a gray area. What is the difference if I can't upload well because I lag switched and I can't upload well because I chose to Torrent? Or I chose to use a dialup instead of Fibre? There's more gray in playing to win than a lot of people see on the surface. Can I DoS someone? Definitely outside the boundaries of the game. (Unsure if you can even extract the IP of other computers with the setup FROM has).

    Even if you keep the discussion to just what's in the game, the optimal choice syndrome makes the game dull, IMO. When's the last time I've fought someone in heavy armour, with a greatshield? With the plethora of weapons, only a handful really get used. And of those, many are just variations on each other, with not a big difference in playstyle.

    Sirlin wrote an interesting article recently on the Women's Badminton incident in the Olympics http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/01/sport/olympics-badminton-scandal/. For all those that aren't aware of what happened, the short version is this: China, South Korea and Indonesia were all disqualified because they were trying to lose on purpose, to give themselves a better chance at getting a gold medal. Now, I agree with Sirlin, that this is a problem of the tournament setup. But, and it's a very big but, the answer is to play to win in the match, and appeal the rules later. Having all those spectators time wasted, and airtime, is just ridiculous.

    Here's sirlin's take on it:
    http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2012/8/1/playing-to-win-in-badminton.html

    My point here, is that the game will be flawed, will not be perfectly balanced, and yes, the best result would be if everything was balanced and the dev team could fix all the flaws. But that's not the reality. So how do you have the most fun? Do you use the system, and it' sbuilt in flaws, and play to win? For some people, yes. But realize that if you go down that path, do not complain about 3 'best builds' that always appear. Because that is exactly what people will be doing. Even if it's not as blatant as the DWGR, there will be a best choice, and people trying to win will pick it.

    So play your best, play to win, but don't play to win at all costs. Win, but try to have the other person have a decent time too. Teach someone instead of killing them mercilessly. If I enjoy a game of chess, the best way to get a competitive bunch of chess players isn't to murder everyone new to the game. Teach, encourage, bring them up to speed, then kill them.

    In the end, my personal want would be to have more dark souls games made, more money to be allocated to get a bigger world, and a more balanced one. And that will be done by expanding the fan base. You don't expand the fan base by backstabbing and riposting all the new players out there. So have some mercy!

    Cheers!


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by Tristan on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:31 pm

    I will not discuss this any further than I already have. You have some interesting statements and I personally like your advice to veterans that feel like a "boss" when they smother a new character/player. It's sort of sickening to see people constantly invading low levels, but perhaps the dlc will fix some of that and will be less frequent than before. I literally just parry spammed someone at lvl 8 4 times and even with 4 crits his health was just below 50%. I mind as well take the loss and try to beat Havel on my own. I'd rather be killed by Havel a dozen times over grieved once by some of these people.


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:47 pm

    Yeah, I read that entire thread and I really hope people don't become heated. It's different view points, and everyone should try to understand everyone else's without getting emotionally involved and looking for solutions. People like ForumPirate don't (I think) get their joy out of schooling new players; they get their joy out of playing to win with someone just as hard as they are, using every tactic available.

    In starcraft, players get matched together based on a ranking system; dark souls has no such thing, so a new player could come up against a veteran. Obviously the veteran should win. The problem is, is that the matchup shouldn't occur (in my mind). One player is doomed to lose from the get go.

    The same holds true with the equipment. A low level player should be able to wield a Lightning weapon; but should they be able to invade a brand new toon? With the BB glitch I don't know if this will become more or less common. What is true, is that new characters won't have a lot of defence. Running for the fog door, disconnecting, possibly a well timed Force spell. Can't think of much else. Is it a fair contest? No. Is it playing to win? ... no. That is Akuma, god mode. Do players have fun choosing Akuma and schooling the casual gamer that inserts a quarter to play? Absolutely there are people like this. In my opinion, they shouldn't be allowed to invade in the first place.

    Rankings could help this situation I think. For invading base equipment players early on with end game weapons, that could potentially be fixed by applying hidden "points" to gear, and a match making system applied that fixes people up with like gear. This would potentially dilute the amount of online interaction, but would solve trolling (which is an issue in my opinion).


