Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

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    Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:27 pm

    Created this topic to not derail the original thread posted as a poll to see whether people want easy mode or not.

    The vast majority are saying "No" to easy mode. From the responses, I gather it is some form of elitism; that this is a game only 'hardcore' people can beat, and it elevates them as some kind of elite player of the video game world by beating it.

    Honestly, if it opens more cash flows into FROM I don't see an issue. I love this game so much, that I want to give FROM every chance at making a 3rd installment. Making a work of art, or having a statement is great, but unless it gets enough players to make it profitable to the point of making another game, that's not good enough.

    So, because I think it would open up more revenue streams into the game, and give a better chance at a trilogy, I am all for it. I can still play my hard as heck game, and still get the same PvP. What do I care if someone had an easier time? As the Wii sales show, there are many, many casual gamers, and I don't think I'm 'better' than them because they don't devote as many hours to a video game as I do.

    So can people give a measured, well reasoned response as to why a no easy mode? Looking forward to it!


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by TehInfamousAmos on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:32 pm

    The satisfaction is achieved due to the difficulty. If that is wrecked it is satisfying for noone.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Slarg232 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:36 pm

    Look no further than Ninja Gaiden. They wanted to make it easier for people with the third one, as well...


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:40 pm

    Of course it's elitism. Why else do you think we play the game! The satisfaction of beating it and knowing there are many others who cannot. If you think there's something wrong with elitism, then you're in the wrong place.

    Another thing to remember is casualisation always corrupts. Mass Effect, The Elder Scrolls, it doesn't matter what game, when it tries to appeal to a wider audience it flat out fails. Namco Bandai will see improved sales and think, "Hmm, casuals really enjoy the game, let's make From focus on this new casual fanbase for loads emone!"


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:41 pm

    So you beating it on the same difficulty level, your enjoyment would be dampened by someone beating it on an easier level? How is that different then people getting dropped a lightning +x weapon, or the people that just use this forum to get all the info they want instead of figuring it out themselves? Both reduce the difficulty, but a large margin.

    And... they're in it for the money. They have to be. Everyone wants to make a piece of art that can be admired for it's virtue, but unless it pays the bills, it won't be made. Not unless someone doesn't care about their own money.


    Last edited by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by callipygias on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:41 pm

    Unless the director has changed there is no way there's anything to this rumor. I don't get the feeling that this Miyazaki guy has the slightest interest in making an easy Souls game.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by callipygias on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:44 pm

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:people getting dropped a lightning +x weapon, or the people that just use this forum to get all the info they want instead of figuring it out themselves? Both reduce the difficulty, but a large margin.
    That example just reinforces the idea that if people can make a game easier, they will. People would play the easy mode, that's why From wouldn't do it.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:47 pm

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:So you beating it on the same difficulty level, your enjoyment would be dampened by someone beating it on an easier level? How is that different then people getting dropped a lightning +x weapon, or the people that just use this forum to get all the info they want instead of figuring it out themselves? Both reduce the difficulty, but a large margin.

    And... they're in it for the money. They have to be. Everyone wants to make a piece of art that can be admired for it's virtue, but unless it pays the bills, it won't be made. Not unless someone doesn't care about their own money.

    There's a big difference in the examples you provided. The BB glitch is an exploit, an easy mode difficulty is planned. The latter shows a shift in thinking by the developer, a shift that could potentially spoil the formula that I've come to know and love. And yes, it would spoil my fun, because I know the developer pandered to a wider audience instead of fine tuning the game for me, the original fan, supporter and player. Do you think casuals will play this game even if there was an easy mode? Hell no! Casuals go after call of duty and skyrim, not the souls games. Would you really want dev resources going towards a feature that would be utterly pointless? As I said in a previous thread, people don't play the souls games for epic graphix or AAA blockbuster storylines. They play it for the challenge.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by FruitPunchNinja on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:52 pm

    Mark i don't think you realize just how much they would have to change in order for it to be all that much easier. Sure they could make it so so you just take barely any damage, but even then you would get staggered ext. My point is they would have to dumb down a lot of the games core mechanics in order for it to be "easy". Also it would obviously effect how the online works, if they do implement an easy mode i think it should be offline and there should be at least 5-10 trophies that require you to be playing on the highest difficulty. I honestly wish there were trophies now that required more then just grinding through the game, like beating the last boss under a certain level.
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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Opedak on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:55 pm

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:So you beating it on the same difficulty level, your enjoyment would be dampened by someone beating it on an easier level? How is that different then people getting dropped a lightning +x weapon, or the people that just use this forum to get all the info they want instead of figuring it out themselves? Both reduce the difficulty, but a large margin.

