POV of a relative newbie

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    POV of a relative newbie

    Post by zackeeus on Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:56 pm

    Hi All. First time poster, uh, long-timer reader.

    It seems like the majority of active players and forum posters are super experienced players, so I would like to offer up my point of view on one particularly contentious issue. I would describe myself as a relative newbie, but I am a big fan of both DS games. Why do players like me matter? Because, if you like PvP, new players are like young taxpayers to seniors. We provide the new blood and tax dollars that keep the infrastructure going (and your Social Security checks arriving)!

    I'm around SL 120 now but have been trying to PvP since level 40-50. So--a lot! I've leveled up intelligently, and have ground (or is it "grinded") my way to fully upgraded Elite Knight Armor, full upgraded pyromancy (upgraded glove) and some pretty good weapons including lightning Zwei+3, GS of Art+5 and a lightning washing pole+4.

    As many have remarked, 95% of the time I'm trying to have some PvP fun, I find myself being unfairly backstabbed. I'm facing one way, and a nano-second later I'm turned 180 degrees with giant f*ing sword sticking out of my sternum.

    Granted, I'm not a great player, so some of these times, I've had it coming. But more often than not, it's due to the all-too-common exploitive playing style of my opponent. So...for a mid-level player (in terms of experience at least), what are the best ways to overcome these challenges? (And please don't say internet connection, because mine is solid!)

    Second point to make is that this problem WILL destroy Dark Souls eventually. It ruins PvP for many players, especially relative noobs. (And if fewer and fewer noobs care to move beyond their noobness, the game will eventually dry up. Because PvC is fun, but the real long-term playability comes from PvP.

    Sorry for the long message. Thanks for your thoughts!






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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:00 pm

    Everything will change when the DLC arrives. For now, I highly suggest you practice counter backstab. It will teach you how to predict your opponent fishiness and will make you a better player.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by zackeeus on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:02 pm

    Okay thanks. Any tips on how to get in some practice reps? (Other than the obvious.) Any relevant PvC ways to practice?
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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:03 pm

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t3650-resource-threads-to-check-out-for-rookies-and-vets for general questions

    http://www.youtube.com/user/PhantomEWGF for backstab instruction (to learn to spot attempts against you)

    It won't destroy anything. Its a steep learning curve, but its not unfair and its fairly easily counterable most of the time (from what I've seen at least.)

    Its just like anything else, including real life competition, the experienced players whoop the crap out of everyone else with techniques more advanced than the newer players can even follow, much less counter.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by zackeeus on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:13 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    It won't destroy anything. Its a steep learning curve, but its not unfair and its fairly easily counterable most of the time (from what I've seen at least.)

    Its just like anything else, including real life competition, the experienced players whoop the crap out of everyone else with techniques more advanced than the newer players can even follow, much less counter.

    Don't misunderstand me. And perhaps I overstated my crappiness before. I'm not a bad player (aside from my difficulties with BS countering!). And of course, more skilled and experienced players can and should beat less skilled players.

    But it's HOW they are doing: by exploiting a less-than-perfectly designed system. Now, you could say that part of becoming experienced is to learn how to overcome the glitches or even exploit them yourself. Maybe so, but a lot of players like me WILL give up the game for what we perceive to be more level playing fields elsewhere. Because neither backstabbing nor being backstabbed constantly is much fun.

    We have all had the experience of a great fight in this game. It lasts a while, it ebbs and flows, different approaches yield different results. And when it's done--win or lose--it feels satisfying and energizing. That's why we play, right?! It's not just about accumulating souls and humanity. That stuff is meaningless. It's about the EXPERIENCE, right?! Well, for many (just read the posts in this forum), that experience is rare in Dark Souls and it's mostly due to this BS glitch/exploit.

    Right or wrong, THAT is the truth.

    P.S. Thanks for the tips/vids.
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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:21 pm

    I play for the experience, but I play to win.

    I will use, and would prefer others used, every skill they have, the best gear avalaible to them, and every dirty trick in the book, because that is the only way my experience has any meaning. Its only a victory worth having if it was earned using the full measure of my skill and knowledge of the system, which requires that my opponent does the same.

    Frankly, if the player is not willing to put in the effort to learn the system, I don't miss them.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by zackeeus on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:32 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:I play for the experience, but I play to win.

    I will use, and would prefer others used, every skill they have, the best gear avalaible to them, and every dirty trick in the book, because that is the only way my experience has any meaning. Its only a victory worth having if it was earned using the full measure of my skill and knowledge of the system, which requires that my opponent does the same.

    Very nicely expressed. I couldn't agree more with everything you've said here, and we mostly agree. BUT...