    Last edited by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by cloudyeki on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:48 pm

    I've read the first article before, and the division of scrub/beginner vs PTW/veterans is something I learned of when I first played blazblue online (I mained Jin and spent hours learning combos) and honestly BOTH sides are completely retarded.

    Beginners should have an open mind and be advised on new ideas and possible tricks, as well as showing them the work-arounds of harder to understand stuff, and veterans shouldn't be up in arms, claiming themselves the best and being so up tight. It's a game, not a war, not every fight is about winning.

    But then again, some people find there fun in winning. They just gotta learn to lose with grace Bow


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:54 pm

    Simply put, I will not be held responsible for the enjoyment of others. Step up or get out of my way.

    I'm happy to teach if I'm asked, but I view holding back in competition, on either parties end, as an insult and am appropriatly ruthless.

    There is always a limited number of best choices that render everything else obsolete (even if some of it is quite good). The only exceptions I can think of are games like conker live and reloaded multiplayer, where there are extremely limited choices and they're designed specifically to balance each other, which basically turns the game into a more complex version of rock paper scissors. That gets significantly more complex as more choices and customisation are introduced, thus the imbalance.

    If someone can point out a perfecly balanced game with as many gear and build options as dks has I'll be happy to play it, but as nothing in dks is even half as effective compared to everything else as akuma was compared to the other characters, I'm doing whatever it takes and I refuse to be sorry for it.



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    This applies, I don't grief but I love fighting griefers most of the time. I just want a challenge. Not a self imposed challenge like doing a sl1 run, but a challenge because my opponent is good enough to provide me with 1, and I want to win, to validate the effort I've put in to overcome such challenges. Griefing isn't hard in the least, so I have no interest.


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by cloudyeki on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:10 pm

    I'd say S4, since it's in-game gear is balanced rather well, but then I'd have to mention the money items that are *** OP to hell and back, and having even 1 money wep in a game will mean that that team wins. Usually.


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by Montante on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:16 pm

    'Cut and dry' playing to win is boring, if you ask me. If there's a recognised 'best' of something out there, I'll avoid using it. I certainly play to win, but I have a need of finding my own little niche or handicap to define myself. When I've done that I'll be coming for you. :face:

    It's an unlikely approach to win you any tournaments, but it gives me a sense of purpose. I've always liked artificial challenges more than pure player-to-player.

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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:17 pm

    Come on Pirate, you can't be like that for all activities.

    If you're teaching a game to your niece, nephew, girlfriend, mother, do you just destroy them? I doubt it, but maybe you do.

    If you play some recreational basketball, where the goal is to play to win, do you throw the elbows? Purposely foul players that have a bad shot? (the shaq attack!) I do think you mean playing to win with people at your own calibre, but maybe you apply that doctrine to all players you encounter.

    Perhaps you treat all forms of invasion as competition. So you're in the forest, and you get invaded by someone with a gargoyles helm, Crimson robes, warrior armour, and is fat rolling with a long sword. An experienced player can tell immediately this is a new player. For myself, I do not treat it as a competition at that point. I treat it as a learning experience for a new player, so I swap out my gear and weapons. There is nothing to be learned by either party by winning at all costs against them.

    In a duel, absolutely, it's a competition. Do what you can to win. If the invader is unknown, same camp. But as soon as I can tell the person is terrible, or new (same thing?), I make it my job to teach them something before I kill them, or at least make the fight entertaining. I do this selfishly, to try and encourage more players into the game. Just like I encourage the miss to play a new board game I bought. The more players, the better!

    You're right Forum, the game is not balanced, but then the result is a limited number of options. I'm not sure if what you're saying is that Optimal equipment choices are the unfortunate result of the Play to Win mentality, or if you're saying that the reality is there's only so many best builds and you want people to have variety. Or maybe you're not saying either?


    Last edited by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by Tristan on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:21 pm

    If someone can point out a perfecly balanced game with as many gear and build options as dks has I'll be happy to play it, but as nothing in dks is even half as effective compared to everything else as akuma was compared to the other characters, I'm doing whatever it takes and I refuse to be sorry for it.