    And... they're in it for the money. They have to be. Everyone wants to make a piece of art that can be admired for it's virtue, but unless it pays the bills, it won't be made. Not unless someone doesn't care about their own money.

    The reason people don't want it, is because theres such a thing as going to far
    Look at the fable series. The first game wasn't that hard at all. It was an average game.
    Then the second game came out, and it seemed a little shorter, but the combat was better, and magic and guns were useful
    Then the third one came out. The game was short, Magic was, hold down button then win, making combat boring. All that cool little NPC interaction was cut down to almost nothing.
    Hell, even the morale choices that made Fable Fable were almost gone entirly. instead replaced with
    Bad guy choice gets more cash
    Good guy choice gets more work and grinding.
    Its not about making the game easy for more people to make money
    Its changing the game so much that you lose what the games really about.
    And thats why there should never be an option to chose how hard a Souls game is thats just an option in a menu that says "Easy or Hard?"
    Because that first time, the time where you die ten times to a boss before ever beating it, is what makes you play the game again and again.
    Thats why people like me have 300 hours in this game. It got us early with it core aspect.
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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Rifter7 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:04 pm

    only 300?


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:12 pm

    I don't want mass appeal in most games.

    If every game is made with mass appeal in mind, eventually we end up with essentially the same game, under 45 different names, because that game sells the most.

    I understand that its a buisness, but as a buisness is it not good to inspire loyalty in your consumers by giving them what they want? Most video games are niche things. If you exit the niche, you lose the reason the origional players bought it in the first place. Attempting to split the focus is even worse, because that takes more time and money to do properly, which companies quite often can't or won't spend, leaving both sides unhappy with the product.

    It may start as just an easy mode, but its a slippery slope and its one I've watched many companies fall down.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Seignar on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:22 pm

    Do you know why I like Dark Souls over most other games? Because, difficulty gave me challenge that no other game could fairly provide. I don't want a Hell&Hell mode where I die in 1 hit. I want something that is fairly testing my skill in various aspects.

    The game's difficulty is what makes it. No, seriously, it is. Why would we have shields if we took little damage? Why should we look for openings if we could easily spam attack and kill? Why wouldn't we test our luck and take a risk if we lost nothing by death? How can we overcome our fear if we have no fear? How can we say "YATTA!" if it was easy? That is what makes Dark Souls.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by oregonav8r on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:35 pm

    Personally I am against an easy mode. Granted, when I was on my first playthrough I was wishing for one, but I was stubborn enough to keep trying and eventually persevered. And the satisfaction achieved was incredible.

    Catering to casuals is what makes Modern Warfare 3 so stale and boring. I have the game, but I only play it with a few select online friends since they like it. I personally can't stand it, its dull and anyone can pick it up and own on it their first day if they know how to hide in a corner holding L1.

    Someone also mentioned Skyrim in this topic so I gotta give my two cents there...I might get some flame for this but I will say it anyways, I think Skyrim is a great game. Is it better than Dark Souls? Absolutely not. I do think the two games are remarkably different though, and I don't think its really fare to compare the two of them directly. Skyrim is more about open world exploring, storytelling, and NPC interaction. Whereas Dark Souls is a rather barren, lonely world with no one to talk to, but instead you have the entire world out to kill you and make you quit...it's more of a brutal survival kind of game. With all that said though, I got both Skyrim and Dark Souls at the same time...took me a while before I tried Dark Souls and got hooked on it, but now that's happened and I rarely touch Skyrim anymore now.

    If they do want to put an easy mode on Dark Souls (or a future version), they should put some penalties on the people playing it...maybe not as many trophies, only allow weapon upgrades to a certain point, fewer souls dropped from enemies (same requirement to level up though)...those are just a few of my ideas. I'd hate to see them make it TOO easy just to make money, because that's how a good game gets ruined. Either way, I'd still play the game on the higher difficulty.
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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by carlucio on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:39 pm

    I've been spreading around the web how awesome this game is, but now i'm feeling cheated, i see no problem about being elitist, that's a important part of the enjoyment for me, also, as others have saying, casualization always corrupt games, just look at Ninja gaiden, Resident evil, Dragon Age, Mass effect and many other, you want to see bad games from From? i don't.


    Last edited by carlucio on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by dianaduh on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:40 pm

    I think there are games for every kind of player, so people can choose what type of game they want to play.
    So imagine, if most people like easy games, there'll only be easy games for us, those who don't like would just have to deal with it.
    I agree that it's interesting for them to please most of the gamers, but this is something I think would be out of souls series essence.

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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:42 pm

    Apple used to be a niche computer. Only uber geeks and elites would buy apples. Do you think it was a bad idea for them to mass market?

