Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:03 pm

    bmurn wrote:I play games for one reason. I enjoy them and the sense of satisfaction I receive in completing them is a part of that enjoyment. Darksouls provided a great sense of satisfaction. The sense of satisfaction is not contingent on other people's abilities or inabilities to achieve the same results.

    Just because, in the opinions expresed by others in this thread, no game has managed to reach a wider audience and maintained its integrity does not mean that it cannot be done.

    The fact that games rarely do hold their integrity is entirely the reason why From should stick to their core, current base. Why do people insist on repeating others mistakes in the video games industry?


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by carlucio on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:04 pm

    bmurn wrote:I play games for one reason. I enjoy them and the sense of satisfaction I receive in completing them is a part of that enjoyment. Darksouls provided a great sense of satisfaction. The sense of satisfaction is not contingent on other people's abilities or inabilities to achieve the same results.

    Just because, in the opinions expresed by others in this thread, no game has managed to reach a wider audience and maintained its integrity does not mean that it cannot be done.

    It can't be done, statistics are shouting.
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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:06 pm

    Its not being elietist for its own sake, its being elietist because we like hard games, and very few modern games are even remotely challenging or make the slightest attempt to punish failure.

    If you want to make games for a wider audience, go right ahead, I have no problem with that. If you want to water down core games like the soul series to appeal to a wider audience, I now have a problem. Even the addition of an easy mode would cost time and money better spent on refining the game itself.

    Its not that I would hate it if it became popular, its that the changes that would likely be necessary to make it popular would ruin the series for me by stripping it of the things I liked. Mass effect is an excellent example of this, as is dragon age 2, ninja gaiden, fable, the wii, need for speed underground, undercover and the run, final fantasy 12.

    These games were all ruined by attempts to change the core of the series (which many fans could have immediatly pointed out were bad ideas in the first place) mostly in an effort to boost the profits of already successful series.



    Better example fellow snowboarder. Burton. Most burtons blow chunks compared to similarly priced boards. Know why? its cool to own a burton, so they can do less work and charge more for it. Thats what "mass appeal" does to games. Stick to the easy formula, requiring less time and money, and produce generally inferior products but charge full price.

    I know not all burtons suck, some are even really freaking awesome, but the company illustrates my point fairly well. I ride a 156 arbor element atm.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:11 pm

    I understand what you're saying Wade; that it opens the door, and there is danger in appealing to the mass audience, as they will then ultimately change what Dark Souls is.

    If they stick with the core of dark souls, and add an option for easy mode, that's something I can live with. If the mass comes in, and changes what appeals to the hard core players, then no, I would not be happy with that.

    If you are saying that's a 'for sure' thing then... I don't know what to say. I do think they can open the door a bit to increase revenues without changing the core of the game, but yes, you've made your point. I'm not sure if it's a for sure thing, but it's definitely a possibility. Is there no middle ground?

    Edit:
    @ForumPirate: I really enjoy difficult games as well, I don't play many video games, and this one is the very first video game other than Warcraft2 (back in 95) to really grab a hold of me. I'm against changing the game from how it is; but having an option of easy mode, as long as I have the 'true' experience, is something I"m completely OK with. There's danger, as Wade has pointed out, which is something I'm already aware of, but I do think there is middle ground in which they can keep the core of the game, while slapping on an Easier difficulty setting.

    Also, you don't need maps or a guide; that's what google is for.

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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Blaze1st on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:13 pm

    They should pursue a wider audience, but not with an easy mode. The MP features can still be evolved and as carlucio said have a bit more guidance up front for new players.

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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:17 pm

    I would not want a tutorial; I'm smart enough to figure this game out by myself. Played it without the patch and offline until I beat it, and man, that was hard. Couldn't grind bosses, no PvP, no clues. I missed a lot of secrets (like the bonfire outside the forest), I didn't build correctly and had to restart twice, I upgrade a bunch of weapons by a little bit... tons of mistakes. But I loved all of it, as I felt as others have said, a lot of pride in completing such a hard game by myself. The Gargoyles were by far my hardest challenge (just understanding the mechanics enough to beat them). I must have died 20 times.