    If you stepped into the boxing ring to spar with somebody, you'd be wearing a regulation set of boxing gloves, right? If your opponent had barbed wire wrapped around his gloves and whipped your ***, you likely wouldn't say "That was fun! I really need to get myself some barbed wire so we can do it again." You'd say, "Ouch, that sucked. Someone ought to make it illegal to wrap your *&$! boxing gloves in &(#% barbed wire!"





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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:45 pm

    If its legal and I didn't do it, its my bad. I would nurse my wounds and either quit, adopt the strategy, or find an appropriate defense.

    Its what I do when people sneak illegal holds while wrestling (I take the last option). The experience may have sucked, but it is up to me to learn from it.

    Backstabbs are a part of the game. I use them because they're not against the rules of the game. Also, the backstab is likely only wonky on your screen while it looks legit on theirs, making perspective your enemy. You must learn to alter your perspective, as they have, and think a step ahead to stop the backstabs.

    I would prefer to have less lag as well, but as everything exploits lag, its not backstabs, its lag thats the issue. Backstabs are merely focused on due to the high damage.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Seignar on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:04 pm

    Sadly this is where I say that if you don't try something against it, it'll always be the same. The best tactics are the most used, that's how it is in all competitions is it not? Backstabbing at first is quite horrible (and it still is, but to a lesser degree for pros), but their comes a time that if you figured out how to get around it and it no longer becomes a problem.

    For example, how to handle barbed wire? When they are blocking, punch their fists so the gloves get in their face and they have the barbed wire on THEIR skin.

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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Tristan on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:19 pm

    I have to disagree with you Forum Pirate. The issues that are in this game are negatively affecting players new and old.

    Point 1: This is a video game. Hardly relatable to competitive sports like wrestling or boxing. There is competition, but to expect everyone to adopt cheap and/or trashy tactics or quit is a piss poor attitude to have.

    Point 2: The developers have recognized these issues and have tried to patch them over the life span of the games existance thus far. What this means is that they likely agree that BS phishing is not what the developers intended to happen. That being said, there is a fine line between Working as intended and working but disruptive. So, unforseen power and unintended problems both get handled when there is enough attention on them. Fair is equal opportunity to reach the same result regardless of the means it took you to get there. It's not equip x item and reach x level to succeed. Remember point 1. It is a game, and not real life.

    Point 3: Sports and competitions are regulated by certain practices and equipment that is provided to them by the organization that hosts it. One could say that the game has basic regulations, but point is you wouldn't be allowed or try to bring pro grade cleets to a little league baseball tournament in your local town. It's going to hurt someone or cause less activity. Everyone seems to assume there is equal opportunity in games(ie since I beat Dark Souls on level 1 I can invade with maxed out gear as DW at level 10-20). When you don't know exactly who you are up against.

    Example- I met someone in the burg last night that has never faced taurus before. I kicked the soldier with the flaming boulder off the open part in the steps and at the same time the host swung and fell off. I laughed and sent him a message apologizing for the mishap. He then asked if he was going the wrong way because he was obliterated by the taurus demon. These people will quit when you have maxed out lvl 10's ganking people. That's not fair competition.

    So I say bravo OP I agree.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:32 pm

    I disagree, I play sports for the same reason I play multiplayer in games. I want to win, and I want to work for it. I want my victory to be decided by skill and knowledge of the systems involved, and for my opponent to pull no punches in exploiting anything they can think of in an attempt to win within those systems.

    Cheap is a subjective term in this instance and has no place in a logical arguement.

    The developers can set whetever rules they wish, and I will abide or quit, same as with any sport. Wether or not is was their origional intention for the system to work as it did is irrelivant, as long as it works as it does one must deal accept it as a legitimate tactic or they only hurt their own enjoyment.

    If from didn't opt to put in such rules, bring it up with them or do as others have and make your own for organised events, but to expect anyone else to follow them outside of such events is folly and is setting ones self up for dissappointment and failure.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Seignar on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:36 pm

    There is competition, but to expect everyone to adopt cheap and/or trashy tactics or quit is a piss poor attitude to have.
    Bu sadly, this is what it MEANS to be competitive. You can be a competitive jerk (One who uses every tactic available) or you can be a competitive honor player (Who doesn't try these things...cheaply). This changes nothing except that the jerk is most likely to win, but he is still being competitive, just a bad sport. Very comparable to real life.

    I'm not saying backstab is good for the game, but that it how it is in the competitive scene until they make a rule (Nerfing) to it to say otherwise.

    Also, I don't consider invading a newbie fair PVP, just being plain mean.

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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Tristan on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:22 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:I disagree, I play sports for the same reason I play multiplayer in games. I want to win, and I want to work for it. I want my victory to be decided by skill and knowledge of the systems involved, and for my opponent to pull no punches in exploiting anything they can think of in an attempt to win within those systems.

    Cheap is a subjective term in this instance and has no place in a logical arguement.