    To not try to fix balancing issues is worse than having them in itself. To be complacent is more destructive than looking to better the gaming experience for everyone by changing it.

    Diablo II is very well balanced and has been for a long time now. It took patches and effort, but with a noncomplacent attitude it was acheived. I don't think I should have to mention the equipment variety.


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:30 pm

    Starcraft and Starcraft 2 are very balanced and have tons of choices in approach and play. But to achieve that, you need the resources and money. How long was Starcraft2 in development and tested?

    To get resources/money, you need generous investors, or a dedicated/large community. FROM is not Blizzard in terms of resources.

    I do think Forum has the right approach, if FROM would fix the bugs and the imbalanced weapons/gear. Play and adapt, and fix the flaws that come out that cannot be fixed through playstyle. But with so many variables, the testing is enormous.


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by callipygias on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:43 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote: I'm doing whatever it takes and I refuse to be sorry for it.
    You say that so much I'm beginning to think you're either very proud of it, or very ashamed.


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:46 pm

    I think there's a misunderstanding. I think he's saying that in the context of an evenly or close to evenly matched fight, that he does everything to win, not that he trolls new players in the burg and taunts them.

    Please everyone, assume that everyone is a reasonable, nice person that just has a different playstyle and attitude. Err on the side of caution, and please no inflammatory comments...

    He may think that you're hard up on him because he'll backstab someone in a duel, which he considers to be absolutely fine (as do I). Backstab fishing can and is countered, and in a duel there's nothing wrong with this. Tristan says he plays to win, within certain boundaries and contexts. Everyone does. No one plays to lose.


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by Rifter7 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:09 pm

    hey this thread again.

    akuma is balanced. gtfo sirlin.


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by DarkW17 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:47 pm

    I myself am a fairly competitive person I grew up in competative sports and like to excel and be the best I can be at anything I attempt in life....I take the same approach to dark souls!

    When I 1st started to snow ski I was terrible of course...over time I became a little better but never really went past my comfort lvl...I just kinda floated as an average skiier...then I met some REALLY good ski friends that pushed me beyond my limit...but they did it in a helpful supportive manner...I would smash down black diamonds when I was clearly a blue run type skiier...but after smashing down that same run I once feared enough times out of control I eventually got a rythm for it and could cruz down it no problem...maybe even beat those same friends!

    But I spent the time and effort required to get better at something I truely enjoyed so felt as tho I earned the skill I had aquired!

    That being said if I had a NOOB ski friend that wanted to come with me....would I ditch him smash through the trees...then meet him at the bottom and be like hahahaha you suck?

    Of course not I would work with him and spend the day trying to get him a little better so that next time he might be able to take a blue instead of a green!

    Did I lower my skill lvl to do this? Of course I did but it was for the principle of sportsmanship that I value!

    So in Dark souls I clearly wanna be the best I can and start every duel thinking I will win....do I always win? Of course not I am simplying playing the best I can with the skillzs I have aquired!

    I treat every opponent the same the first time I fight them...I go all out BS or parry or stunlock whatever it may be that day....now if that same guy invades me again I'm going to maybe buff charcoal instead of slb...if that's to much maybe no buff...the point is I play to be the best I can be but with some courtsey and sportsmanship when required!

    I truely want that 'noob' to take his loss and learn from it not rage quit and I will taker down a notch and be a good sport if that's what's required!


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:07 pm

    Very proud. Like vegeta (the character not the fourm member) status proud.

    I don't know the person or their abilities. To assume they're new or unskilled is an insult, and is setting myself up for failure. To lower myself to their level out of pity is a worse insult. By giving my best, I show my opponent the respect they deserve and acknowledge the potential threat they pose.

    If they don't wish to fight me they need only say so and I'll likely leave, if they wish me to teach they need only ask and I'll likely oblige. I will not insult them by holding back in a competition.

    Again, teaching is not competition, so if I'm being asked to teach then I hold back and explain my moves so they can follow.