    Something that explains the mechanics a bit more would be great though. However, I wonder if in patches when they tweak things if they'd always have to change the documentation? That would be a pain in the a**.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by callipygias on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:22 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote: very few modern games are even remotely challenging or make the slightest attempt to punish failure.
    Just to play Devil's Advocate, that's not true. The other games that are ferociously difficult simply have different difficulty settings. Even the famous button-masher God of War 3 is INFINITELY challenging if you start the game on Chaos Mode.

    This is why From won't make an easy setting. People would use it. You can talk about putting trophy, gear, or even content limitations on the game, but it doesn't matter. Players will learn the game in normal mode, then move on to the more difficult. Even if you don't think this would ruin the Dark Souls experience, you have to admit it would drastically change it.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by carlucio on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:26 pm

    We should make a listt of weird things on Souls mechanics and send to From, that would make begginers less alienated and would not change the series.

    - A weird thing is dex influencing cast speed, it appears to only make difference just at 45 dex, looks more like a bug than a real bonus.

    - Magic adjustment also should be turned into something more simple to understand.

    -Every skill should show its damage and durations on the description.

    It was just a example, we could make a much better list and send them as feedback of what would help begginers.


    Last edited by carlucio on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:28 pm

    It would change it for other people; not for me. Just as I never have used the drake sword, and normally don't take the master key. Because gunning and grabbing awesome gear early dilutes my experience.

    I don't do any glitches, and I don't use any weapons some drops me to 'help' me early. Because all those things ruin the experience. I also don't give anyone powerful drops; I'll give them level appropriate things, like 2 shards in the burg/parish, or a +2/+3 weapon. Something that can assist, but not radically change their experience. I also don't charge ahead killing everything, I'm their wingman in coop, and they lead the charge, and I don't save them from traps, because it's all part of the experience that is Dark Souls.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by SlakeMoth on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:29 pm

    First of all, I'm not an elite player, I am an average player and I'm on newgame+ with one character and at the Kiln with my second. If I can do it, then anyone can IF they're prepared to keep trying because, actually Dark Souls and Demon Souls before it are not hard games in that they're unfair, they're hard games because they demand effort from the player in order to succeed. Take that away and what have you got? Not a Souls game that's for sure.

    I'm all for From succeeding but this is not the route to go down. The Souls games are unique in that they are gaining a wider audience mainly by word of mouth. One website I visit every day is gamecentral@metro.co.uk and they're still getting letters about this game nearly twelve months after launch every week. There are not many games that generate that amount of interest 12 months after release.
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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by carlucio on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:34 pm

    http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2921965

    Read this, don't you think it's awesome when COD players are kicked out like that?


    Last edited by carlucio on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:34 pm

    I sail through most games I play on every difficulty. I may die on occasion, but the lack of a penalty for death renders such deaths meaningless.

    I don't know what games you've been playing, but the first thing I do when I start most modern games is max the difficulty, fail until I get the basics, then coast through the game.

    IMO more games should exclude difficulty settings. Make the game as it was ment to be experienced and tell everyone who doesn't like it to go fly a kite, I have better experiences when its done that way. (even when the game is easy)

    The reason I'm against the easy difficulty in the soul series is because the series is founded on struggle and failure, and the tremendous sense of accomplishment at overcoming these challenges.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by bmurn on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:38 pm

    Wade_Wilson wrote:

    The fact that games rarely do hold their integrity is entirely the reason why From should stick to their core, current base. Why do people insist on repeating others mistakes in the video games industry?

    I think that is a very valid point, but perhaps From has some unique ideas on how a game could maintain its integrity. Ultimately, it is up to them as to how to go about this. They can chase the masses and believe that they can do it better than others before them or they can maintain their niche and continue to capture that core audience. In reality this is not an either or. It is a continuum. I will use an example of something I like.

    There are the mega brewers, Budweiser, Miller, etc. and then there are the small craft brews, Great Lakes Brewing, Left Hand, Lauganitas, etc. The mega brews are clearly focused on appealing to as large an audience as possible. While the craft brewers are focusing on a core audience that appreciates many different aspects of beer. Again it is not always one or the other. There are now many brewers that have reached a much wider audience while still maintaining their integrity. Sam Adams, Sierra Nevada, Goose Island. Many of these did not add a light beer (easy mode) but rather somehow created more appeal for threir product.

