POV of a relative newbie

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    Forum Pirate
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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:46 pm

    Offensive? Pray tell. I pointed out the subjective nature of your arguement, the logical falicy of being elietist about not being elietist, and fualted the p2p system rather than backstabing for the percieved imbalance of the technique. I also explained my point of view on balance and told you that you may have whatever beliefs you wish.

    Where in there was the offense?


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Myztyrio on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:51 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:I disagree, I play sports for the same reason I play multiplayer in games. I want to win, and I want to work for it. I want my victory to be decided by skill and knowledge of the systems involved, and for my opponent to pull no punches in exploiting anything they can think of in an attempt to win within those systems.

    Cheap is a subjective term in this instance and has no place in a logical arguement.

    The developers can set whetever rules they wish, and I will abide or quit, same as with any sport. Wether or not is was their origional intention for the system to work as it did is irrelivant, as long as it works as it does one must deal accept it as a legitimate tactic or they only hurt their own enjoyment.

    If from didn't opt to put in such rules, bring it up with them or do as others have and make your own for organised events, but to expect anyone else to follow them outside of such events is folly and is setting ones self up for dissappointment and failure.

    Winning's a bonus, the purpose is to have fun. happy


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:01 pm

    Keep at it


    Anyways, Myzt, if I don't win at least 60% of the time I don't have any fun. They are one and the same to me, at least as far as direct competiton like dks is concerned. Call it what you will but I really hate to lose.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Jansports on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:56 pm

    If I could I would sit you people down in a room and calmly explain each others point of view, then explain you two will never agree.

    Forum and I are jerks. We find the most enjoyable thing about "activity" to be the competition and driving ourselves to win. Heck most anyone would agree, WINNING IS FUN. LOSING IS LESS FUN. Recently I lost a Bo3 to Wyrm, I had fun it was a good fight. Do I wish I could go back and win? OF COURSE.

    Now Backstabs. They exist. I would say the Need to exist. some things are quite difficult to counter-play without imploying backstabs as a form of punishment. I would almost never hit a Murakumo if not for backstabs. Spears are also commonly rollBSed, WotG spam can be frustrating as arrows bounce off and getting close at all is dangerous, but you can rollBS it.

    What most "new" players will find unfair is being backstabbed at all. It's a lot of damage and it doesn't FEEL like you can do anything about it. When in reality their mistake happened just a bit earlier. This disconnect between the mistake and the BS animation pychologically makes BS seem more unfair then it really is.

    Now Zackeeus. There are "rules" to dark souls. Simply put it's the games code, spamming wog BSing having a +5 chaos weapon before you kill Tarous Demon. (yes it's possible just start master key kill kellog and ceasless, suicide jump to collect the ember, farm the worms for chunks trade an upgraded pyroflame to snuggly for the slab) MOST people wont do this. But it's entirely possible.

    What you(and others) are doing are trying to impose a set of rules outside the game, based off how you feel about varying degrees of "fairness" Lag allows for some BSes that wouldn't otherwise happen you say? It also allows for various running attacks to have invisible extended hitboxes. It allows for my opponent to hit me when I clearly was in parry active frames as his attack made contact on my screen. I Do not think for a second Lag is intended by the devs, nor is it desirable. However it is real and it literally affects every aspect of pvp, rolls attacks, spells and yes BSes. If bsing due to lag is unfair but bsing without lag is okay then literally everything about DkS PvP is unfair, and that's a weak stance to take.

    I garuntee if you tried to learn how to not get backstabbed, in literally just a few hours you would notice you are getting BSed less then a quarter as often. And honestly you should HAVE TO.

    Fundamentally if a new player were to duel someone like Forum, Wyrm, Tolvo, myself they would probably feel helpless. And they should. The world isn't a magic place where everyone can win everything just because it's enjoyable. People have to expend effort. Forum grinds out a large number of fights, because for every 1 he losses he strives to win at least 2. Wyrm has spent more time swinging a Greatscythe than I think anyone else(at least lifehunt) and Man oh man does he land good dead angles. Tolvo's favourite build mid rolls, and despite what most would call a handicap it's scary to fight. These people SHOULD beat less experienced players.

    I know that sounded off topic, but it's not. Backstabs are part of the accumulated experience of DkS PvP. And everyone will lose to them until they have an understanding of how to stop them. I lost 40 some odd straight fights against the Mura before I figured out how to handle it's dead angles.

    Here I have to firmly agree with Forum, if new players are so unwilling to learn and improve the manner in which they play, then I am happier if they quit the game. Everyone was once a new player, and many people have gotten past that. It's not unfair in any way shape or form, that's just how things work
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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:00 pm

    Cheap is relative. The more you understand the mechanics of this game, the less cheap things become. Unfortunately, with the advanced level of gameplay that abounds, the learning curve can be quite steep.

    IMO, if you are constantly being beat by "cheap" tactics, don't get angry. Figure out why they beat you, improve on that, and get better. Sometimes, losses are more important than wins (even if the losses seem cheap).

    It takes a certain mentality to get to that point. New players have their work cut out for them, and it will be very frustrating, coming in this late in the game.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Tristan on Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:35 am

    Ah yes, let me and the click do battle.

    If I could I would sit you people down in a room and calmly explain each others point of view, then explain you two will never agree.
    I'm not entirely sure what your intention or motive is behind this statement.

    Forum and I are jerks. We find the most enjoyable thing about "activity" to be the competition and driving ourselves to win. Heck most anyone would agree, WINNING IS FUN. LOSING IS LESS FUN. Recently I lost a Bo3 to Wyrm, I had fun it was a good fight. Do I wish I could go back and win? OF COURSE
    I love responding to caps, it is so hard to see those lower case letters. This short paragragh is pretty much in rebuttle to Forum's statements without trying to be. Let me make it easier...