    The developers can set whetever rules they wish, and I will abide or quit, same as with any sport. Wether or not is was their origional intention for the system to work as it did is irrelivant, as long as it works as it does one must deal accept it as a legitimate tactic or they only hurt their own enjoyment.

    If from didn't opt to put in such rules, bring it up with them or do as others have and make your own for organised events, but to expect anyone else to follow them outside of such events is folly and is setting ones self up for dissappointment and failure.

    You act as if anyone that doesn't think the way you do doesn't play to win. That since I don't wear Havels, DWGR, and BS phish I must not play to win. I certainly don't play because I like to lose! So you are saying that you wouldn't care if in a football game someone broke another person's arm and blamed it on it being a contact sport and wasn't being ridiculed for having unsportsman like conduct?

    Cheap is not subjective. I think we can all agree BS phishing is **** and grieving low levels is worse than ****.

    WHAT?? It's irrelevant in a video game to pay attention to how something was designed and try to balance the game's mechsnics?? Are you high?

    your last statement doesn't really address anything i've read in this thread. I will say that people shouldn't feel the need to setup rules outside of the game's regulations but clearly the fans did and therefore the regulations and equipment provided were flawed for competitive fairness. Again, FROM SOFTWARE is recognizing where the balance issues are and is continuing to patch unbalances.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by callipygias on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:29 pm

    zackeeus wrote: the real long-term playability comes from PvP.
    Maybe true for you, but not as a general statement. Most PvPers seems to think that way, but I love the game of Dark Souls, and for me (and many others, I'm sure) PvP is just another aspect of it.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:47 pm

    Tristan wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:I disagree, I play sports for the same reason I play multiplayer in games. I want to win, and I want to work for it. I want my victory to be decided by skill and knowledge of the systems involved, and for my opponent to pull no punches in exploiting anything they can think of in an attempt to win within those systems.

    Cheap is a subjective term in this instance and has no place in a logical arguement.

    The developers can set whetever rules they wish, and I will abide or quit, same as with any sport. Wether or not is was their origional intention for the system to work as it did is irrelivant, as long as it works as it does one must deal accept it as a legitimate tactic or they only hurt their own enjoyment.

    If from didn't opt to put in such rules, bring it up with them or do as others have and make your own for organised events, but to expect anyone else to follow them outside of such events is folly and is setting ones self up for dissappointment and failure.

    You act as if anyone that doesn't think the way you do doesn't play to win. That since I don't wear Havels, DWGR, and BS phish I must not play to win. I certainly don't play because I like to lose! So you are saying that you wouldn't care if in a football game someone broke another person's arm and blamed it on it being a contact sport and wasn't being ridiculed for having unsportsman like conduct?

    Cheap is not subjective. I think we can all agree BS phishing is **** and grieving low levels is worse than ****.

    WHAT?? It's irrelevant in a video game to pay attention to how something was designed and try to balance the game's mechsnics?? Are you high?

    your last statement doesn't really address anything i've read in this thread. I will say that people shouldn't feel the need to setup rules outside of the game's regulations but clearly the fans did and therefore the regulations and equipment provided were flawed for competitive fairness. Again, FROM SOFTWARE is recognizing where the balance issues are and is continuing to patch unbalances.
    If you're adding rules to how you play outside the rules of the game and outside of organised events, you're not playing to win. If you were playing to win, as in playing for the purpous of winning, you do whatever it takes short of cheating. Wether or not something is balanced doesn't matter when you're playing to win, you do it anyways because it works. Thats the bottom line. Competition isn't about fairness, its about winning.

    I agree that the game should be balanced, but if its not then doing only "fair" things isn't playing to win.

    For the record, I won't agree that bs punishing is whatever **** means, and I don't like griefing but the players who do so paid for the game and are operating within its rules so i wouldn't stop them if I could.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by zackeeus on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:48 pm

    Good discussion! I guess the disagreement comes down to what we perceive as constituting "cheating." BS is part of the game, so like or or not, it's not automatically cheating to BS someone. But exploiting a server lag (or whatever) is not an intended part of the game, so I would consider that cheating.

    Just because it's there and most people do it doesn't make it right or mean that it's not bad for the game. Since we're into sports analogies, think about professional baseball of the 90's and early 2000's. PED (i.e., steroids) were available, very widespread and technically not illegal. So lots of players engaged. Was it fair to those that decided not to? Forum Pirate is obviously one who would have said, "my competition is juicing--and getting rich off it--so it's part of the game and must therefore be okay."

    To be sure, that WAS the attitude of a lot of players then...and look where it got them in the long run. Severely damaged the game, not to mention the legacy of some all-time great players. The the-only-rule-is-that-there-are-no-rules attitude is Darwinian enough, but it's bad for the game. That was my original point.