    I guess what I am saying is there is more than one way to drink a beer, so to assume all appeals to a wider audience are going to result in failure is not a safe assumption. Perhaps the menatlity of the wider audience will be shifted as opposed to the "integrity" of the game.

    This argument vears off a little from the easy mode discussion, but again I just wanted to make a point about past failures not guaranteeing that it cannot be done.

    - Apologies to those that are not from the US and may not recognize the names used in the poorly contructed analogy. I promise that I have personally tasted all of the aforementioned products and will vouch for their integrity and functionality.
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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:41 pm

    carlucio wrote:http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2921965

    Read this, don't you think it's awesome when COD players are kicked out like that?

    Oh lord, he complained about "artificial difficulty" in the undead burg. Thanks for the laugh.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by JaffaCakes on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:52 pm

    There need not be difficulty modes, as the game uses organic difficulty. Or dynamic, if you will. It changes based on what level you are, what equipment, what spells, and so on and so forth. If you can get a friend to drop you an upgraded weapon (lightning, for example), and some soul items, you are already on what equates to easy-medium difficulty. Most enemies will go down in a hit, and you can level up. Same goes for making it harder. Not levelling up, using low damage weapons and the likes. Like I said, no need for difficulty modes in a game like this.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by carlucio on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:54 pm

    Wade_Wilson wrote:
    carlucio wrote:http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2921965

    Read this, don't you think it's awesome when COD players are kicked out like that?

    Oh lord, he complained about "artificial difficulty" in the undead burg. Thanks for the laugh.

    Yep, also said the game has not story because it's not vomited on his face like in other mainstreams games, that post shows what we are saying here, its impossible to please everybody, if you try to do that you will end pleasing no one.

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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Blaze1st on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:17 pm

    There is already a tutorial and it does its job well enough. My only criticism is that it doesn't start with a welcome screen telling you to read the messages (as far as I remember, it's been over 100 hours of play time since then).

    The game manual however is pathetic, contains pad layout, a half arsed guide to character creation and then the only vaguely useful part which explains some of the game concepts albeit in too little detail.

    They should consider an expanded online manual. It doesn't need to go into the detail of a wiki but something more substantial than what was originally packaged.

    I would also like to see some tweaks to the red soapstone dictionaries. New words and phrases (summon, help, farm, Good ****, Kill ****) for example, the ability to string two or three messages even so maybe you could write something like: Imminent trap try rolling.

    Finally there is so much they can add to MP to attract people with minimal impact to elitist players. My only concern would be they need to carefully consider how to best implement it to ensure PvE players can still get a helping hand. I'm thinking a separate MP mode where you export a character to into a certain"tier" then queue for boss events where people currently in that area get a few minutes to decide if they want to join in to try to clear that boss. MP mode players can get some new meaningful content to spend their souls on to go play their other MP modes and PvE players still get a well populated world, even better populated if successful.
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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Dragon Slayer Ornstein on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:29 pm

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:Created this topic to not derail the original thread posted as a poll to see whether people want easy mode or not.

    The vast majority are saying "No" to easy mode. From the responses, I gather it is some form of elitism; that this is a game only 'hardcore' people can beat, and it elevates them as some kind of elite player of the video game world by beating it.

    Honestly, if it opens more cash flows into FROM I don't see an issue. I love this game so much, that I want to give FROM every chance at making a 3rd installment. Making a work of art, or having a statement is great, but unless it gets enough players to make it profitable to the point of making another game, that's not good enough.

    So, because I think it would open up more revenue streams into the game, and give a better chance at a trilogy, I am all for it. I can still play my hard as heck game, and still get the same PvP. What do I care if someone had an easier time? As the Wii sales show, there are many, many casual gamers, and I don't think I'm 'better' than them because they don't devote as many hours to a video game as I do.

    So can people give a measured, well reasoned response as to why a no easy mode? Looking forward to it!

    The Souls series thrives on its difficulty (among many other things), its somewhat steep learning curve and the need for some knowledge, exploration and a bit of skill.

    let's be honest, if you're a new player, once you get PAST that initial learning curve and use some brainpower, the game is pretty easy, really.

    It's a very unique game in many aspects, INCLUDING its difficulty and how "dynamic" it is, I'm totally against adding an "Easy" difficulty setting, sorry, but the games are absolutely amazing as they are, especially Dark Souls.