    I think its a terrible thing to be elite for elitist sake. If the music I like became really popular and main stream, would I stop liking it? I would not. But I know people that would, because it is now 'popular' and 'mainstream' and they define themselves from not being mainstream.

    I hope this is not the Dark Souls community.

    I do not envision their easy mode to be a script rewrite; I imagine they have a script for each monster and that it works on probabilities. These probabilities can be easily adjusted, as could Damage taken/received. Normally it is built in to be easily changed, as it needs to be for play testing.

    @FruitPunchNinja: I have worked in software development as a lead for a decade. I am not sure what your background on software is, but please explain why it would be so difficult to recompile dark souls with an added menu option and a couple of if/case statements to point to different scripts for enemies and a different multiplier for damage.

    If the are talking about maps, pointers on where to go, log book for information, etc, etc those are larger changes but still doable.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:45 pm

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:Apple used to be a niche computer. Only uber geeks and elites would buy apples. Do you think it was a bad idea for them to mass market?

    I think its a terrible thing to be elite for elitist sake. If the music I like became really popular and main stream, would I stop liking it? I would not. But I know people that would, because it is now 'popular' and 'mainstream' and they define themselves from not being mainstream.

    I hope this is not the Dark Souls community.

    I do not envision their easy mode to be a script rewrite; I imagine they have a script for each monster and that it works on probabilities. These probabilities can be easily adjusted, as could Damage taken/received. Normally it is built in to be easily changed, as it needs to be for play testing.

    @FruitPunchNinja: I have worked in software development as a lead for a decade. I am not sure what your background on software is, but please explain why it would be so difficult to recompile dark souls with an added menu option and a couple of if/case statements to point to different scripts for enemies and a different multiplier for damage.

    If the are talking about maps, pointers on where to go, log book for information, etc, etc those are larger changes but still doable.

    If you honestly think there is nothing wrong with a video game trying to reach a wider audience, then you don't know anything about the video game industry.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:49 pm

    Reaching a wider audience; now that's a broad statement.

    Advertising is meant to reach a wider audience. Dark souls has advertised. What's wrong with that? I think I know what you mean Wade, but I'm not going to put words in your mouth. Unless you actually mean that as a blanket statement, that all attempts to reach a wider audience are horrible in the game industry, in which case I heartily disagree. Otherwise, don't even release the game. Because it'd be a larger audience than the dev team. (tongue in cheek response... don't take it seriously, just explain what you mean)


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:52 pm

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:Reaching a wider audience; now that's a broad statement.

    Advertising is meant to reach a wider audience. Dark souls has advertised. What's wrong with that? I think I know what you mean Wade, but I'm not going to put words in your mouth. Unless you actually mean that as a blanket statement, that all attempts to reach a wider audience are horrible in the game industry, in which case I heartily disagree. Otherwise, don't even release the game. Because it'd be a larger audience than the dev team. (tongue in cheek response... don't take it seriously, just explain what you mean)

    Ah, but the advertising was designed to appeal to the more hardcore community.

    I'll try and explain my point of view with a question. What's your favourite hobby outside videogames?


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:53 pm

    My favourite hobby? Playing hockey. And snowboarding, although I now have moved cities and there's nothing decent to run around here...

    Before dark souls, I hadn't touched a video game in half a year.


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by carlucio on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:56 pm

    Souls series need better tutorials and more clear mechanics, that would help begginers a lot.

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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Blaze1st on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:58 pm

    From a financial standpoint, it's a good idea. Take WoW for example.

    From the point of view of player experience, it's a terrible idea. Take WoW for example.

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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:00 pm

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:My favourite hobby? Playing hockey. And snowboarding, although I now have moved cities and there's nothing decent to run around here...

    Before dark souls, I hadn't touched a video game in half a year.

    Oh, let's take hockey. Imagine if you turned up at your hockey rink, to find a group of furries and paedophiles getting kitted up. As it turns out the hockey rink decided to appeal to these two groups to make more money and now you have to play with them. Worse still, as time goes on you find the hockey rink favouring the furries and paedophiles over you since they apparently bring in more money. How do you feel?


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    Re: Why are people up in arms about "Easy" mode?

    Post by bmurn on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:00 pm

    I play games for one reason. I enjoy them and the sense of satisfaction I receive in completing them is a part of that enjoyment. Darksouls provided a great sense of satisfaction. The sense of satisfaction is not contingent on other people's abilities or inabilities to achieve the same results.

    Just because, in the opinions expresed by others in this thread, no game has managed to reach a wider audience and maintained its integrity does not mean that it cannot be done.

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