    "Recently I lost a Bo3 to Wyrm, I had fun it was a good fight."

    Ah yes, you contradicted his point and didn't even realize it. This statement is evidence enough that his darwinian outlook is not one that he should have. He can have it mind you but his theories basically impose unregulated gameplay on people that understand balannce is an issue in this game (remember this for later, as I intend to wrap this up).

    Now Backstabs. They exist. I would say the Need to exist. some things are quite difficult to counter-play without imploying backstabs as a form of punishment. I would almost never hit a Murakumo if not for backstabs. Spears are also commonly rollBSed, WotG spam can be frustrating as arrows bounce off and getting close at all is dangerous, but you can rollBS it.
    Yes, backstabs... They will exist, but I am pretty sure other rpg's and other Action rpg's don't require backstabs. With that moot point out of the way, I like backstabs. backstabs are pretty fun if balanced correctly. Don't you find that a murakumo has weak spots without backstabs? I find them all the time. Sometimes it just takes playing with the weapon to find its weak points, which new players usually won't have a problem with. Backstabs are definitely not required to counter any weapon/spell or armor in the game. I've backstabbed in DkS in PvP a total of maybe 15 times. That includes accidental backstabs. I've successfully played with a whip against Havel tanks. Backstabs aren't necessary. BACKSTABS AREN'T NECESSARY.

    What you(and others) are doing are trying to impose a set of rules outside the game, based off how you feel about varying degrees of "fairness" Lag allows for some BSes that wouldn't otherwise happen you say? It also allows for various running attacks to have invisible extended hitboxes. It allows for my opponent to hit me when I clearly was in parry active frames as his attack made contact on my screen. I Do not think for a second Lag is intended by the devs, nor is it desirable. However it is real and it literally affects every aspect of pvp, rolls attacks, spells and yes BSes. If bsing due to lag is unfair but bsing without lag is okay then literally everything about DkS PvP is unfair, and that's a weak stance to take.
    I didn't bother arguing with Forum on this but, I will humor you. Actually first off who imposed any new rules in this thread? Who said you can't ever be a **** in DkS ever again, and that is the new rule? We are saying that the balance of the game isn't quite lining up and it should be addressed before the population dwindles. Forum is saying "to hell with balance and *** quitters I am boss." That's a paraphrase. Frankly that is not only rude and offensive, it promotes degradation of the game's population. I surely don't want people to quit playing this game because a few mishaps in the design. Yes lag can happen with almost any action one takes, I can agree to that. What I have a hard time believing is that it is guaranteed to happen every time. How or why do I think this way? I play the game A LOT! Your argument in this case is a fallacy of the greatest kind. It is so simple that if you just look at the backstabs in PvE you can disregard what you've said. If I can backstab a soldier in the burg from 5 feet away and a forest npc backstab me from 10ft it has more to do with the mechanic or framerate than lag. Oh but tristan, I haven't ever seen that before! Yeah, a tree still makes a sound when it falls and no one is close enough to hear it.

    I garuntee if you tried to learn how to not get backstabbed, in literally just a few hours you would notice you are getting BSed less then a quarter as often. And honestly you should HAVE TO.
    Okay, I tell you what... When you show me video proof of reading a teleporting locked animation let me know. I might try my hand at this killing a goat with my mind thing. So, now I "HAVE TO" be able to kill a goat with my psyonic powers? Okay, where is Professor X when you need him? Dammit! Maybe if I start up the X signal he may fly his X-wing out and teach me to be an X man! Yeah! totally!Sleep

    Fundamentally if a new player were to duel someone like Forum, Wyrm, Tolvo, myself they would probably feel helpless. And they should. The world isn't a magic place where everyone can win everything just because it's enjoyable. People have to expend effort.
    Which ones felt the ego boost off of that one? I could feel it pulsating in the ground from here. Here being not targeted by your statement. Expending effort lol! How many new players do you think don't spend effort? I am curious because as a new player once it took plenty of effort just to get passed certain bosses and still as a vet it takes a **** ton of effort for some bosses. We've all been stumped and stomped before, but that isn't what the topic is about.

    Here I have to firmly agree with Forum, if new players are so unwilling to learn and improve the manner in which they play, then I am happier if they quit the game. Everyone was once a new player, and many people have gotten past that. It's not unfair in any way shape or form, that's just how things work
    Now new players are unwilling to rise above certain skill levels? I would just like to say that if any veteran player expects anyone, new or old, to kill a goat with special mind probing powers?.. Don't be afraid to quit. You probably don't want to be associated with that community anyway. I applaud your resolve to just walk away from them and the goats.

    To wrap it up, since I told you I would i'd like to reitterate a few points.

    My PoV- The game is unbalanced and offers little reward or incentive to keep on playing in it's current state. it needs minor revision and intelligent understanding of balance.

    Forum's PoV- Play your cards or gtfo.

    You may first read my suggestion and think I am imposing on the original version of the game, but intentions and retractions say otherwise. However, telling new players to mind *** a teleporting goat to overcome your frustrations is a bit more imposing in my honest opinion. It just sounds like your saying "I did it the wrong way, so he has to as well."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw

    Let the inquisition comence...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqgZnvfJ9Jg


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by reim0027 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:46 am

    Ok. Enough of this. We have had many topics discussing this and all that happens is bickering.

    zack - I hear you. Unfortunately, you've stumbled across a real hot button item.



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