    ENB went into *great* detail on this topic, here's the video link...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTXjoe4kKrU&feature=g-all-u


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by passivefamiliar on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:04 pm

    I play most other games on easy, because you fail and just repeat till you get it right. No penalty. Souls games make you afraid to die, afraid to lose your souls. Im not so high and mighty as to think it matters. I just dont want them to ruin the core of the game. Its so perfect, punishment for failure ratio. Easy mode would be ok i guess if they keep the rest seperate and pure. Bring atlus back to work with it.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Rifter7 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:36 pm

    i honestly don't care, i always pick the hardest difficulty on all games and mystery souls will be no different.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by carlucio on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:22 pm

    ENB said what i've been saying, they must improve the tutorials before thinking about levels of difficulty, if they don't want intelligence to improve pyromancies, shout it to the players, make it clear since the beggining, because it's so logical to stack intelligence as a "mage", it's what players do in every rpg.
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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:34 pm

    Slarg232 wrote:Look no further than Ninja Gaiden. They wanted to make it easier for people with the third one, as well...
    +1. I'm a huge NG fanatic. I can't tell you how disappointed with what happened in NG3. Really really sad. A franchise that was known for unrelenting difficulty . . . sad


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:40 pm

    The thing is mark, the entirety of souls gameplay hinges on the difficulty of it. Without difficulty of heavy hitting foes things like stamina management, poise levels and even the necessity of being careful just get thrown out the window. Without the difficulty of having to find your way with very little guidance you won't have the same satisfaction upon arriving somewhere.

    I agree that perhaps FROM could do more to explain things like non scaling magic catalysts or weapon upgrade system, but other than that there's just no need to review the difficulty. They'd have to change the entire feel of the souls series to do that. The entire ethos of the game is driven by difficulty, from the corny 'you defeated' messages that flash up post boss to limited system of magic and healing items.

    Fact is if they changed the difficulty, it wouldn't be the souls series any more, but something entirely different.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by ublug on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:45 pm

    I don't find the souls games 'hard', but would rather describe them as fair, challenging, punishing and confusing. The games will prove a challenge, even after watching a walkthrough or reading a step-by-step guide. This is also some of the features that has given the games their reputation, built the community, and made the wikis almost mandatory. Watering the series down at this point will only leave a bitter taste among the current 'followers', why not make another more accessible and easy game for the masses instead of risking an established franchise? To quote a comment I read on another forum: "Dark Souls - Prepare to Live!"

    I have been planning to do a post related to the difficulty of the games for a while, something along the lines of "are they slowly dumbing down the soul series?", but this news kind of beat me to it. From the top of my head: With Dark Souls they introduced mid-level checkpoints, possibility to partially downgrade weapons and a simplification of the forge process in general, no penalty for playing the game hollow (without being invaded), no carry limit. The game patches have also made the game easier: no stacking curse, able to target fog ring users, no infinite spawning of mosquitoes, less aggro range for bounding demons, etc.
    All the changes follows a pattern, as in none of them makes the game any harder. If the trend continues the next game will be easier, even without an easy mode.
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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:56 pm

    ublug wrote:I have been planning to do a post related to the difficulty of the games for a while, something along the lines of "are they slowly dumbing down the soul series?", but this news kind of beat me to it. From the top of my head: With Dark Souls they introduced mid-level checkpoints, possibility to partially downgrade weapons and a simplification of the forge process in general, no penalty for playing the game hollow (without being invaded), no carry limit. The game patches have also made the game easier: no stacking curse, able to target fog ring users, no infinite spawning of mosquitoes, less aggro range for bounding demons, etc.
    All the changes follows a pattern, as in none of them makes the game any harder. If the trend continues the next game will be easier, even without an easy mode.

    I've never stopped to think about this, but it's extremely true. hell they even increased the soul drops by 2 times minimum on most enemies post patch 1.05, not allowing invaders to kill off important foes or npcs this game.. You don't realise much the was they have been doing it, slowly adding in features that cause the series to become less difficult..

    Though I have to disagree that there have been no changes to make the game harder. The significant changes i can think of easily are the magic uses system and the limited healing item system are two major changes and the fact that invasion items are accessible right from the start of NG if you know how to get them.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

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      Current date/time is Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:35 am