    Also, snowboarding with a less skilled friend, or any friend, isn't a competition either, so I'm willing to take it slow, but if they proposed a race then I'll ditch them in a second. If my girl wants to play risk, I am going to do my best to win unless she askes me to show her how I'm winning.

    They may want to have fun not being schooled, but I want to have fun giving it everything I have, the logical recourse is for me to do my best and for them to improve so I'm not winning easily. I'll help them get better if they ask, but their fun is ultimately in their hands, so if they wish to have fun playing with me they'd best improve.


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by cloudyeki on Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:10 pm

    Question Forum. How does one go about telling you they don't want to fight you in-game?


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:23 pm

    Message me, I don't attack if they don't move and hiding while they do so is alwas an option, or run, I only chase people down if they fight before they flee or if they have a phantom. Google will give me the gist of their message if its not in english or japanese.

    If I don't want to fight someone I tell them so, either before they get to me or just after the fight, in whatever language their profile says they speek. Google again.

    Its not a perfect system, but its the best available to me. If they don't think to tell me what they want, I cannot be held responsible for not complying, and that I care at all is a courtesy I don't have to offer. (most players I've seen arn't as nice)


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by DarkW17 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:56 pm

    I get what your saying and I don't disagree man it is insulting to assume you are more skilled than anyone of course....that is why I treat everyone I encounter the same!

    However if I am hosting the forest and the same invader keeps coming I don't enjoy Owning him time after time to the point of making him rage quit...I also am not going to show him disrespect by fighting him half assed...I simply won't take advantge of a buff that doubles my weapons AR for instance...that's not fighting him with less skill its giving him more lvl playing field were he could compete and learn instead of just getting destroyed!


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by Jansports on Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:59 pm

    There are a few points I feel I must make.

    Akuma (specifically Turbo Akuma) is a very very special case. He was a boss character, and was literally designed to be the best. His overwhelming advantage in every matchup was intentional from the developers, what was unintentional was the players ability to pick him. Akuma's ban from the competitive scene is not the norm, it's the exception. (Just ask Sirlin how he feels about bans, you'll no doubt get a rant about "only game breaking glitches" and when he says game breaking he means glitches that literally stop the game working, freezes, lock ups ect.)

    Another aside. Arcade etiquette is something people have to experience to understand. The only way you get to keep playing is if you win. Everyone who pops a quarter in that machine *has* to be taken as a threat or else you can end up on the wrong side of a 30 minute wait to play your favourite game again.

    Statistically people think that Fox has the best overall matchups in Smash bros. melee. However many people also consider the best player in the world Armada, and he plays Peach who, though she's moved up a bit literally because of Armada, was barely floating around top 5. I get into a hard to explain argument with my friends who competitively play smash about platforms, basically everyone says they're good, they give you options. I think none of those extra options are really meaningful. So I don't really go on them as much as most other shiek players, something I have in common with the best american shiek player.

    through and through before the dlc I believed the literal best build was Velka's MLGS 2Wog1TwoP MoM+3giants. Did I use it? You betcha! Did I use other builds? Oh yes. A straight Mura buff build, variations of Dex Pyro. A shirtless BKGA fast roller. a Claymore/CompBow pure quality. I even REALLY REALLY tried to make Sunlight Spear work in pvp.(In the end I did more with my occult bow than with the miracle) What I'm getting at is fundamentally I feel playing to win is something that happens at various stages. Deciding to hit 53 poise, thats a decision made specifically to increase your chances of winning a fight. Not using the MSGS on a dex/fai build is another, that weapon would swing like a noodle because you don't have any str investment. Noone takes Divine weapons into PvP on a 44INT sorcery build, because Enchanted will be literally the same weapon and way more damage.

    That particular phase is probably most analogous to character select in a fighting game. Cloud plays Jin Kisaragi, I know I've seen Hakumen in a signature on these forums. I personally would pick Lambda11 or Nu13. And I would guess (correctly) we all are trying to do our best to win the match we're faced with. In DkS not everyone will pick Velka's MLGS, some are gonna go Dex pyro, or STR/FAI. Even among these builds some Dex users will use a Katana, others the Great Scythe, and some others the BSS or SKS. DGM is a great STR option, I would take the BKGA, and some people prefer the MSGS.