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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by zackeeus on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:52 pm

    Forum Pirate: You are obviously a smart guy and I'm sure really good at this game. But alas, you also exemplify the disdainful f*** 'em attitude that is driving the average gamer in other directions.

    You obviously don't care and that's your right. Oh well.
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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:52 pm

    Forum's right, cheap us very subjective. BS fishing is a tactic used against Str weapons and spears, many consider it cheap (myself included) but they are tactics nonetheless. Also many consider WoG/GC spamming cheap, but it's because they're relatively new to the game and don't have experience countering it.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:57 pm

    Every attack of any kind exploits lag, by your definition all pvp combat in dks is cheating.

    Wether or not something is bad for a game is extremely difficult to quantify anyways. Thats one of the reasons I said it wasn't bad for the game. How would one judge wether or not something is bad for the game?

    I prefer fewer and better players who do whatever it takes. By my definition, that makes backstabing good for the game because it keeps the lazy players out.

    EDIT: its also not that I don't want others to enjoy the game, but each players enjoyment is determined by the player themselves. I will not be hobbled by feeling responsible for someone elses enjoyment.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:05 pm

    I have to agree though, glitching, hacking and chain backstabbing are universal cheap methods of playing the game.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Tristan on Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:45 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Every attack of any kind exploits lag, by your definition all pvp combat in dks is cheating.

    Wether or not something is bad for a game is extremely difficult to quantify anyways. Thats one of the reasons I said it wasn't bad for the game. How would one judge wether or not something is bad for the game?

    I prefer fewer and better players who do whatever it takes. By my definition, that makes backstabing good for the game because it keeps the lazy players out.

    EDIT: its also not that I don't want others to enjoy the game, but each players enjoyment is determined by the player themselves. I will not be hobbled by feeling responsible for someone elses enjoyment.

    First of all your first statement is very inaccurate. To generalize every attack to fit the same example as something that clearly redefines lag is moronic. In fact I think it's common knowledge that most generalizations are ignorant (in real life or otherwise).

    How ro judge whether or not something is bad in a video game? That is simple and most developers would agree if the majority of the player base has 3 doors to choose from (red, blue, and green) and they all choose the green door it may be something that is unbalanced (negative or bad). That is only one of several ways to effectively balance a game. Red, blue, and green should be equally as appealing as one another and when it isn't you have DWGR, Pinwheel, BS phishers.

    Back stabs are faulty and that is a fact. If you disagree you are now trolling.

    Now we are forming categories and ranks based on a philosophy that has no business being applied to the siruation in a game that has none? Fewer and better players? Fewer yes, but eventually you'll be the only one left pllaying to be "the best." You've been given the opportunity to accept that when exploits overrun a game (used primarily for enjoyment) it deters people. Maybe not you since you're all about the survival of the fittest in a virtual platform, but for the majority it is experience breaking. Take this information however you will, but if I ever fight you and you back stab and 1hko me from 10 ft in front of me, don't expect me to be nice.

    I can't stand elitism. It is the bane of gsmers in today's generation. Yeah, elitists are why gamers have bad reps.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by vatar5 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:59 pm

    Its like the box glitch user who uses lighting/chaos damage to OHKO poor newbies in Burg/Parish,it saddens me everytime I see my host die without mercy.
    But the logical way to "win" here is to either parry like a boss...three times,or chain BS or do the same thing as my opponent->box glitch.
    The game's mechanic makes it so someone better geared OR way more skilled will almost always win.
    The rest gets powned and have only lucky kills.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:06 pm

    Backstabs arn't fualty, the p2p system used is fualty, you do not determine wether or not I am trolling.

    Every type of attack exploits lag isn't an inaccurate statement. They may not always exploit lag (though that is debatable) but when I dodge an attack, and its hits anyways, which happens a lot, lag is being exploited, intentionally or otherwise. The very nature of lag in a pvp enviroment means that every attack exploits lag.

    Did you really just generalise and state that most generalisations are ignorant at the same time?

    I don't see backstabs as unbalanced, reguardless of what the devs or anyone else may think, (but to change the balance is their right) bad is also a subjective term, and inbalance is more interesting to me than balance, if everything is perfectly balanced then why bother with the game? your choice of gear or tactics would have no impact anyways, may as well be fighting with a tree using a balloon sword.

    Fualting elietism for gamers reputation is elietist. You are doing the same thing, you're just directing it in a different direction.

    I am done arguing however, you may cling to whatever beliefs you wish.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:32 pm

    I'll take that as a compliment.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

    Post by Tristan on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:37 pm

    I thought you were done arguing so it's more of a I disagree because your pretty offensive in this post. You don't present any facts and illustrate stubborness and no real knowledge of some of the terms and concepts you use.


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    Re: POV of a relative newbie

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