    At this point I would, safely, state that player preference does not have an overbearing effect on playing to win. If someone is mashing r1 into you with a falchion/katana would you set up parry? They whiff an unlocked Gscythe jump attack do you punish that mistake? With a backstab? Would you shoot someone in the face with an arrow/bolt if they were casting fire tempest?

    The unfortunate truth is that people make mistakes. In DkS pvp these mistakes often get punished. After all if noone made a mistake ever noone would ever take damage. Capitalizing on someone else's mistake is the very nature of DkS pvp. I will do whatever I can when I can to do so. And if I didn't how would my opponent even realize he just made a mistake? Specifically NOT punishing a mistake made by an opponent is patronizing, insulting even. It's akin to saying "You are so far beneath me and/or I am not taking this seriously enough to even warrant proper play". Yes new players will make more mistakes, which hopefully they learn from and grow as players. Dropping a buff, or lightening your armor will in the end only teach bad habits. If you could have SLB on but have resin / no buff instead your opponent is gauging how much damage a person is capable of doing incorrectly. When he next runs into someone with a glowing katana and he estimates he can trade a hit for an advantage he will be sorely suprised when he takes much more damage than he expected. dropping off armor you'd normally wear is similar, the newer learning player will overestimate his damage and his potential to stagger, meaning the decisions he makes against a fully armored opponent will be skewed, and what would have been a great idea (stun this fool) turns into a terrible one (oh god why does that glowing sword hurt so much and why wont this guy stumble)
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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by cloudyeki on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:09 am

    +1 to you Jan

    A lil off-topic, in CT I never spammed Ice car, which alot of people saw as cheap. I just did what I always do, exploit mistakes and use I-frames to cover my own big grin


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by Jansports on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:12 am

    What kind of car is the ice car? It's a Nii-San. (this joke made no sense to a lot of people)
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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:14 am

    I do. Building and gear/spell selection is also a skill, I'm not at my best if I'm excluding the assets built into the character. Not taking advantage of my available assets is just as bad as not taking advantage of my skill.


    If anything, outright refusing to give up when I continue to win is admirable, adapting and improvising to try and sneak a win is more admirable. If they rage quit its on them, they could be learning and adapting instead.

    The simplest solutions to buffing are to turtle or run. Irritating though they may be, it doesn't take any great skill to outlast a buff, especially if one is the invvader and doesn't need to worry about mobs. If they cannot discover how to avoid it themselves and don't think to ask for or find help either, they deserve to fall prey to it until they do. (i pvp mostly at 80 so I don't buff much but thats not the point, I would if it was an option for the build.)



    Edit: Ninjad by Jan. Get out of my head man. Its creepy, lol.


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    Forum Pirate
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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:17 am

    Lol. That joke took a second, i read it as brother like 12 times before it clicked


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    cloudyeki
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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by cloudyeki on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:21 am

    This'll help



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    DarkW17
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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

    Post by DarkW17 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:22 am

    Ya Jan I don't disagree with you and don't get me wrong please I give everyone I fight hell and punish EVERY mistake they make...missed that jump attack you get bsd just as I would of course!

    Trust me I make no illusions of my play style I can be as ruthless or more so than yourself....like in the tourney i was bored waiting and went out and vaded red buffed dmb on my msgs and used the hornets ring...just destroyed questers I am a evil darkwraith I am not ashamed of that!

    I just draw the line at griefing someone over and over and over again....if I invade you and your phantoms and destroyed you all for me its 'okay I gotcha who's next'...if I get the same guy I BC out upon seeing the tag...its my right to invade and do whatever I want any way I want to....but I'm not going to keep doing it over and over just beacause I can!

    Anyways that's why I don't invade as much as I used to everyone gets all salty...I stick to dueling friends and hanging out in the forest....then I can do what ever I want and not feel bad!


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    Re: Sirlin Playing To Win

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